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I was softcapped to S/L at level 27. I was using haymakers, maneuvers and CJ. Now I stay capped, I'm at 48, with some KC, I think Multi-strike [good in Icicles], I think mocking beratemnet, and CJ, not sure what else, but it's cheap and easy if you ditch the KC. I don't like running toggles and just don't need to. I've never felt weak with ice armor. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
Is Ice Armor bad? No. But is it "amazing" or other claims people make in this thread? No. Like all Defense sets (not named Shield Defense), you'll feel weak until nearing the end of your career. and even then...
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As for resistance, I'm not really that concerned as I have Hoarfrost and Hibernate. The only hole is fire, and I've not had a problem with that. Defense debuffs which usually don't hit from Cims but that stupid Quartz hits me every time, are the only issue I have.
I've got /Dark with my ice, which gives another heal in Syphon Life, which is an excellent power, a second endurance recovery, and your second AoE damage. Icicles is your best AoE with ice/dark and it does about 1/3 or my damage.
Ice/dark isn't for everyone. It's for teaming and being the indestructible meat shield. You'll never die. You just hibernate.
I am currently playing this toon, so my memories about the AT are fresh. I'm not just regurgitating what I've read here.
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Originally Posted by Infini
The 'no resist' in ice is only partly true. You can acquire 22-23% s/l resist with Tough. Don't forget the -dmg in CE, which is basically damage resist against whatever it is affecting.
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edited to add Ice/Dark info:
Heals = Hoarfrost, Siphon Life, Hibernate
Endurance recovery = Energy Absorption, Dark Consuption, Hibernate
AoE = Icicles and Soul Drain ONLY.
Also of note, I find that a good costume for under ice is a minimal one. Mine wears Metallic with banded boots an gloves, also Metallic, cyber cables and belt, and clockwork chestplate. Oh, and he has a blue bull head and tail.
If you put ice onto a normal, detailed costume, which we've all had happen to us when a defender does that to us, it kinda looks crap. Same with stone though, you have to think about how you'll look with your permanent, non costume accessory.
Ive redone my build after Infini's suggestions.
I normally do a build with as much Def as I can get and then look at how much Ive got and can I afford to reduce it in order to get better value elsewhere - sometimes however I suffer from Defence-peen (kinda like e-peen).
Ahem...
Anyway new build is.... at home (damn it).
But Def S/L is around 48.1%, E/NE is 46.x%.
Ohh by the way I am NOT perma Hasten - I forgot I had the Force Feeback +Rech proc in Kick and it was active. Hasten is about 22ish secs off Perma but Hoarfrost is 10 seconds over Perma when Hasten is active. So in-game Hoarfrost should be something like 10 seconds off perma (no maths was used in this guestimation 
).
Like Postagulous I used the metalic costume with blend (blue and red or blue and white) with the small Clockwork shoulders and an enclosed helmet with accessories and the Wisps aura.
In regards to costumes.
I've found that using a darker color for the 'panels' of the ice armor along with a lighter color for the edges can look pretty sharp and doesn't hinder the look of your costume too much.
I've had the most success with blue colors.
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
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I actually like the opacity of the default colors for everything but icicles, which I use a dark color as I really dont' like the way they look. And with all the shining aura stuff you can barely see them.
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Originally Posted by Infini
In regards to costumes.
I've found that using a darker color for the 'panels' of the ice armor along with a lighter color for the edges can look pretty sharp and doesn't hinder the look of your costume too much. I've had the most success with blue colors. |
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I don't like the overwhelming Ice graphics so I color them all dark to make them as subtle as possible. Then I use suppressclosefx to turn them off altogether (for my screen anyway). |
Originally Posted by Postagulous
I actually like the opacity of the default colors for everything but icicles, which I use a dark color as I really dont' like the way they look. And with all the shining aura stuff you can barely see them.
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There really should be low/no FX options for sets like Ice and Stone.
I've played my Ice/Axe thru 50 levels since Issue 3. I love it. Are there times when all the uber defenses fail me? Of course. But, all in all, I enjoy it.
@ Dr Gemini
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| �If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.� |
I would like to recommend ice/fire. Mine is becoming my preferred tank over all others. Also, I have never run into DDR issues. Where resistance issues from big attacks could be an issue, I took Aid-Self good for 820HP every 9 seconds. With the big defense, it may get interrupted 1/20 times....really not an issue.
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I think this is one of the reasons why I prefer defense sets to resist sets. It's always like gambling because you never know when the RNG is going to say it's time to eat dirt lol.|
Originally Posted by DrGemini
I've played my Ice/Axe thru 50 levels since Issue 3. I love it. Are there times when all the uber defenses fail me? Of course. But, all in all, I enjoy it.
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Originally Posted by ORACLE
I would like to recommend ice/fire. Mine is becoming my preferred tank over all others. Also, I have never run into DDR issues. Where resistance issues from big attacks could be an issue, I took Aid-Self good for 820HP every 9 seconds. With the big defense, it may get interrupted 1/20 times....really not an issue.
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SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
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What? Don't be put off from hibernating between groups if you need that. I'm ice/dark so I got heals all over the place.
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Originally Posted by Infini
Sometimes I wish I could have fit in Aid Self, but my build is pretty specific and tight as is. Definitely a plus for leveling. Once you get Incarnate and Rebirth, though, you don't really need anything else.
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I grabbed T4 Barrier as it is a great team buff- I find many others grab Rebirth or Clarion. As infrequently as I use Aid Self, Rebirth would be lost on me. Also, Aid self is a cheap way to get more recharge from IOs...not to mention Aid Other can come in handy with lore pets or other team members. On tanker tuesday ITF this week, I used it to help a few lower level tanks stay in the game.
Oh- And I do have hibernate as a last resort panic button but Very Very rarely need that.
I was thinking of maybe making a ice/kinetics. The combined minus damage would help make up for the damage that seeps through...but I dont know if it would help more than /ice. Ice patch is very amazing and allows aid self to get off 90% of the time.
I say play the secondary that sounds the most fun to you. If you are worried about Aid Self interruption, It goes of 95% of the time for me anyway...that is with capped s/l/n/e before EA. Also, remember that is with fire which has no mitigation (knockdown, -tohit)
I've had my ice/ice tank for a while now, well before the frozen aura now does damage change (which I was happy about when it happened.) Not to talk too much about /ice, but I realized frost was awesome long before a guide was written about it. Back in the day, I only took frozen fists, frost, build up, ice patch, freezing touch, and frozen aura and was an aoe beast.
Strengths of ice/:
*Easy to get lots of defense to all except cold, fire, and psi
*Easy to get very high cold resistance
*Has 2 taunt auras--only need to take taunt if you are worried about appearances and what other people think because you certainly don't need it
*Has lots of +recovery/endurance in energy absorption and hibernate
*Has a damage aura
*Has a heal
*Has an oh-sh*t power in hibernate
*Chilling embrace is also -dmg and -recharge
Weaknesses of ice/:
*No psi defense/resistance
*Piddly fire defense/resistance
*No real resist outside of cold
Strengths of /ice:
*Freezing touch and frost do *just* cold damage, meaning they will bypass (or pretty much bypass) the defense of pretty much all typed defense/resistance sets
*Frost and frozen aura do good aoe damage
*Ice patch lets you pretend to be a controller
Weaknesses of /ice:
*Weak single target damage
With chilling embrace and ice patch, an ice/ice can actually do just fine against psi enemies or other ones you would think it would be defenseless against. And there is always hibernate if you were about to die.
I think it is fine. I can remember (before the frozen aura changes and the target cap max so that you could gather a whole bunch) gathering tons of enemies in hazard zones and just leaving ice patch on auto. Then I would go afk for a while. The combination of the various toggles and ice patch kept me alive and icicles killed them. Yeah, the fact that I had to go afk meant the killing was slow, but the fact that you could gather a gazillion enemies and not die says something...
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
Ali, while I agree we ice tanks can hold aggro like a bucket, I am a taunt taker because sometimes the defender [or other squish] gets some aggro and backs way up, but is still getting pummeled. I'll pull those off him.
Now, I will hop over sometimes, and that works. But if I have to jump over my other squishies to do it, that means my enemy fanclub will walk though them to get to me if I spend too much time.
It's a tool in the toolbox. I use it. Others don't.
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I prefer the tauntless style, and completely agree that Ice/ doesn't need Taunt - while leveling. However, it also requires a more active playstyle to be good at it, which some players may not be into. |
Originally Posted by Postagulous
Ali, while I agree we ice tanks can hold aggro like a bucket, I am a taunt taker because sometimes the defender [or other squish] gets some aggro and backs way up, but is still getting pummeled. I'll pull those off him.
Now, I will hop over sometimes, and that works. But if I have to jump over my other squishies to do it, that means my enemy fanclub will walk though them to get to me if I spend too much time. It's a tool in the toolbox. I use it. Others don't. |
High level content does warrant its use, as well as Shield Defense, which seems capable of stealing aggro from you. There have been other threads on the issue. Basically Ice/ can 'get by' without Taunt, but it certainly has its uses.
That's why I respec'd Taunt into my ice/ice/soul build in the level 49 slot after playing Tauntless for years.
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
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*My comments on Taunt can be found in an above post*|
Originally Posted by _Ail_
I've had my ice/ice tank for a while now, well before the frozen aura now does damage change (which I was happy about when it happened.) Not to talk too much about /ice, but I realized frost was awesome long before a guide was written about it. Back in the day, I only took frozen fists, frost, build up, ice patch, freezing touch, and frozen aura and was an aoe beast.
Strengths of ice/: *Easy to get lots of defense to all except cold, fire, and psi *Easy to get very high cold resistance *Has 2 taunt auras--only need to take taunt if you are worried about appearances and what other people think because you certainly don't need it *Has lots of +recovery/endurance in energy absorption and hibernate *Has a damage aura *Has a heal *Has an oh-sh*t power in hibernate *Chilling embrace is also -dmg and -recharge Weaknesses of ice/: *No psi defense/resistance *Piddly fire defense/resistance *No real resist outside of cold Strengths of /ice: *Freezing touch and frost do *just* cold damage, meaning they will bypass (or pretty much bypass) the defense of pretty much all typed defense/resistance sets *Frost and frozen aura do good aoe damage *Ice patch lets you pretend to be a controller Weaknesses of /ice: *Weak single target damage With chilling embrace and ice patch, an ice/ice can actually do just fine against psi enemies or other ones you would think it would be defenseless against. And there is always hibernate if you were about to die. I think it is fine. I can remember (before the frozen aura changes and the target cap max so that you could gather a whole bunch) gathering tons of enemies in hazard zones and just leaving ice patch on auto. Then I would go afk for a while. The combination of the various toggles and ice patch kept me alive and icicles killed them. Yeah, the fact that I had to go afk meant the killing was slow, but the fact that you could gather a gazillion enemies and not die says something... |
You comments on Ice's resistance is a bit misinformed. You forget about the -dmg in CE. Lowering the damage of your attackers is similar to having personal resistance for yourself. This applies to all forms of damage, too (not sure on untyped damage like Hamidon, though).
Stacking other sources of -dmg with this is highly beneficial for plugging up those holes, like Psi. Kinetic Melee can hand out more -dmg than other sets, but any combo can get at least 35% total in -dmg by taking Darkest Night. Choosing the right Interface slot will add more, as well as Void Radial Judgement. Basically you can get in excess of 85-90% -dmg for a period of time. This isn't as resisted by AVs as some debuffs are, too.
Other notes (for Ice Melee) - Frozen Aura also does pure Cold damage, like FT and Frost.
Ice Patch does not let you pretend to be a controller. Ice Patch allows you to tank multiple areas, simultaneously. Got some adds behind you? Hop back, drop a patch on them and go back to the main spawn. That kinda thing. That said, in high end builds, IP isn't even necessary. I rarely use mine unless I hit it by accident. I can run through most of my attack chain in the time it takes to animate, so I choose to kill things. /Ice is a great minion/lt mower.
Taking a blast from the Epic pools helps with the lack of ST damage. Another reason to go Soul...
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
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A tank without taunt is like a emp without heal|
Originally Posted by Infini
I prefer the tauntless style, and completely agree that Ice/ doesn't need Taunt - while leveling. However, it also requires a more active playstyle to be good at it, which some players may not be into.
High level content does warrant its use, as well as Shield Defense, which seems capable of stealing aggro from you. There have been other threads on the issue. Basically Ice/ can 'get by' without Taunt, but it certainly has its uses. That's why I respec'd Taunt into my ice/ice/soul build in the level 49 slot after playing Tauntless for years. |
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Originally Posted by Infini
You comments on Ice's resistance is a bit misinformed. You forget about the -dmg in CE. Lowering the damage of your attackers is similar to having personal resistance for yourself. This applies to all forms of damage, too (not sure on untyped damage like Hamidon, though).
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Eh, taunt is only as useful as the time you have to use it.
Chilling Embrace, Icicles, and Gauntlet allows you to hold aggro on upwards of 5 mobs without having to hit taunt once.
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Pretty sure an Emp can get by without the heals. The rest of the buffs in that set are what makes it so good, not the actual heals. Of course there are situations that the Heals would be good for. |
Originally Posted by LSK
A tank without taunt is like a emp without heal
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If you're trying to say something like "no taunt = bad tank" I have to strongly disagree. My tank is probably about 4.5 years old. I leveled him without taunt and tanked every bit of content for 3 years without taunt. I only recently added (like beginning of the year) taunt to the build to make things like tanking buffed LR a bit easier.
The addition of Taunt is great for aggro management. However, if you're diligent and good at staying active, Ice Armor can get by without it. It's a playstyle choice, is what I'm getting at. Either way can be successful with a majority of content. Of course there will be situations that Taunt will be more beneficial or make tanking easier.
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)
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Just a quick, and hopefully inoffensive, correction. -DMG isn't like having personal resistance for yourself, it's like giving everyone in the area resistance! In other words, it's even better than what you're stating. |
Originally Posted by Infini
You comments on Ice's resistance is a bit misinformed. You forget about the -dmg in CE. Lowering the damage of your attackers is similar to having personal resistance for yourself. This applies to all forms of damage, too (not sure on untyped damage like Hamidon, though).
Stacking other sources of -dmg with this is highly beneficial for plugging up those holes, like Psi. Kinetic Melee can hand out more -dmg than other sets, but any combo can get at least 35% total in -dmg by taking Darkest Night. Choosing the right Interface slot will add more, as well as Void Radial Judgement. Basically you can get in excess of 85-90% -dmg for a period of time. This isn't as resisted by AVs as some debuffs are, too. |
I know you know that, we've participated in enough Ice tanker threads, and you got me started on the -DMG path. But I think it's worth clarifying for anyone reading that might not have realized just how effective -DMG is.
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Didn't I point out that CE had -dmg in the plusses that you just quoted? And didn't I say: "With chilling embrace and ice patch, an ice/ice can actually do just fine against psi enemies or other ones you would think it would be defenseless against."|
Originally Posted by Infini
*
You comments on Ice's resistance is a bit misinformed. You forget about the -dmg in CE. Lowering the damage of your attackers is similar to having personal resistance for yourself. This applies to all forms of damage, too (not sure on untyped damage like Hamidon, though). |
I am confused about your comments because I certainly did realize all of that and said as much...
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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No hard feelings. It is a potential advantage (extra aggro generation) even if you don't want to drop taunt. I think it is all good regardless.
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Originally Posted by Postagulous
Ali, while I agree we ice tanks can hold aggro like a bucket, I am a taunt taker because sometimes the defender [or other squish] gets some aggro and backs way up, but is still getting pummeled. I'll pull those off him.
Now, I will hop over sometimes, and that works. But if I have to jump over my other squishies to do it, that means my enemy fanclub will walk though them to get to me if I spend too much time. It's a tool in the toolbox. I use it. Others don't. |
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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I have been playing a tank now for a little over 6 years and I have also seen people who say that they do not need taunt and next thing you know they lose aggro and the squishy that got it dies. So yes I am saying no taunt=bad tank. There is many times in the game where your going to need taunt. Keeping hold of AVs, getting the baddies off of squishy to keep them alive, doing HAMI. An emp might be able to get by on the other buffs but it is better with heals to keep team alive, just like a Tank needs to hold aggro off of the rest of the team.
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Originally Posted by Infini
Pretty sure an Emp can get by without the heals. The rest of the buffs in that set are what makes it so good, not the actual heals. Of course there are situations that the Heals would be good for.
If you're trying to say something like "no taunt = bad tank" I have to strongly disagree. My tank is probably about 4.5 years old. I leveled him without taunt and tanked every bit of content for 3 years without taunt. I only recently added (like beginning of the year) taunt to the build to make things like tanking buffed LR a bit easier. The addition of Taunt is great for aggro management. However, if you're diligent and good at staying active, Ice Armor can get by without it. It's a playstyle choice, is what I'm getting at. Either way can be successful with a majority of content. Of course there will be situations that Taunt will be more beneficial or make tanking easier. |
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I have been playing a tank now for a little over 6 years and I have also seen people who say that they do not need taunt and next thing you know they lose aggro and the squishy that got it dies. So yes I am saying no taunt=bad tank. There is many times in the game where your going to need taunt. Keeping hold of AVs, getting the baddies off of squishy to keep them alive, doing HAMI. An emp might be able to get by on the other buffs but it is better with heals to keep team alive, just like a Tank needs to hold aggro off of the rest of the team. And yes I have been on a squishy with a tank that was just like you, they have been playing a Ice tank for over 5 years and they lost aggro from an AV because they had no taunt. I died. So I am a firm believer that a Tank should have Taunt.
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Originally Posted by Infini
Pretty sure an Emp can get by without the heals. The rest of the buffs in that set are what makes it so good, not the actual heals. Of course there are situations that the Heals would be good for.
If you're trying to say something like "no taunt = bad tank" I have to strongly disagree. My tank is probably about 4.5 years old. I leveled him without taunt and tanked every bit of content for 3 years without taunt. I only recently added (like beginning of the year) taunt to the build to make things like tanking buffed LR a bit easier. The addition of Taunt is great for aggro management. However, if you're diligent and good at staying active, Ice Armor can get by without it. It's a playstyle choice, is what I'm getting at. Either way can be successful with a majority of content. Of course there will be situations that Taunt will be more beneficial or make tanking easier. |
I read somewhere else in the forums that there are 3 "schools" of tanking: defense, resistance, and health. Pursuing more than just one of these three can lead to more versatility as a tank. Resistance is pretty much out the door for an ice tank with the exception of cold damage. So that leaves health and regeneration...
For an Icer (like most primarily defense based builds), you should get your defense up, then go for the trio of +hp/regen/recharge. Going the extra mile to increase the sturdiness of Ice is layering -dmg on top of these things.
SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)