Quote:
Exactly. |
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Taunt the power just allows you to apply the threat multiplier from range, and affect much more targets then Gauntlet will normally allow to you do.
|
Quote:
| Now ice/ has 2 auras, that pulse every few seconds, that apply this same 1000x multiplier to the ice tankers attacks, basically making 'taunt' the power redundant, unless you both need, and have a way to maintain range threat, which on a tanker is limited to only epic power pools, or select powers with limited recharge (taunt -> hurl will allow you to build threat from range, but that blaster who nuked in melee range will pull threat right off you pretty quick, even though you used taunt) |
And if that blaster comes in and nukes and everyone's not dead, they suck and I will let them die, which they won't as enemies love an ice tank. I hate to let a blapper live, but it happens.
Quote:
The thing is, there is only 1 thing i can think off where 'ranged taunt' would actually be useful, that is on a Hami raid, for the hami tank. Any other time a tanker(or brute) would need to hold aggro he can do so in melee range, which allows him to abuse Gauntlet, and his taunt auras.|
Originally Posted by Postagulous
Adding range doesn't make it redundant. The "unless" and "or" are appreciated.
And if that blaster comes in and nukes and everyone's not dead, they suck and I will let them die, which they won't as enemies love an ice tank. I hate to let a blapper live, but it happens. |
while i will admit 'Taunt' has its uses, they are very few and far between, and saying 'no taunt = bad tank' is a very close minded argument especially with the equations and math shows that 'threat' can be built without using taunt.
Quote:
You're making a critical misinterpretation of taunt's mechanics. The threat multiplication is not a binary on/off x1000, it's a x1000 per second of the longest remaining taunt. Yes, Gauntlet and aggro auras pulse a 13.5s (on average, reduced by the purple patch, etc), or a 13,500x multiplier. On the flip side, Taunt places a 41,000x multiplier, or if it's well slotted, ~81,000x. That is a huge difference in magnitude. And when you're dealing with other ATs with taunt auras (specifically Brutes and Invuln/Shield Scrappers), you'll want/need that extra taunt duration.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
As per http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Taunt_%28Status_Effect%29 'taunt' the power only really adds a 1000x multiplier to your attacks for the duration of the taunt power. But, http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Threat hows that any AT can build up threat on mobs, without using taunt specifically, especially when ALL of a tankers attacks apply the 'taunt' affect, giving ALL of their attacks the 1000x multiplier to threat. Taunt the power just allows you to apply the threat multiplier from range, and affect much more targets then Gauntlet will normally allow to you do.
|
Remember, the taunt duration on auras isn't different on Scrappers or Brutes, but they deal more damage, leading to higher threat generation. (If the Brute has Taunt, which is also the same duration as it is for Tankers, then Game Over, Brute wins.)
Ice has one thing that make its auras more potent than most: a plethora of debuffs. Debuffs act as threat multipliers, damage and resistance one in particular, because they effect 8 stats at once (each damage type), which CE has on top of recharge debuffs and movement slows. Still, I would never count on that and give up my strongest threat generating tool. I've played Tauntless tanks (Ice, in fact) before, but after losing aggro and having no recourse to get it back, I picked it up.
[edit: On an unrelated note, it has a range debuff that helps cluster mobs.]
Quote:
compared to....?|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
while i will admit 'Taunt' has its uses, they are very few and far between.
|
Yeah thread necromancy but I did wonder.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I'm coming back to play from stopping in 2008 and have a ice/ss tanker. I'm doing fine with it so far, but am a little annoyed that I ended up taking Glacial Armor.. which I NEVER use.
I run on mac so I can't use the mids planner, but I ran it through the web based one and just did basic Enh's since I don't know any of the sets and that sort of thing. I'll figure those out later. I figure the slotting's more important anyway.
So please let me know what you think and/or point me to where I can get some more knowledge -
+----------------------------------------------------------------
+ Built with SuckerPunch's Online Planner v5.0
+ http://planner.cohtitan.com/planner
+----------------------------------------------------------------
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Ice Armor
Secondary: Super Strength
+----------------------------------------------------------------
01: Frozen Armor => Buff_Defense(1), EnduranceDiscount(3), EnduranceDiscount(3), EnduranceDiscount(5), Buff_Defense(5), Buff_Defense(7)
01: Jab => Accuracy(1), Damage(7), EnduranceDiscount(23)
02: Chilling Embrace => EnduranceDiscount(2), EnduranceDiscount(11), EnduranceDiscount(13), Taunt(15)
04: Haymaker => Recharge(4), EnduranceDiscount(9), Empty(31)
06: Combat Jumping => EnduranceDiscount(6), Buff_Defense(15)
08: Wet Ice => EnduranceDiscount(8), EnduranceDiscount(9), EnduranceDiscount(11)
10: Taunt => Accuracy(10), Taunt(40)
12: Maneuvers => EnduranceDiscount(12), Buff_Defense(17), EnduranceDiscount(31), EnduranceDiscount(34), Buff_Defense(36), Buff_Defense(37)
14: Super Jump => Jump(14), Jump(50), Jump(50)
16: Hoarfrost => EnduranceDiscount(16), EnduranceDiscount(17), EnduranceDiscount(19), Heal(19)
18: Boxing => Damage(18), Accuracy(37), Damage(37), EnduranceDiscount(48), Damage(50)
20: Knockout Blow => EnduranceDiscount(20), Accuracy(21), Empty(39), Empty(48), Empty(48)
22: Tough => EnduranceDiscount(22), EnduranceDiscount(25)
24: Tactics => EnduranceDiscount(24), EnduranceDiscount(25)
26: Energy Absorption => EnduranceDiscount(26), EnduranceDiscount(27), EnduranceDiscount(27), Buff_Defense(29), Buff_Defense(29), Recharge(31)
28: Hand Clap => Accuracy(28), EnduranceDiscount(31), Recharge(31), Empty(40)
30: Recall Friend => EnduranceDiscount(30)
32: Hibernate => EnduranceDiscount(32), EnduranceDiscount(33), Recharge(33), EnduranceDiscount(33), Recharge(34), Recharge(34)
35: Hurl => Damage(35), EnduranceDiscount(36), Accuracy(36), Damage(40), Accuracy(43), EnduranceDiscount(45)
38: Foot Stomp => Damage(38), EnduranceDiscount(39), Accuracy(39), Damage(46), Accuracy(46), EnduranceDiscount(46)
41: Weave => EnduranceDiscount(41), EnduranceDiscount(42), EnduranceDiscount(42), Buff_Defense(42), Buff_Defense(43), Buff_Defense(43)
44: Assault => EnduranceDiscount(44), EnduranceDiscount(45), EnduranceDiscount(45)
47: Conserve Power => EnduranceDiscount(47), EnduranceDiscount(50)
49: Energy Torrent => Damage(49)
+----------------------------------------------------------------
+ Inherent Powers
+----------------------------------------------------------------
01: Brawl => Empty(1)
01: Sprint => Empty(1)
02: Rest => Empty(2)
[EDIT] reading frankenslotting guide and "IO's for Newbs..."
Quote:
Hamidon is about the only thing i can think of that would require ranged taunt of that high of a magnitude. Anything else, especially on an ice tanker you can run into melee and hold aggro just fine.
|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
compared to....?
Yeah thread necromancy but I did wonder. |
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.942
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Ice Melee
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Armor
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (3) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (3) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (5) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Recharge
- (5) Luck of the Gambler - Endurance/Recharge
- (7) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
- (7) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
- (9) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
- (9) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Doctored Wounds - Heal
- (11) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance
- (11) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Recharge
- (13) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
- (13) Doctored Wounds - Recharge
- (A) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage
- (15) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance
- (17) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge
- (17) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (19) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (19) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (21) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Mocking Beratement - Taunt
- (21) Mocking Beratement - Taunt/Recharge
- (23) Mocking Beratement - Taunt/Recharge/Range
- (23) Mocking Beratement - Accuracy/Recharge
- (25) Mocking Beratement - Taunt/Range
- (25) Mocking Beratement - Recharge
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (27) Recharge Reduction IO
- (27) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Celerity - RunSpeed
- (15) Celerity - +Stealth
- (29) Celerity - Endurance
- (A) Damage Increase IO
- (A) Aegis - Resistance
- (29) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
- (31) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge
- (31) Aegis - Endurance/Recharge
- (31) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (33) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (33) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (33) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (34) Red Fortune - Defense
- (34) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
- (34) Red Fortune - Endurance
- (36) Red Fortune - Defense/Recharge
- (36) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (36) Red Fortune - Defense
- (37) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance
- (37) Red Fortune - Defense/Recharge
- (37) Red Fortune - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
- (39) Red Fortune - Endurance
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (50) Rectified Reticle - Increased Perception
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (42) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
- (43) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance
- (43) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
- (43) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (45) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
- (A) Eradication - Damage
- (45) Eradication - Accuracy/Recharge
- (45) Eradication - Damage/Recharge
- (46) Eradication - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (46) HamiO:Nucleolus Exposure
- (A) Unbreakable Constraint - Endurance/Hold
- (48) Unbreakable Constraint - Chance for Smashing Damage
- (48) Unbreakable Constraint - Hold/Recharge
- (48) Unbreakable Constraint - Accuracy/Hold/Recharge
- (50) Unbreakable Constraint - Accuracy/Recharge
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (50) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Endurance Modification IO
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
------------
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
Level 1: Sprint
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
Level 2: Swift
- (A) Run Speed IO
- (A) Numina's Convalescence - Heal
- (39) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
- (39) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance
- (46) Miracle - +Recovery
- (A) Jumping IO
- (A) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod
- (40) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Recharge
- (40) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
- (40) Efficacy Adaptor - Accuracy/Recharge
- (42) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Accuracy
- (42) Efficacy Adaptor - EndMod/Endurance
Set Bonus Totals:
- 9.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 9.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 9.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 9.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 9.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 9.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 9.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 9.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 13% Defense(Smashing)
- 13% Defense(Lethal)
- 10.8% Defense(Fire)
- 10.8% Defense(Cold)
- 8% Defense(Energy)
- 8% Defense(Negative)
- 3% Defense(Psionic)
- 8% Defense(Melee)
- 8.31% Defense(Ranged)
- 9.25% Defense(AoE)
- 3.6% Max End
- 4% Enhancement(Heal)
- 33% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 75% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 253 HP (13.5%) HitPoints
- MezResist(Held) 8.8%
- MezResist(Immobilize) 15.4%
- MezResist(Terrorized) 2.2%
- 20% Perception
- 5.5% (0.09 End/sec) Recovery
- 42% (3.28 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 6.3% Resistance(Fire)
- 6.3% Resistance(Cold)
- 3.13% Resistance(Psionic)
- 5% RunSpeed
- 2.5% XPDebtProtection
Yeah, this is my ice tank build. its too easy to play.
Kill the enemy. Take their souls. Drink their blood.
Quote:
I have played my Ice tank since Issue 3 and can tell you that even with the aggro an Ice tank can hold just off of your auras, Taunt is something you should be taking just for the simple fact that it is a powerful tool that I see people underestimate. |
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Hamidon is about the only thing i can think of that would require ranged taunt of that high of a magnitude. Anything else, especially on an ice tanker you can run into melee and hold aggro just fine.
|
In fact, IMHO, a tank without taunt might as well have rolled a scrapper or a brute. A tanker is designed to be the guy that attempts to take as much of the heat off the team as possible. Having Taunt allows the Ice tank to essentially "bait" mobs into melee where your auras can take over.
I have seen the usefulness of Taunt while running the iTrials. I can quite easily pull the AVs on the BAF around me where I have no trouble maintaining aggro from them (which often results in me being held quickly and multiple times during the fight). If I have some good controllers/dominators in the group who can immobilize the AVs, Taunt allows me to make the AVs waste their holds on me while I also hold the aggro of the reinforcements.
@ Dr Gemini
Quote:
| �If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.� |
Now ice/ has 2 auras, that pulse every few seconds, that apply this same 1000x multiplier to the ice tankers attacks, basically making 'taunt' the power redundant, unless you both need, and have a way to maintain range threat, which on a tanker is limited to only epic power pools, or select powers with limited recharge (taunt -> hurl will allow you to build threat from range, but that blaster who nuked in melee range will pull threat right off you pretty quick, even though you used taunt)