Do you think Time Manipulation will work well with MM's?
By
8-J,
Posted on: 2011-08-06 19:46 in Masterminds
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Amen. Thanks for posting this A-T
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Originally Posted by Computer
Silly me, I forgot to say Thank you very much Aett_Thorn!!
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Is that 12.5% the actual unbuffed number we are going to see for the mm version of the farsight power? Because if it is, that uberdonkulous!
Based on the post from AT, I think this set looks bad to the bone. The jury is still out on the healing effectiveness, but it looks solid other than that.
Defense buff --> check
Def and Res debuff --> check
The all important AV stomping regen debuff --> check
Healing --> maybe (I'm leaning toward probably)
Time warped zombies here I come!
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Regarding the HoT effect: It scales up well with your level, and CAN work in a pinch to keep even your minions alive when a single burst heal might not have.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
... Yeah. Not really liking those numbers in the least. And those are the /Defender/ numbers.
It looks like it'll be a lot weaker on the other three respective ATs, not to mention the sheer focus it wants. However, Masterminds are able to greatly benefit from the PbAoE Power. ... Ninja/Time. Hm. Also, Re: Temporal Mending? It may heal more over time than the other PBAoE heals? But it also has a significantly larger cooldown. A whole 10 seconds more. This is pretty major. Dunno how it would compare in a heavy IO world, but it's worth noting 8 vs. 18. |
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Originally Posted by Computer
*Drool*
I'm going to LOVE my new Ninjas/Time Manipulation Mastermind. It doesn't look like I can get the Ninjas (perhaps the Jounin) to the Defense cap, however with that huge -Tohit debuff from Time's Juncture coupled with its massive radius means that won't matter for non AV fights. Some things I don't like:
Edit: Silly me, I forgot to say Thank you very much Aett_Thorn!! |
Temporal Selection on your tier-2 pet before you get a second one is a great way to power through a tough fight, especially since it applied the accelerated property, which makes Temporal Mending more potent.
Yes. The current version of TM is pretty much what I said it was; it's not going to be all that good on MMs.
The heal's HoT component, to try to justify it's recharge, is about as weak as expected - it's a 137 up-front heal with a 36.75 HoT enhanced. While it will out-heal a standard PBAoE heal? This is over time, which is "Hrm".
Time's Juncture is definitely weakened, no doubt about it. It also enforces Melee MM Play, which is a bit of a tricky thing as it is. It's definitely not a bad power, but it'll keep you busy if you want the full debuffs applied.
All together, it's not a /bad/ set. But it's extremely active, and people who say Masterminds can afford to focus on it because they don't need to pay attention to their Primary, are bad masterminds. We're the most micro-managed AT in the game, with even a second of dropping our attention on our surroundings will lead to a sudden pet death and a massive damage loss.
Maybe I micromanage too hard? Or maybe not enough? If nothing else, Time will keep you busy.
TL;DR Final Thoughts - There's nothing really 'new' here. It's a hybrid set, something that Trick Arrow tried and failed to do. It's not an amazing set, it's a 'good' set. It's not exactly tuned to the Mastermind, however. If you like the swirly animations, go for it. But my personal verdict for now is "It's sub-par on MMs."
TM should work well with Bots.
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I disagree. It's not the best MM set but I think it has a lot to offer the discerning MM. To address some of your points:|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Yes. The current version of TM is pretty much what I said it was; it's not going to be all that good on MMs.
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Yes, the HoT is a bit weak, but it also helps the situation where you fire off your heal to heal one pet just before a different pet takes damage. Additionally you are neglecting the "Accelerated" buff. Even on SOs you can keep Temporal Selection permanently on two pets and they get the healing you provide them substantially increased (by about 50%). In Demon Summoning, for example, the Demon Prince and the Hellfire Gargoyle end up taking the most damage so placing Temporal Selection on them will mean that you are getting a lot more effectiveness from Temporal Mending. Essentially it's combining an AoE heal and a single target heal into one power. It might not be to everyone's taste but I think dismissing it as a weak AoE heal is a mistake.
Time's Juncture is weaker than the numbers Aett gave but it's still a pretty powerful debuff. Even unenhanced 9.38% to hit debuff and 15% damage debuff is quite a bit of extra toughness for your pets. Yes, melee-mastermind is not to everyone's taste but if you take a melee oriented pet set it works pretty well and even without TJ I think the set as a whole works.
As for the general "clickiness" of the set. It's no worse than a lot of other MM secondaries and better than some. Most of the powers are once-per-spawn (or less) so while it's more intensive than Traps it's no worse than some of the other set (Trick Arrow for example).
I'll also point out the stuff you neglected to mention:
Temporal Selection is a nice damage buff and when placed on your highest damage pets will increase their damage AND help keep them alive when they draw aggro.
Distortion Field and Time Stop provide extra control which helps keep your pets alive
Farsight gives your pets a nice defense bonus AND increases their to hit by the same amount as Tactics. Given the current Incarnate Trials Tactics is almost essential for MMs if they want their pets to be able to hit anything but Farsight allows you to skip it (or take it and slot less accuracy in your pets).
Slowed Response is a nice resistance debuff for more damage.
Chrono shift is a nice emergency heal (it's also a recharge buff but I'd save it more for the emergency heal if I were soloing a MM).
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Really? I'm not trying to be rude here, but have you tried it out? At high level? Put it through it's paces? You know all of that FOR SURE, without ever even having tried the set?
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Yes. The current version of TM is pretty much what I said it was; it's not going to be all that good on MMs.
The heal's HoT component, to try to justify it's recharge, is about as weak as expected - it's a 137 up-front heal with a 36.75 HoT enhanced. While it will out-heal a standard PBAoE heal? This is over time, which is "Hrm". Time's Juncture is definitely weakened, no doubt about it. It also enforces Melee MM Play, which is a bit of a tricky thing as it is. It's definitely not a bad power, but it'll keep you busy if you want the full debuffs applied. All together, it's not a /bad/ set. But it's extremely active, and people who say Masterminds can afford to focus on it because they don't need to pay attention to their Primary, are bad masterminds. We're the most micro-managed AT in the game, with even a second of dropping our attention on our surroundings will lead to a sudden pet death and a massive damage loss. Maybe I micromanage too hard? Or maybe not enough? If nothing else, Time will keep you busy. TL;DR Final Thoughts - There's nothing really 'new' here. It's a hybrid set, something that Trick Arrow tried and failed to do. It's not an amazing set, it's a 'good' set. It's not exactly tuned to the Mastermind, however. If you like the swirly animations, go for it. But my personal verdict for now is "It's sub-par on MMs." |
"I have something to say! It's better to burn out then to fade away!"
I had a brief taste of time manip on a defender (I will try the MM version, too) For a defender, the power selections are going to be CROWDED early on.
My point in stopping by is to promote the utility of Time Juncture. It's level 4 on defenders, not too much later on MMs. PLEASE, don't say it's a to-hit debuff and some other debuffs. It's a 25% damage debuff on defenders boosted to 30% if they have Time Crawl in place.
Time Crawl doesn't seem to be useful much on 2 or 3 shot hellion minions, but as part of a hard target strategy, it's part of a layered debuff process that can neuter really tough targets. It reminds me of sonic siphon.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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Yes, but we can't SLOT for damage debuff, and NOBODY is going to slot it for Slow. Therefore, we call it what will be the most logical thing to slot for, -tohit.|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
I had a brief taste of time manip on a defender (I will try the MM version, too) For a defender, the power selections are going to be CROWDED early on.
My point in stopping by is to promote the utility of Time Juncture. It's level 4 on defenders, not too much later on MMs. PLEASE, don't say it's a to-hit debuff and some other debuffs. It's a 25% damage debuff on defenders boosted to 30% if they have Time Crawl in place. Time Crawl doesn't seem to be useful much on 2 or 3 shot hellion minions, but as part of a hard target strategy, it's part of a layered debuff process that can neuter really tough targets. It reminds me of sonic siphon. |
Slow slotting isn't going to be that useful, but -tohit? Might as well be +def. Plus, if you really want to twink out on the slotting, you'd go with six slots. Five Dampened Spirits and the Dark Watcher's Despair proc unless you REALLY want that Psi resist. It's a toggle, so that chance for -recharge will have a chance to fire off every ten seconds.
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I've been testing it since it came out on Beta, at 50, with a few billion worth of IOs. Not exactly hard to ask to be level 50 nor getting PVP IOs or Purple IOs for 1 Influence a pop.|
Originally Posted by Paladiamors
Really? I'm not trying to be rude here, but have you tried it out? At high level? Put it through it's paces? You know all of that FOR SURE, without ever even having tried the set?
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So, yes to your questions, except the last. Since I HAVE tried it out.
Edit: Let me do you one better. I'll do it again.
Bots/Time, fully IO'd. PVP and Purple.
No Items.
Final Destination.
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Well then I apologize. It just sounded like you were making assumptions based on numbers and no actual experience with the set.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
I've been testing it since it came out on Beta, at 50, with a few billion worth of IOs. Not exactly hard to ask to be level 50 nor getting PVP IOs or Purple IOs for 1 Influence a pop.
So, yes to your questions, except the last. Since I HAVE tried it out. Edit: Let me do you one better. I'll do it again. Bots/Time, fully IO'd. PVP and Purple. No Items. Final Destination. |
"I have something to say! It's better to burn out then to fade away!"
Okay, been doing it again. I'm more or less ignoring anything Incarnate-esque besides the Alpha Slot. I'm a firm believer in "If a set needs incarnate crap to be viable, it's probably bad. Or Dark Armor, which is amazing."
Also because I don't feel like farming Trials all night. Yet.
Anywho, the current build is decent. Some jerkfaces are buying Panacea's like jerks, or buying out popular recipes and putting them up for max Influence. Yep. Gotta love the Beta Trolls. But I'd say it's definitely a multi-billion build none the less.
I'll give Time one thing? Distortion Field is amazing in farming, but the lack of -Res Patch doesn't make me happy. Sure it has a PBAoE -Res/-DEF debuff but it's targeted, which is rough in farming.
Temporal Mending isn't much different from any other AoE heal, when IO'd to hell and the pets soft capped to defense. I would say it'd probably be amazing on pets with high levels of Resistance, but Time Manipulation isn't a +RES set, so that's out. All it really is, in testing, is an AoE heal with a huge cooldown for little benefit.
Sure, it's a bit stronger with the buff, but eh. I wasn't /impressed/. Heck, the buff slotted with +Healing is sexy all on it's own. Practically +300% Regen is nice.
Time Crawl is a lot more tedious than you may think. While soloing en-masse, you might toss it on a boss and then just let the AoE slaughter of your pets begin? Buuuuut yeah. You're going to forget about it generally in AoE battles, which is where Masterminds tend to enjoy.
AV's? Well sure, you should be firing it off whenever needed. But... it's a bit of an endurance nommer.
I think my biggest issue with Time Manipulation is that it uses the Mastermind Endurance Coefficient, which is really brutal with a twitchy set. I bottom out extremely quickly, considering how toggle-heavy MMs are. I might need to consider Cardiac over Spirituality in this scenario. Probably, yes. Time Manipulation is pretty endurance heavy.
Do note I refuse to acknowledge Ageless, because nobody gets that excuse.
... 'cept Dark Armor.
I don't know /what to say/ with this set for Masterminds specifically. It's a Hybrid Set. It does a bit of anything but nothing amazingly. I could see it being a good farming set, probably not the /best/. I don't think it'll knock Traps off it's throne, even with a PBAoE heal.
I think it's a compliment to the arsenal. I see people trying it out, obviously, when it hits live. I mean, Chrono Shift is a nice +50% Recharge, but it needs a total +300% Recharge to be perma.
This is not cheap to do individually, as that suggests a total of 150% Global Recharge, as you count Chrono Shift's 50%. Hasten would be 70%. So you'd need another 80% of Global Recharge.
Masterminds are probably the hardest AT to fit set bonus +Recharge in. 7.5% x 5 Luck of the Gambler noted, being 37.5%. So another 42.5%. (Farsight, Combat Jumping or Hover, Maneuvers, Weave, Vengeance or A/PPP Shield.)
We'll start with the Time Manipulation set itself, and we're going to ignore Purples for now.
Temporal Mending = Doctored Wounds +5%
Time's Juncture = Dark Watcher's Despair +5%
Temporal Selection = Doctored Wounds +5%
Distortion Field = Basilisk's Gaze +7.5%
Chrono Shift = Doctored Wounds +5%
Time Stop = Basilisk's Gaze +7.5%
We'll stop here, for 35% of our 42.5% needed.
You could slot Tactics with Adjusted Targeting, granting another 5% but sacrificing Gaussians. At this point, you need 2.5% to Perma.
Taking a personal attack and slotting it with Decimation, or anything of that like. This would do it.
Now, with all this, you're going to sacrifice anything but POSSIBLY a S/L Soft Cap. MAYBE. I personally do not like relying on Prot Bot shields for an S/L Cap, because that means I couldn't do this with any other MM set.
Is it worth it for Perma Chrono Shift? Well, it gets you Perma Hasten as well... but is Time Manipulation a recharge hungry set? And what about Chrono Shift's Heal and Endurance boosts?
They're sadly not something you should keep the power on cooldown for. The +Recharge is far more substantial of a boon. By far.
If you go with a Patron or Aux Shield, you can hit safely huddle the soft cap. Although i know many Masterminds who prefer a +Resistance shield. That said, with Bots at least, you can sit at your 65%+ S/L Resistance and 45%ish to your varying defenses with the Bot Shield.
Yes, Time's Juncture is effective +Defense due to it's -ToHit, but it doesn't do squat to ranged targets and AVs will shrug the -ToHit off decently.
So, let's finalize this.
1) Is it better than Bots/Traps? No, I don't think so. Traps has the benefit of a few extra bodies to help you out, isn't as endurance draining, and it's Mez Protection helps prevent you from any number of accidents. Caltrops is still godly as all sin. Traps is superior against AVs, no questions asked. Superior -Res/Defense (Acid Mortar's constant check against it and ability to proc Interface, I think?), and Time Crawl/Time Stop aren't touching Poison Trap's OBLITERATION of -Regen. While Chrono Shift is probably the major shining light here, which I won't deny is a good +50% Recharge power. Oh, and I guess it heals. For Farming, I'll willingly compare Caltrops to Distortion Field. Why? You'd know how amazing Caltrops is at mitigation if you've used it before. And Poison Trap, again, does the same job as Distortion Field.
And, to note on all this? Traps effects persist a LOT longer in most cases, thusly using far less Endurance over time, while Time Manipulation constantly reapplies. This is part of that Endurance issue i mentioned before.
As it is, Time is a set that needs a lot of Recharge, and is thusly an IO Baby. A lot of it's powers seem to acknowledge the fact Chrono Shift is a +50% Recharge Power, but that alone isn't enough.
At the end of the day, is /Time a bad set? No. But is it the new OP? Goodness no.
/Dark, /Traps/, and /Thermal all seem superior to me still. Especially the last two.
Phew.
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Thanks for the low down on TM Reppu. I guess it's time to try and prove yu wrong in some way... XD |
Originally Posted by Reppu
Okay, been doing it again. I'm more or less ignoring anything Incarnate-esque besides the Alpha Slot. I'm a firm believer in "If a set needs incarnate crap to be viable, it's probably bad. Or Dark Armor, which is amazing."
Also because I don't feel like farming Trials all night. Yet. Anywho, the current build is decent. Some jerkfaces are buying Panacea's like jerks, or buying out popular recipes and putting them up for max Influence. Yep. Gotta love the Beta Trolls. But I'd say it's definitely a multi-billion build none the less. I'll give Time one thing? Distortion Field is amazing in farming, but the lack of -Res Patch doesn't make me happy. Sure it has a PBAoE -Res/-DEF debuff but it's targeted, which is rough in farming. Temporal Mending isn't much different from any other AoE heal, when IO'd to hell and the pets soft capped to defense. I would say it'd probably be amazing on pets with high levels of Resistance, but Time Manipulation isn't a +RES set, so that's out. All it really is, in testing, is an AoE heal with a huge cooldown for little benefit. Sure, it's a bit stronger with the buff, but eh. I wasn't /impressed/. Heck, the buff slotted with +Healing is sexy all on it's own. Practically +300% Regen is nice. Time Crawl is a lot more tedious than you may think. While soloing en-masse, you might toss it on a boss and then just let the AoE slaughter of your pets begin? Buuuuut yeah. You're going to forget about it generally in AoE battles, which is where Masterminds tend to enjoy. AV's? Well sure, you should be firing it off whenever needed. But... it's a bit of an endurance nommer. I think my biggest issue with Time Manipulation is that it uses the Mastermind Endurance Coefficient, which is really brutal with a twitchy set. I bottom out extremely quickly, considering how toggle-heavy MMs are. I might need to consider Cardiac over Spirituality in this scenario. Probably, yes. Time Manipulation is pretty endurance heavy. Do note I refuse to acknowledge Ageless, because nobody gets that excuse. ... 'cept Dark Armor. I don't know /what to say/ with this set for Masterminds specifically. It's a Hybrid Set. It does a bit of anything but nothing amazingly. I could see it being a good farming set, probably not the /best/. I don't think it'll knock Traps off it's throne, even with a PBAoE heal. I think it's a compliment to the arsenal. I see people trying it out, obviously, when it hits live. I mean, Chrono Shift is a nice +50% Recharge, but it needs a total +300% Recharge to be perma. This is not cheap to do individually, as that suggests a total of 150% Global Recharge, as you count Chrono Shift's 50%. Hasten would be 70%. So you'd need another 80% of Global Recharge. Masterminds are probably the hardest AT to fit set bonus +Recharge in. 7.5% x 5 Luck of the Gambler noted, being 37.5%. So another 42.5%. (Farsight, Combat Jumping or Hover, Maneuvers, Weave, Vengeance or A/PPP Shield.) We'll start with the Time Manipulation set itself, and we're going to ignore Purples for now. Temporal Mending = Doctored Wounds +5% Time's Juncture = Dark Watcher's Despair +5% Temporal Selection = Doctored Wounds +5% Distortion Field = Basilisk's Gaze +7.5% Chrono Shift = Doctored Wounds +5% Time Stop = Basilisk's Gaze +7.5% We'll stop here, for 35% of our 42.5% needed. You could slot Tactics with Adjusted Targeting, granting another 5% but sacrificing Gaussians. At this point, you need 2.5% to Perma. Taking a personal attack and slotting it with Decimation, or anything of that like. This would do it. Now, with all this, you're going to sacrifice anything but POSSIBLY a S/L Soft Cap. MAYBE. I personally do not like relying on Prot Bot shields for an S/L Cap, because that means I couldn't do this with any other MM set. Is it worth it for Perma Chrono Shift? Well, it gets you Perma Hasten as well... but is Time Manipulation a recharge hungry set? And what about Chrono Shift's Heal and Endurance boosts? They're sadly not something you should keep the power on cooldown for. The +Recharge is far more substantial of a boon. By far. If you go with a Patron or Aux Shield, you can hit safely huddle the soft cap. Although i know many Masterminds who prefer a +Resistance shield. That said, with Bots at least, you can sit at your 65%+ S/L Resistance and 45%ish to your varying defenses with the Bot Shield. Yes, Time's Juncture is effective +Defense due to it's -ToHit, but it doesn't do squat to ranged targets and AVs will shrug the -ToHit off decently. So, let's finalize this. 1) Is it better than Bots/Traps? No, I don't think so. Traps has the benefit of a few extra bodies to help you out, isn't as endurance draining, and it's Mez Protection helps prevent you from any number of accidents. Caltrops is still godly as all sin. Traps is superior against AVs, no questions asked. Superior -Res/Defense (Acid Mortar's constant check against it and ability to proc Interface, I think?), and Time Crawl/Time Stop aren't touching Poison Trap's OBLITERATION of -Regen. While Chrono Shift is probably the major shining light here, which I won't deny is a good +50% Recharge power. Oh, and I guess it heals. For Farming, I'll willingly compare Caltrops to Distortion Field. Why? You'd know how amazing Caltrops is at mitigation if you've used it before. And Poison Trap, again, does the same job as Distortion Field. And, to note on all this? Traps effects persist a LOT longer in most cases, thusly using far less Endurance over time, while Time Manipulation constantly reapplies. This is part of that Endurance issue i mentioned before. As it is, Time is a set that needs a lot of Recharge, and is thusly an IO Baby. A lot of it's powers seem to acknowledge the fact Chrono Shift is a +50% Recharge Power, but that alone isn't enough. At the end of the day, is /Time a bad set? No. But is it the new OP? Goodness no. /Dark, /Traps/, and /Thermal all seem superior to me still. Especially the last two. Phew. |
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Regarding the bolded part:|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Okay, been doing it again. I'm more or less ignoring anything Incarnate-esque besides the Alpha Slot. I'm a firm believer in "If a set needs incarnate crap to be viable, it's probably bad. Or Dark Armor, which is amazing."
Also because I don't feel like farming Trials all night. Yet. -snip- I think my biggest issue with Time Manipulation is that it uses the Mastermind Endurance Coefficient, which is really brutal with a twitchy set. I bottom out extremely quickly, considering how toggle-heavy MMs are. I might need to consider Cardiac over Spirituality in this scenario. Probably, yes. Time Manipulation is pretty endurance heavy. Do note I refuse to acknowledge Ageless, because nobody gets that excuse. ... 'cept Dark Armor. -snip- As it is, Time is a set that needs a lot of Recharge, and is thusly an IO Baby. A lot of it's powers seem to acknowledge the fact Chrono Shift is a +50% Recharge Power, but that alone isn't enough. At the end of the day, is /Time a bad set? No. But is it the new OP? Goodness no. /Dark, /Traps/, and /Thermal all seem superior to me still. Especially the last two. Phew. |
Unless they changed something in the switch from Closed to Open beta, you can still buy Empyrean Merits for 1 inf in Oroborus and get your Incarnate stuff damn fast by importing a few moneybags characters from Live to bankroll some heavy incarnate unlocking. This is to facilitate testing of the Underground at various levels of Incarnate abilities.
Regarding the second part:
Ageless can work well with builds other than Dark Armor. I have an end-sucking Crab build that runs nine toggles unless traveling. I used to have to stock up on blues constantly unless doing a Keyes, and then watch my end use on Keyes due to having only greens simply because I went Nerve as my Alpha for the ED-bypassing extra +defense to Maneuvers and TT: Maneuvers. Her build isn't even complete yet and she's softcapped to everything but Psi in normal content, and only something like .5% from that.
Regarding the final part:
While I do not have enough experience with the other sets to run a true comparison, I can only speak from what I have seen so far in the beta. You are doing a disservice to the set by focusing only on getting the tier-9 to a permanent status. That is NEVER a balance point for any powerset. Let's look at what else happens with the set when you have 300% recharge.
Temporal Selection becomes easy to keep on all of your pets, boosting damage and survivability by itself AND making the other buffs more potent, as well as making Temporal Mending heal better on them as well as more often.
Chrono Shift can be slotted with Efficacy Adapter rather than doctored wounds, and provide better +recovery while STILL giving a +5% recharge bonus. (Speaking of which, if we are to take 5 LotG +recharge IO's into consideration, then your two Basilisk's Gaze sets with 7.5% values are wasted due to the 'only 5 of one numeric bonus' rule of IO bonus effects, so we can re-slot those powers with other sets to avoid wasting bonuses that will not matter. My personal preference would be for Lockdown with the proc.)
Also, I don't know about you, but I'd rather slot Regenerative Tissue in one power rather than only Doctored Wounds in two or three. You get the same +5% global recharge with the same number of slots, and you get a chance for extra +regen from the proc. This one would go to Temporal Mending so that the set could be slotted earlier, and ALSO helps alleviate the fact that we have replaced the slotting on Chrono Shift for better End recovery instead of being a 'heelor' power. The set already has one decent heal in it, why relegate the Tier-9 to that duty as well when one can more easily rely on an earlier power and allow the set bonuses for +heal to enhance its capabilities?
Time Crawl becomes simplicity itself to stack on a single hard target in a recharge-heavy build as well, and while it doesn't have the raw power of other debuff sets, it IS your primary debuffing tool since TC is what sets Delayed on a foe and makes all of your debuffs more potent on them. Keeping Delayed there for another application of Time Crawl makes even Time Crawl more effective.
You also seem to take no consideration for ally buffs. I don't know about you, but I don't solo all the time. Sure, it's a good idea to build for solo survivability, but the game is NOT balanced around a purely solo experience. It is also most definitely not balanced around farming or soloing at x8, so take those out of consideration entirely as well. On a team, Time Manipulation, even with Mastermind values, will find MANY uses.
Finally, you're ONLY considering Bots in your choice of Primary here, this is a mistake since the set has synergy with another MM primary: Necromancy. All of the Necro-pets have attacks that do -tohit, this will stack with the -tohit from Time's Juncture to add to total survivability. The more -tohit you have, the less +def you need.
Now, admittedly I haven't tried a Necromind at 50 just yet, but I am having a ton of fun with Entropy in First Ward levelling up normally. The only bump I hit was the first mission with Carnival of Light slapping me around since that was also the first mission I hit after the patch that reduced TJ's debuffs to NOT INSANE levels and I had to get used to the reduction in -tohit.
You're welcome, all, for bringing you some of the details. It's been sitting on my computer for so long, just waiting to get out.
Now, obviously some of the numbers are off, as they changed in Closed Beta. If anyone wants to get me the new numbers, I'd be more than willing to update my info.
Happy Hunting!
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Those bonuses have the same value, but a different name. They all stack.
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Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
Chrono Shift can be slotted with Efficacy Adapter rather than doctored wounds, and provide better +recovery while STILL giving a +5% recharge bonus. (Speaking of which, if we are to take 5 LotG +recharge IO's into consideration, then your two Basilisk's Gaze sets with 7.5% values are wasted due to the 'only 5 of one numeric bonus' rule of IO bonus effects, so we can re-slot those powers with other sets to avoid wasting bonuses that will not matter. My personal preference would be for Lockdown with the proc.)
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You say that like it's a bad thing |
Originally Posted by Reppu
At the end of the day, is /Time a bad set? No. But is it the new OP? Goodness no.
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. We have enough OP sets int he game, we don't really need more. I'd much rather the devs add more solid middle of the road sets than keep adding sets which are more powerful than the previous sets.
After a couple hours, I can only say I glimpsed at the time set. It appears to be a very up front kind of mastermind/defender, which I like. I play my storms, my trappers, my colds, my kinetics and my rad defenders all up front and personal. Getting used to which icons are for which teammate or teammate wiil be a challenge to maximize the effects. I can see time crawl as being like followup in the melee attack sets. I see the Time: Heal over Time (got to memorize the terms) as buffs to regeneration not necessarily heal other or even aid other. Stacking Heal over time on necros, demons, maybe mercs with the medic shows promise. I see all the time sets proliferations as being crowded to get the stacking going. Taking pool powers will be some of Sophie's choice as to which to keep or which to delay. There is a lot more here in Time than +recharge.
In short, I am pleasantly surprised by the variety of powers without a whiff of over-powered. I do think Time Juncture is the bread and butter especially of a tankermind build.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
Regarding the bolded part:
Unless they changed something in the switch from Closed to Open beta, you can still buy Empyrean Merits for 1 inf in Oroborus and get your Incarnate stuff damn fast by importing a few moneybags characters from Live to bankroll some heavy incarnate unlocking. This is to facilitate testing of the Underground at various levels of Incarnate abilities. Regarding the second part: Ageless can work well with builds other than Dark Armor. I have an end-sucking Crab build that runs nine toggles unless traveling. I used to have to stock up on blues constantly unless doing a Keyes, and then watch my end use on Keyes due to having only greens simply because I went Nerve as my Alpha for the ED-bypassing extra +defense to Maneuvers and TT: Maneuvers. Her build isn't even complete yet and she's softcapped to everything but Psi in normal content, and only something like .5% from that. Regarding the final part: While I do not have enough experience with the other sets to run a true comparison, I can only speak from what I have seen so far in the beta. You are doing a disservice to the set by focusing only on getting the tier-9 to a permanent status. That is NEVER a balance point for any powerset. Let's look at what else happens with the set when you have 300% recharge. Temporal Selection becomes easy to keep on all of your pets, boosting damage and survivability by itself AND making the other buffs more potent, as well as making Temporal Mending heal better on them as well as more often. Chrono Shift can be slotted with Efficacy Adapter rather than doctored wounds, and provide better +recovery while STILL giving a +5% recharge bonus. (Speaking of which, if we are to take 5 LotG +recharge IO's into consideration, then your two Basilisk's Gaze sets with 7.5% values are wasted due to the 'only 5 of one numeric bonus' rule of IO bonus effects, so we can re-slot those powers with other sets to avoid wasting bonuses that will not matter. My personal preference would be for Lockdown with the proc.) Also, I don't know about you, but I'd rather slot Regenerative Tissue in one power rather than only Doctored Wounds in two or three. You get the same +5% global recharge with the same number of slots, and you get a chance for extra +regen from the proc. This one would go to Temporal Mending so that the set could be slotted earlier, and ALSO helps alleviate the fact that we have replaced the slotting on Chrono Shift for better End recovery instead of being a 'heelor' power. The set already has one decent heal in it, why relegate the Tier-9 to that duty as well when one can more easily rely on an earlier power and allow the set bonuses for +heal to enhance its capabilities? Time Crawl becomes simplicity itself to stack on a single hard target in a recharge-heavy build as well, and while it doesn't have the raw power of other debuff sets, it IS your primary debuffing tool since TC is what sets Delayed on a foe and makes all of your debuffs more potent on them. Keeping Delayed there for another application of Time Crawl makes even Time Crawl more effective. You also seem to take no consideration for ally buffs. I don't know about you, but I don't solo all the time. Sure, it's a good idea to build for solo survivability, but the game is NOT balanced around a purely solo experience. It is also most definitely not balanced around farming or soloing at x8, so take those out of consideration entirely as well. On a team, Time Manipulation, even with Mastermind values, will find MANY uses. Finally, you're ONLY considering Bots in your choice of Primary here, this is a mistake since the set has synergy with another MM primary: Necromancy. All of the Necro-pets have attacks that do -tohit, this will stack with the -tohit from Time's Juncture to add to total survivability. The more -tohit you have, the less +def you need. Now, admittedly I haven't tried a Necromind at 50 just yet, but I am having a ton of fun with Entropy in First Ward levelling up normally. The only bump I hit was the first mission with Carnival of Light slapping me around since that was also the first mission I hit after the patch that reduced TJ's debuffs to NOT INSANE levels and I had to get used to the reduction in -tohit. |
Ugh. I knew I should have detailed the other primaries more. But I also feel I shouldn't be the ONLY person giving a detailed response of the set.
1) In regards to Ouroboros, I wasn't aware of that. Oh well, I STILL don't advocate the REQUIREMENT of Incarnate Powers to make a set viable. Period. End of discussion.
2) Read 1.
3) Okay, this'll take a bit longer obviously. Why did I focus on getting Chrono Shift to permanent status? Because it's the same logic as Radiation Emission, where the penultimate goal is a permanent Accelerated Metabolism. A permanent +50% Recharge to the team is going to go an extremely long way toward increasing overall performance, flat out.
As for slotting it with +Endurance, granted I could see one doing that? The +Endurance component is for all of thirty seconds during it. Would it help with some of the endurance problems? Sure. In fact, it might very damn well be the superior way to slot it. I never said my testing was /perfect/, mind you. But it did save me a slot for other powers, so myeh.
As for Regen Tissue being used in a clickable power? Nah. Pass. I don't like procs like that, used like that. Personal preference, moving on.
As for Time Crawl, I'm unsure of how much of it stacks, per-say. Didn't really bother to find out! That aside, my points from before stands; it has a high endurance cost, and it's hard to keep on /multiple targets/. Using it on a single target BETTER not be hard, or we have people with playing issues.
As for ally buffs... uh? Yes, while my testing did focus on soloing, team play was easily monitored as well. The Mastermind forums have always prided themselves on their solo merit, and complimenting team viability into this. Remember, a Mastermind is only doing their primary job of /damage/ if their pets are surviving. You need to maximize your own survivability and your pets far more than anything else, as NOTHING else can ensure your damage as much as that.
Chrono Shift's +50% Recharge is amazing to the team, yes. I'm not doing SO testing because the SO game bores me. A perma Chrono Shift sounds like it'll be many levels of amazing. Temporal Selection is also an /amazing/ buff, flat out. But it obviously has the 'weakness' noted for Masterminds. The set, as noted before, is a powerful /hybrid/ set, doing many things well, but not /better/.
As for Necrominding with Time Manipulation? I can see the Synergy with Necros -ToHit, but let me counter that with the fact Bots (And Thugs) offer substantial +Defense, which uses the same logic of your -ToHit stacking. If you stack together +Defense and -ToHit, they're effectively the same stat. Your argument is sort of... invalid. I can EASILY tell you how the two sets, AKA Necro and Time, will play together by the numbers alone.
I chose Bots (And Thugs) due to their dominance in the playing field. They're easily the most (Two most) popular MM primaries, and was (were) worth focusing on.
But, in regards to Necrominding? My opinion that single-target damage sets do NOT do well in an AoE centric game still apply. Necro's single-target damage focus is made redundant against AVs, since -ToHit debuffs are neutered against them. I personally don't feel Necrominding is all /that/ good. They're pretty well designed, the zombies? But it's a single target set with emphasis on a debuff that's one of the most highly resisted in the game.
The Lich and Time's Juncture might provide some hysterical AoE -ToHit, but... Time's Juncture isn't going to be that much better than Fluffy from Dark, or Darkest Night. Or... any of that. Dark Miasma is still going to offer the best overall synergy, which it should. Dark Miasma is a pretty specialized set, while Time Manipulation is a hybrid set.
Bottom line is? I agree. It has synergy with Zombies, as well as any pet set with a +Defense component.
... 'cept Ninjas. Their numbers suck. Well, I don't know. Maybe it'll make them better, but their lack of Resistances is sooooo painful.
The numbers look pretty solid, synergies as well. Will be testing with the bottom of the barrel (ninja) as time permits.
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
Bottom of the barrel would be mercenaries, not Ninjas! That aside, I think the numbers are a little too low for /Masterminds/. Due to the hybrid nature of the set, it had to have lower numbers than the specialized ones. It makes sense.
But I feel the differences on an MM.
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I'd say that's debatable, but give the advantage to mercs because they are ranged, so generally more survivable. In the right circumstances, either can be stronger though. /shrug. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
Bottom of the barrel would be mercenaries, not Ninjas! That aside, I think the numbers are a little too low for /Masterminds/. Due to the hybrid nature of the set, it had to have lower numbers than the specialized ones. It makes sense.
But I feel the differences on an MM. |
I had very little time to muck with /time tonight (beta server shut down almost right after I got home)... but I think it would go just fine with either set. Lots of slows to keep things at range vs. mercs... and defs + -tohit to go well with ninja in melee range. Stuff inside your pbaoe aura is basically capped vs. ninja (they were at 35% with maneuvers & the /time +def). Throw the pet +def +res stuff in there and you're solid. Not to mention the heal over time is perfect .... AND the single target buff gives 300% regen slotted in addition to the other stuff.
So... I only had a couple mins to actually play with it in mission, but, as a guy who has specialized on MMs and played a ton of them... I got a fairly favorable impression from that already. It will not be bottom of the barrel. MMs won't benefit as much from the t9, but it is what it is - I'll probably save it for a clutch heal & +end.
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
I'd question your experience, by merit of Ninjas being the biggest micro-heavy petset of the lot. If you're capable of juggling the Jounin's needing proper set up, the positioning of the Oni, and leashing the Genins, while also able to constantly use all of Time's powers fully? I salute your micro-management prowess.
And going by the fact you said you had very little time to test it... ahem. Moving on...
The Heal over Time is hardly "Perfect". It's left me wanting when any pets take damage with out innate Resistances. And since Ninjas are one of the two pets with out any Resistance...
The 300% Regen you mentioned is also pretty lackluster for pets, their base HP is too horrible to make it worthwhile. For allies, it's great! No doubt about that.
I think it falls down to this; Time has the same problem a lot of MM secondaries have, and that it offers no Resistance in any shape or form, and it's heal is a weaker burst with a hefty cooldown. Resistance means far more to a pet than Defense does, although having both is key. But 90% Resistance beats 45% Defense, period.
Considering I had Bots being one-shot'd during my test runs, it's painful. Sure, you can re-summon, but that's not the point here. I also never claimed Time was "Bottom of the Barrel", but it definitely left me wanting.
I'll sum it up like this; Nobody cares how well it does farming, because Masterminds can farm with any secondary. So, let's focus on teaming.
/Dark offers the most important Resistance in the game right now, being Energy. It offers a better -To Hit/-DMG debuff, a better -DEF/-RES Debuff, a superior heal, some defense, an amazing secondary pet, a comparable hold, and another -To Hit debuff.
/Traps offers one of the best powers in the game, Caltrops. That aside, it has one of the best -Regen powers in the game, a good -To Hit debuff, Triage Beacon is RETARDED if you get a Panacea Proc, FFG is one of the best Mastermind powers in the game, PERIOD, Acid Mortar is the superior -Res/-Def power, even if it is "Random", it's able to reliably proc A.Heel so GG, and Web Grenade is a surprisingly amount of -Recharge and Slow if that's your thing. Traps also has skippable powers so you have a LOT more freedom.
I shouldn't have to Describe /Thermal. Thermal's freaking amazing. I learned how amazing it was by my own testing, and wow. Resistance and Healing is one of the best, if not the BEST, way to keep Pets alive and kicking. Combined with having some of the most devastating debuffs in the game? Thermal won me over through blood and tears.
Now, Time isn't a bad set. By all means it's not. But the PBAoE Heal + HoT is very weak on Masterminds. It can get the job done, but it won't do it well with out the buff on someone. And sadly that buff is a little gimped on a Pet. Sucks, but it's true. Still, I like the Heal. I just know it's weak on Masterminds.
The application of Time Crawl is hard to upkeep with normal skill levels of micromanagement. It's possible, mind you. It's also not worth bothering with on teams unless there's a single difficult target you can make your *****. And since Time uses the few debuffs heavily resisted by AVs... >_>
Slowed Response is good for what it is. No complaints that aren't the same as Melt Armor's.
Time's Juncture is neutered on Masterminds, to say the least. It's not a bad power still, but damn is it weakened.
Temporal Selection makes me cry because I know it would be better on another AT, but other than that? Amazing buff. No complaints. Wish the cooldown was shorter, of course.
The Hold is a standard hold that can be pretty spiffy. Hooray.
Farsight annoys me because all it is is +Defense and nothing more. Well, and a ToHit buff but that's not what I mean. FFG is so amazing because of it's Mez Protection. The PbAoE +Defense Auras are amazing due to their +Resistance numbers. Farsight gets you and your pets closer to the softcap, but Resistance is the /key/ here. Especially with such a weaker burst heal. Farsight is a /good/ power, but it personally pisses me off.
Distortion Field is amazing when soloing, but it's sort of lackluster in teams. You can throw it down but everything it WOULD hold is dead within five seconds of engagement anyway. RNG might help hold a Boss, but eh. I like it, but I know it's a gimmicky power.
Chrono Shift? I wish it dropped the damn HoT and instead went a full-duration +Regen/Recovery buff. Otherwise I look at it as purely a +50% Recharge buff with a little +Endurance on it and an ignorable HoT. Saving it as an "Oh ****" Button is pointless because +50% Recharge is MASSIVE and would help KILL THINGS far more than the paltry HoT would help SAVE things.
All this aside, Time is a good set. Middle of the road, but it's not superior to Traps, Dark, or Thermal. I KNOW I will see it played, I KNOW I will see it played badly because people already suck at micromanaging MMs and Time promotes even WORST MM micromanaging.
I hate Time for that ;P
Quote:
Thanks for being dismissive. Swell of you.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
I'd question your experience, by merit of Ninjas being the biggest micro-heavy petset of the lot. If you're capable of juggling the Jounin's needing proper set up, the positioning of the Oni, and leashing the Genins, while also able to constantly use all of Time's powers fully? I salute your micro-management prowess.
And going by the fact you said you had very little time to test it... ahem. Moving on... |
I posted a quick impression, made no claims about being the be-all-end-all absolute final what not.
I've played enough MMs over the years to be pretty confident of my own assessments of a power set within the bounds of my playstyle (which, lately, is not end game stuff). I should have said that, I suppose, because you seem to have taken me as speaking for more than just my opinion.
If you want to attack my experience then... I'm just confused.
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
*Drool*
I'm going to LOVE my new Ninjas/Time Manipulation Mastermind.
It doesn't look like I can get the Ninjas (perhaps the Jounin) to the Defense cap, however with that huge -Tohit debuff from Time's Juncture coupled with its massive radius means that won't matter for non AV fights.
Some things I don't like:
- Temporal Mending's Recharge
- The +Recharge buffs which are partially (since they come with other side effects) wasted on Pets
But overall it looks nice!Edit: Silly me, I forgot to say Thank you very much Aett_Thorn!!
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)