Archetype Conceptual Holes

so I've been looking over the archetypes and considering powerset matches. Like trick arrow and archery, or fire blast and thermal radiation. thematic ones more than mechanical ones. I'm calling them 'conceptual holes.' I'd love to talk about these, if anyone has anything to add.

Granted, conceptualizing odd combos (mind/radiation!) can be fun. But it looks like some ATs got more thematic love than others.

It looks like, even now, Controllers have the most jagged puzzle pieces. Now, my first few characters were all controllers - I loved crowd control when I first found the game, and have not yet lost that love. But I remember from the early day looking at the controllers and going "how do I fit these puzzle pieces together?"

On the villain side, the jagged puzzle pieces are the Masterminds (7 vs the controller's 8)

I should note this is not a COMPLAINT. Simply an observation.

what do you all think? Am I being unfair?

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conceptual holes:

Blasters have two different primaries without an easily matched secondary. (radiation and sonic). I21's Proliferation will not change this.

Brutes have one primary without an easily matched secondary. (Kinetic Melee). I21's proliferation will not change this.

Controllers have 4 primaries (earth, electric, illusion, plant) and four secondaries (ff, radiation, sonic, and TA) without easy matches. Poison might change this, but Time Manipulation will too.

Corruptors have one secondary (Pain Domination) without an easily matched primary. I21's proliferation gives us Psychic Blast, which probably matches. However, with Poison, this number will crop up again.

Defenders have one primary without an easily matched secondary. (Kinetics) I21 will also give them Time Manipulation, so two unmatches.

Dominators are tight. Everything has a match.

Masterminds have three primaries (Demons, Mercenaries and Thugs) and four secondaries (Pain, Poison, storm Summoning, and Thermal Radiation) without easy matches. And with the I21 proliferation, that'll become three and five, because Sonic doesn't have a good match either. And with Time Manipulation, more lack of matches.

Like Brutes, Stalkers and Scrappers have one primary without an easily matched secondary: Kinetic Melee. I21's proliferation will hurt the conceptual matches available to the Stalker, with Ice Armor without an ice melee.

Tankers are similar, with one secondary without an easily matched primary: Kinetic Melee. I21's proliferation will not change this.


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Observations:

Buff sets don't easily match thematically with other sets. (Controllers and Masterminds are the biggest culprits here). Defenders and Corruptors have gotten thematic love, with blasts that fit their buffs.

Kinetics seems to be another unmatched "set."

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thoughts:

we need a kinetic blast set for at least Defenders.
we probably also want a kinetic armor set for the melee classes.


some sort of Sonic Manipulation and Radiation Manipulatio nwould be lovely for Blasters.

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for those curious what I considered "easy" matches, here's the entire list. I was trying to be generous:



BLASTER (2/0)

-Archery
-Assault Rifle
-Dual Pistols
*Devices

-Electrical Blast
*Electricity Manipulation

-Energy Blast
*Energy Manipulation

-Fire Blast
*Fire Manipulation

-Ice Blast
*Ice Manipulation

-Psychic Blast
*Mental Manipulation


conceptual holes:

-Radiation Blast
*none
-Sonic Attack
*none
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BRUTE (1/0)

-Dark Melee
*Dark Armor

-Electrical Melee
*Electrical Armor

-Energy Melee
*Energy Aura

-Fiery Melee
*Fire Armor

-Stone Melee
*Stone Armor

-Various weapons
*Shield
*Invulnerability
*Super Reflexes
*Willpower

conceptual holes:
-Kinetic Melee
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CONTROLLER (4/4)

-Fire Control
*Thermal

-Ice Control
*Cold Domination
*Storm Summoning

-Mind Control
*Empathy

-Gravity Control
*Kinetics


conceptual holes primary:
Earth Control
Electric Control
Illusion Control
Plant Control

conceptual holes secondary:
Force Field
Radiation Emission
Sonic Resonance
Trick Arrow

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CORRUPTOR (0/1)

Archery
*Trick Arrow

Assault Rifle
Dual Pistols
*Traps

Dark Blast
*Dark miasma

Electrical Blast
*Storm Summoning

Energy Blast
*Kinetics

Fire Blast
*Thermal

Ice Blast
*Cold Domination

Radiation Blast
*Radiation

Sonic Attack
*Sonic Resonance

conceptual holes: (psychic blast seems a good fit, and will be proliferating; but then, they're also getting poison)
*Pain Domination

---

Defender (1/0)

-Cold Domination
*Ice Blast
-Dark Miasma
*Dark Blast
-Empathy
*Psychic Blast
-Force Field
*Energy
-Radiation Emission
*Radiation Blast
-Sonic Resonance
*Sonic Attack
-Storm Summoning
*Electric Blast
-Traps
*Assault Rifle
*Dual Pistols
-Trick Arrow
*Archery


conceptual holes:
-Kinetics

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Dominator (0/0)

-Earth Control
*Earth Assault
-Electric Control
*Electric Assault
-Gravity Control
*Energy Assault
-Ice Control
*Icy Assault
-Mind Control
*Psionic Assault
-Plant Control
*Thorny Assault

conceptual holes: none

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MASTERMIND (3/4)


-Necromancy
*Dark Miasma
-Ninjas
*Trick Arrow
-Robotics
*Traps
*Force Field

conceptual holes:
-Demons
-Mercenaries
-Thugs

*pain domination
*poison
*storm summoning
*thermal radiation
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SCRAPPER (1/0)

-Dark Melee
*Dark Armor
-Electrical Melee
*Electric Armor
-Fiery Melee
*Fiery Aura

-Spines
*Regeneration

-Weapons & Martial Arts
*Invulnerability
*Shield Defense
*Super Reflexes
*Willpower

conceptual holes primary:
-Kinetic Melee

(energy armor fits, and will be proliferating)
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STALKER

-Weapons and Martial Arts
*Ninjitsu
*Super Reflexes
*Willpower

-Spines
*Regeneration

-Dark Melee
*Dark Armor
-Electric Melee
*Electric Armor
-Energy Melee
*Energy Aura

conceptual holes primary:
-Kinetic Melee
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TANKER (0/1)

-Dark Armor
*Dark Melee
-Electric Armor
*Electric Melee
-Fiery Aura
*Fiery Melee
-Ice Armor
*Ice Melee
-Stone Armor
*Stone Melee

-Invulnerability
-Shield Defense
-Willpower
*Weapons

conceptual holes:
-Kinetic Melee

Interesting conceptual analysis.
I approve on the surface.

I will quibble with the no kinetic armor side of things, however, as Energy Aura is intended to be such, and uses kinetic in the name of at least one power, off the top of my head. Perfect, or not, I think that particular 'hole' is indeed covered.

And thematically, I will say that KM/EA is pretty fun.

Just read pretty quickly, but why doesn't thermal match with Demons? Doesn't the Ember Demon cast a kind of thermal shield clone?

Technically, Controllers and Dominators have conceptual chasms with the lack of tech or natural specific sets.

Here's a chart of Powerset Types.

Further discussed here.

there is something wrong in your mind with corrs having kinetic matched to energy while you didnt that for defenders

i also think that kinetic melee fits good to energy armor from being bith energy based sets
mercs to traps is what i find good fitting too
PS: this is my meaning for conceptual things

First, I have to acknowledge the amount of work and thought that went into that post. That obviously took a lot of effort.

I'd say Kinetic Melee fits with Energy Aura. Energy Aura's sound/visual effects are mostly shared with the "Kinetics" buff/debuff set, and Energy Aura's secondary effects are more along the lines of Kinetics. Energy Melee is the outlier, despite sharing the word "Energy" in the name.

I would argue that Thermal goes with Demon Summoning. Much of Demons are fiery, both visually and in effect, so that should work.

For most of the others, I think the crux of it is "How would we make a complimentary powerset?"

-In my opinion, a Radiation secondary for Blasters should be possible utilizing a number of existing powers (from other sets or NPC moves), but a Sound Manipulation would probably be harder to do.

-To compliment Defenders' Kinetics, you need a Kinetic Blast set, one that would have a unique secondary effect from the other blast sets. The only thing left out there is "-DMG" which could, in theory, be conceptually worked out as "the life you take from your opponent boosts your own." However, a set like that has a LOT of potential to become overpowered, especially if it was proliferated to Blasters (for which, as a ranged set, there would be a demand). Then your left with another unmatched Blaster primary...

Those are just a couple examples, but I hope they illustrate my point. As someone who's characters have matching primary/secondaries almost exclusively, trust me when I say I would love to see those "conceptual holes" filled in (I am still hopeful that they may release an ice themed Ancillary power pool for Defenders one day...). As it is, I think some of them would be quite difficult to fill. But who knows? Perhaps with the launch of Freedom, some of those sets may become a reality.

concepts that work in my mind pretty easy...

Thugs/TA MM...if you're working on an all Natural theme...it doesn't get much more than this. You call in a bunch of hoodlums to do your dirty work for you, shoot people with pistols, and whip out a bow and shoot funky arrows that do funky stuff.

As mentioned...Mercs/Traps or /TA could also work, and Demons/Thermal. Demons/Pain works too, but when i first heard about Demon MMs...the VERY first thing that popped into my head was Demon/Thermal. No brainer for me.

Necro/Storm and Demon/Storm MM could be worked as well. Necro for the Banished Pantheon angle and Demon is just plain "you're a summoner". But that might be stretching it a smidge.

One of my first Kinetic toons was a Energy/Kin corr. Just seemed perfect to me. Energy Blast is the "kinetic" or "force" blast set of the City of... verse IMO. Why? KNOCKBACK! Most of the attacks in the set can put mobs on their rear end, often to the aggravation of the masses. If sending a guy flying 20 feet away doesn't SCREAM kinetic energy...i don't know what does.

I could probably come up with tons more if i sat down and ran over all the powersets for all the AT's...but i'm honesly too damn lazy for that. Lol!

Honestly...after looking at what you've got here...I'd say that your "issue" here isn't CONCEPTUAL holes as much as it is THEMATIC holes...i.e. matching, or close to, powersets such as Fire/Fire, Electric/Electric, Ice/Ice...etc. You can make a concept out of anything...but making it fit a theme, or motif if you will, may or may not be possible. Just my POV.

Still though...some interesting thoughts you've quoted to virtual ink. And I agree...much of the controller stuff has NO rhyme or reason! Sad really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe ::looks at RaikenX's signature:: Something funny.

Funny this should come up. I have a list of suggestions for filling in conceptual 'holes' I've been working on, with complete powersets to list. I keep tweaking the ideas, so it's taken a while but here's the abbreviation of it:


Primary................Secondary.................. .......Code: Green=Existing Yellow=New
__________________________________________________ ____
Blasters
__________________________________________________ ____
Sonic Theme
.................................................. ....................................
Sonic Attacks Sonic Manipulation
.................................................. ....................................
Light Theme
.................................................. ....................................
Solar Blast Energy Manipulation
__________________________________________________ ____
Controllers:
__________________________________________________ ____

Natural/Tech Theme
.................................................. ....................................
Gadget Control Traps
Gadget Control Battle Strategies

.................................................. ....................................
Dark Theme
.................................................. ....................................
Dark Control Dark Miasma

.................................................. ....................................
Leader/non-tech natural/Military Theme
.................................................. ....................................
Mind Control Battle Strategies

.................................................. ....................................
Pure Psychic
.................................................. ....................................
Mind Control Psychic Mediation
__________________________________________________ ____
Corruptors:
__________________________________________________ ____

Leader/non-tech natural/Military Theme
.................................................. ....................................
Assault Rifle Battle Strategies
Dual Pistols Battle Strategies
Archery Battle Strategies
.................................................. ....................................
Light Theme
.................................................. ....................................
Solar Blast Thermal Radiation
Solar Blast Radiation Emission

.................................................. ....................................
Pure Psychic
.................................................. ....................................
Psychic Blast Psychic Mediation

.................................................. ....................................
Poisoner/Mutant/Chemist
.................................................. ....................................
Poison Blast Poison
__________________________________________________ ____
Defenders:
__________________________________________________ ____

Leader/non-tech natural/Military Theme
.................................................. ....................................
Battle Strategies Assault Rifle
Battle Strategies Dual Pistols
Battle Strategies Archery

.................................................. ....................................
Pure Psychic
.................................................. ....................................
Psychic Mediation Psychic Blast

.................................................. ....................................
Light Theme
.................................................. ....................................
Thermal Radiation Solar Blast
Radiation Emission Solar Blast
__________________________________________________ ____
Dominators:
__________________________________________________ ____

Natural/Tech Theme
.................................................. ....................................
Gadget Control Armed Assault

.................................................. ....................................
Leader/Non-tech Natural/Military Theme
.................................................. ....................................
Mind Control Armed Assault

.................................................. ....................................
Dark Theme
.................................................. ....................................
Dark Control Dark Assault

__________________________________________________ ____
Masterminds:
__________________________________________________ ____

Mind Controlling Leader/Super Brain
.................................................. ....................................
Mercenaries Psychic Mediation
Thugs Psychic Mediation
Robotics Psychic Mediation
Robotics Battle Strategies
Monstrosities Psychic Mediation

.................................................. ....................................
Leader/non-tech natural/Military Theme
.................................................. ....................................
Mercenaries Battle Strategies
Thugs Battle Strategies
Monstrosities Battle Strategies

.................................................. ...................................
Poisoner/Mutant/Geneticist/Chemist
.................................................. ....................................
Monstrosities Poison

__________________________________________________ ____
Stalkers
__________________________________________________ ____

Assassin/Master of Stealth & Disappearance
.................................................. ....................................
Ninja Blade Cloaked Presence
Martial Arts Cloaked Presence
claws Cloaked Presence
Dual Blades Cloaked Presence

I'll make a few suggestions that no one else has pointed out.

For controllers, Plant Control goes well conceptually with Storm Summoning (you control weather to grow your crazy plants) or thermal radiation (you absorb and release sunlight to grow your crazy plants). This is a stretch, but I would pair Illusion Control with Sonic Resonance. Conceptually speaking, if your character is a trickster, you would use both light (ill/) and sound (/son) to confuse your enemies.

For blasters, since Radiation is a type of (really high) energy, it would go with Energy Manipulation.

For Masterminds, both Pain and Poison go hand in hand with Zombies, depending on what kind of zombies you're summoning (even though the powerset is called Necromancy, Pain goes well with "feral" zombies and Poison goes well with "virus" zombies... just ignore the summoning animations)

I disagree with the whole idea of requiring one-to-one pairings.

As already stated, we don't need a Kinetic Armor, for example, because Energy Aura can cover that concept, or even Invulnerability or Willpower with a cosmetic aura.

Radiation Manipulation for Blasters can be covered by Energy Manipulation. Light blasts are covered by white-tinted Radiation Blast.

Some "holes" make little sense, like Sonic Manipulation, or a strictly Plant-based buff/debuff set (compared to say Poison or Rad).

I'd rather the developers spend their time making power sets based on good ideas that will be fun to play, rather than trying to shoehorn an element and type together that doesn't fit.

I also really appreciate all the time and thought that went into your post, Lxndr, lining up all those powersets! However, I have to say I think the premise of you post is a bit off target, to me. The implication here being that matched sets equate to "dev love". I have to disagree.

In comics, the more interesting characters do not have "matched sets". Spiderman does not just have web powers. He also has all kinds of acrobatic and athletic powers, too. Is he "thematically unloved?" I think he's great thematically! It's just that his theme isn't "ranged web blast" and "melee web attacks." as might be the case if a) he were a CoX character, and b) we had web powersets available. In any case, "web" is a much smaller theme than "spider." "Spider" gives the character much more range and depth.

When a comic book character can only do 1 thing, they're a 1 trick wonder - in one comic, then gone. Unless they undergo some kind of metamorphosis and gain further powers, then come back to wreak vengeance, or something. "Mr. Hott-shott" might do everything with fire, for example, but if he can't take a punch or run more than half a block without triggering his asthma, he's a 1 shot guy. Maybe he drinks a potion and heals all wounds immediately, becoming fire/regen/fire? Or he becomes fantastically wealthy and hires /thugs? Or buys /traps, or /devices? Heck, even supers who pretty much just have their 1 powerset, have also learned Martial Arts/ or Streetfighting/ or rely on a lot of /Willpower! (I know we've all seen Green Arrow beat the snot out of a few guys, right?)

Nothing wrong with matched sets, of course! But using "CoX available matched sets" as ones theme is pretty limiting, even if the devs co
me up with a match for every last powerset. How about "Weird sun spot accident - gained fire/rad powers!" Or "got first bite from vampire, now have dark armor/superstrength, or dark melee/invuln. powers!" Even the obvious "back at the home office, a guy named Q has given me injections, gadgets and armor that looks like street clothes, am now a (name a powerset)/(name another powerset)!"

To be truthful, I (perhaps naively?) always assumed that the matchy-matchy powersets were designed more for newer players who didn't know what to take with what, until they got the hang of how to implement a character concept within the CoX archetypal framework - sort of like how the Costume Creator can give you a ready-made outfit?

Anyway, I hope I didn't offend anyone by saying any of this. This was in no way my intent - only to counter the idea that there is a "more correct" way to create a theme than any other way. One great thing about this game is that we're really only limited by the limits of our own creativity.

PS Hey, guys, you're all wrong - Demon Summoning goes with /Dark! Both conjured from the dark, nether hell realms (says player with a demon/dark MM). And, can I add, it also goes to show "thematically, anything can go with anything and be correct"?

Then there's the matter of the missing matches among Epic Power Pools, things like Blasters not having Psychic Mastery or Corruptors missing Fire Mastery.

I'd like that fixed too, please

Usually conceptual matching powersets are bad combos.

As I mentioned in the earlier post, this was not at all a complaint. Just a thought experiment, and perhaps a little of a criticism. Some posts I'm seeing feel like they have more invective than a thought experiment should bring. Maybe that's just the nature of a text-based medium.

I'm loving the rebuttals and suggestions I'm seeing in here. (The plant/storm is one I never would have considered.) And all the rebuttals about Demon Summoning are worthwhile - I hadn't really looked at that set much by the time I made this post.

Also, while the statements about Kinetics are valid, it still feels like the odd man out for me. That might be more gut feel than anything. (Also I'll admit way way back in the early days, they mentioned that a Kinetic Blast was in the pipeline. I might still be clinging to that in the back of my mind.)

I also wrote this while in chemotherapy, which does odd things to my brain. So, again: some apologies for fuzziness or lapses in judgement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Harmony I disagree with the whole idea of requiring one-to-one pairings.

Well, one-to-one pairings are nice in a conceptual sense. But I don't think they're necessary (or required) - that's why I noted that putting together the jagged puzzle pieces can be fun.

Quote:

Some "holes" make little sense, like Sonic Manipulation, or a strictly Plant-based buff/debuff set (compared to say Poison or Rad).

I'd call Poison a good match to Plant. In fact I think I did. *reads* Ah, no, I hedged my bets, saying that poison "might" change my analysis. Still, I'll come out now and say that Poison, specifically, is a good match to Plant. It's part of why I put off making a Plant Controller.

[quote[I'd rather the developers spend their time making power sets based on good ideas that will be fun to play, rather than trying to shoehorn an element and type together that doesn't fit.[/QUOTE]

Also a good point. I love good ideas (Time Manipulation is calling out to me). Still, I get the feeling that there's enough ideas out there for at least a Radiation Manipulation powerset (there's even a few radiation-based melee attacks in a monster group, the Shivans I think). Sonic, I dunno. *shrugs* If they come up with one, that'd be awesome. But I'm not even specifically pressing for that right now, I'm just saying that it's kind of a hole. A hole that a good enough creative mind can fill (I have a sonic/fire) but still a hole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by _eeek_ I also really appreciate all the time and thought that went into your post, Lxndr, lining up all those powersets! However, I have to say I think the premise of you post is a bit off target, to me. The implication here being that matched sets equate to "dev love". I have to disagree.

I'm not trying to state 'lack of dev love.' Just thematic misalignment, or concept holes as I termed them.

Quote:

In comics, the more interesting characters do not have "matched sets". Spiderman does not just have web powers. He also has all kinds of acrobatic and athletic powers, too. Is he "thematically unloved?" I think he's great thematically! It's just that his theme isn't "ranged web blast" and "melee web attacks." as might be the case if a) he were a CoX character, and b) we had web powersets available. In any case, "web" is a much smaller theme than "spider." "Spider" gives the character much more range and depth.

In comics, the more interesting characters are *characters* regardless of their powers. And usually, consistency is good. Spiderman's powers are consistent -they're all pretty close to his spiderness. "Matched sets" are usually desired, because people like things to make sense.

And yes, I love the non-matched sets (You should see my character list sometime), as long as the player comes up with something to match the concept (I see a lot of people going "hey, these are the best combination of powers, so I'm not going to consider concept" but that mostly bothers me on a creative side, not on a gameplay side).

Quote:

When a comic book character can only do 1 thing, they're a 1 trick wonder - in one comic, then gone.

Not sure about that. Look at the majority of the X-men. Cyclops (a very popular character) has exactly one trick - his eye beams. The rest of him is *character*. He doesn't generate popularity based on his powers, but based on his actual character. Other one trick wonders: Shadowcat. Wolverine is close to a one-trick wonder - regen and claws. Magneto too.

Hell, people balk when someone gets *too many tricks*. Powers aren't king in comics - character is.

Also the Fantasic Four have been going since 1961. They're ALL one-trick wonders, when it comes to powers. The invisible woman can invisible (and later force fields). Mister Fantastic can stretch! The Human Torch is the "Mister Hott-Shott" you mention - just lots of fire powers. Then there's The Thing, who can take hits and give them!

All one hit wonders, and all theme-matched. But that's not the point. People don't read about them because of their powers. They read about them because of their stories. (The powers drive the stories...)

Quote:

Heck, even supers who pretty much just have their 1 powerset, have also learned Martial Arts/ or Streetfighting/ or rely on a lot of /Willpower! (I know we've all seen Green Arrow beat the snot out of a few guys, right?)

To bring it back to CoX for a moment - that's why the Fighting pool. Green Arrow's probably got all four powers from that set, if he were specced out as a character in the City.

Hell that's why a few of my characters have the pool, game mechanics be damned. They're supposed to be scrappy fighters, dammit. So they are, even if my damage multiplier is down around 0.5.

Quote:

Anyway, I hope I didn't offend anyone by saying any of this. This was in no way my intent - only to counter the idea that there is a "more correct" way to create a theme than any other way. One great thing about this game is that we're really only limited by the limits of our own creativity.

I'm not offended at all. It was an interesting post.

As I mentioned earlier, I like fitting the puzzle pieces together and coming up with themes (probably why Controllers interested me from the start - they seemed so very grab-baggy.) But at the same time, it appears certain powersets match thematically "better" than others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zemblanity Then there's the matter of the missing matches among Epic Power Pools, things like Blasters not having Psychic Mastery or Corruptors missing Fire Mastery.

There is also this. But... really characters seem to *finish* at 40, and the 41-50 is still kind of an afterthought, where you can just round out your character or pick up whatever powers you feel like. So I don't really think of the EPPs so much. (at least, that's how it's always felt to me)

(I did like what they did with the Patron Pools - you can have setting-tied-powers! I just wish there were heroic Patrons. I wouldn't care if they were re-skinned versions of the villain Patrons, it'd just be more story grist for the narrative mill.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelxman81 Usually conceptual matching powersets are bad combos.

Not arguing this one. Which is kind of too bad.

ANYWAY... thanks for the lively discussion, everyone. Sorry about dropping the ball on Demons.

Have to agree with a previous poster, the energy blast and kinetics sets seem a perfect match, and the huge amounts of KB seal the deal. What kind of energy else would they be packing that much momentum other than kinetic?

I'd say a solar type blast is probably just radiation blast. Or an energy/fire combo type if they had to make a whole now blast for a solar theme, but I think rad works just fine.

Pure Sonic energy I can't really see as control set, but I could see a music themed control set. And that would pair nicely with Sonics. But I have zero idea how to do a sonic melee set conceptually.

For a controller, I can see plants pairing best with poison and storm. And plants for a Dom, thorns or earth both fit fine IMHO.

I think the kinetic melee as a theme again pairs quite nicely with energy aura. Will energy aura be available to tanks and scraps in the near future? I think I recall hearing that. I know it's getting an overhaul at least, but not sure if it's on the proliferation list.

I'll agree with several people here and say Demons has a wealth of good conceptual pairings. Thugs and Mercs seem to be the sets that require more of a stretch to call a thematic set.

Well, I like the conversation so far, so I just thought I'd chip in with my opinions.