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I thought that was your whole point was about increasing currency BEYOND threads. Which is what I was responding to.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I cut your post to avoid inflating the thread but I did read it and I have to say I really do not understand your point.
I do not consider Keyes to be a new tier of trial, it is an addition to the existing tiers. It was always possible to get up to Lore and Destiny running just BAF/Lambda so all Keyes does is provide a bit more variety and potentially slightly faster advancement if you run all three together. The fact that it gives both types of iXP doesn't really matter, iXP is a minor part of getting the abilities slotted and apart from that all three trials offer the same rewards. Yes, new Lore abilities were released at the same time as Keyes but those were an expansion of an existing slot rather than a new slot. The original Lore abilities are still perfectly valid and the new ones are about variety not power (other than the fact that they aren't perfectly balanced). I think history disagrees with you there. When the J/I/L/D slots were released from what I could see the majority of people flocked to the trials to get the new abilities. They did not, instead, opt to spend their time running level 50 TFs ad nauseum and convert shards to threads despite that being available as an upgrade path. I think implementing a similarly punitive upgrade path on the new slots would be sufficient friction to encourage running the next round of trials (the current one is about 5:1). Yes, some people will have sufficient stockpiled stuff to get a head start on the new slots but once that is gone the new trials will likely be much more lucrative since you would need to run 5 BAFs/Lambdas to get the rewards from one tier 2 trial. Now this does not necessarily solve the issue of people running the easier/shorter trials within the existing set and I think it would be nice to see the rewards for Keyes upped a little bit to encourage running it more. |
Actually I was focusing on threads being significantly easier to gain as we get more trials. Keyes isn't more punitive, in fact it makes it easier to get threads., since you can run back to back BAF/LAM/Keyes for a crap load of threads. My point was that by the time we get the next slots we may very well have 5 trials, which will make it very easy to get stuff (threads) that converts into the new stuff, UNLESS they don't also include a conversion mechanism.
Currently folks run BAf/LAM instead of Keyes to get their threads. A bump in rewards for Keyes would do the opposite of what a new currency for later slots is trying to accomplish simply because you then make it easier to get threads via all three trials, or all four or five. (The devs have already stated we will probably NOT see new slots for a while, so there WILL be more ways to get threads and stockpile them and thus the problem that ONLY introducing a new currency won't be prevented by ONLY introing a new currency.)
My point was that JUST a new currency won't do what the whole point of what introducing threads was in the first place if you ONLY intro a new currency. Threads are SIGNIFICANTLY faster to get then shards, so comparing the tf-based alpha to threads isn't a realistic comparison.
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Ah, I see what you're getting at now, sorry for the confusion. Still, I think that can be solved by simply choosing a suitable upgrade rate. The Shards -> Threads upgrade was done at 1:1 but threads have about 1/5th the "value" of shards to the effective upgrade rate was 5:1. It should be possible to set a similar (or worse) upgrade rate for Threads -> Incarnate Whatevers to allow an upgrade path that doesn't completely invalidate the currency switch. As you note it is easier to get threads than shards so it might be necessary to go higher than 5:1.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
My point was that JUST a new currency won't do what the whole point of what introducing threads was in the first place if you ONLY intro a new currency. Threads are SIGNIFICANTLY faster to get then shards, so comparing the tf-based alpha to threads isn't a realistic comparison.
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I'd still prefer at to depreciate Threads entirely upon release of a new currency and make a combined Shard/Thread currency just to help newer players/characters gear up.
I'll also add as a general note going from Shard -> Threads they made the exchange 1:1 and devalued the new currency, for the next step I'd prefer to keep the same currency value (20 Whatevers for a common etc.) and set the conversion at 5:1 (or higher) since if we keep this up the numbers start getting silly (you'd need to earn Incarnate Whatevers at 5x the rate of Threads which are already earned at 5x the rate of shards).
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That might work. Also keep in mind that we'll have (knock on wood) new solo and small teams content by the time new slots arrive. So there will be less need to keep the necessary conversion rate than when they went from shards to threads. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Ah, I see what you're getting at now, sorry for the confusion. Still, I think that can be solved by simply choosing a suitable upgrade rate. The Shards -> Threads upgrade was done at 1:1 but threads have about 1/5th the "value" of shards to the effective upgrade rate was 5:1. It should be possible to set a similar (or worse) upgrade rate for Threads -> Incarnate Whatevers to allow an upgrade path that doesn't completely invalidate the currency switch. As you note it is easier to get threads than shards so it might be necessary to go higher than 5:1.
I'd still prefer at to depreciate Threads entirely upon release of a new currency and make a combined Shard/Thread currency just to help newer players/characters gear up. I'll also add as a general note going from Shard -> Threads they made the exchange 1:1 and devalued the new currency, for the next step I'd prefer to keep the same currency value (20 Whatevers for a common etc.) and set the conversion at 5:1 (or higher) since if we keep this up the numbers start getting silly (you'd need to earn Incarnate Whatevers at 5x the rate of Threads which are already earned at 5x the rate of shards). |
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Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
The only 'currency' I take issue with is the 2 different kinds of Incarnate xp.
It's unnecessary. Especially now since the Keyes trial, and apparently the new Underground trial both give credit for both types of xp.
I get the idea behind it was to 'force' people to sample both the initial trials so one was not largely ignored in favor of the other, but at this point there is no need for that anymore. Both trials have their proponents and I firmly believe both will still be run more or less equally if they gave out the same type of incarnate xp. And there are still the Empyrian as an incentive to variation.
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If we get rid of Vanguard Merits, then how is it that the Reward Merits I got from doing Silver Mantis' Strike Force means that the Vanguard will now give me one of their HVASs?
Currencies tie specific rewards to specific tasks. If the link makes sense, the currency should stay despite the fact it 'confuses' people.
And 'confuse'? Really? Figuring out an IO build for a character is several orders more confusing that keeping track of currencies. Is it really confusing? Do you walk away from your computer saying, "I just tried to buy an HVAS with Villain Alignment Merits and I couldn't! I just don't understand how this works!!"
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Too many
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Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
Not a very convincing argument. What's wrong with currencies?
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H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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The game banks refuse to deal with "Fiddling small change" and refuse to handle conversions.
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Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
Not a very convincing argument. What's wrong with currencies?
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Sooner or later we will get iTrial merits since people will have a tendancy to just "farm" the fastest trial(s) and avoid the longest most annoying ones.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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That's because the game banks are a figment of a deranged imagination.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
The game banks refuse to deal with "Fiddling small change" and refuse to handle conversions.
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I agree (and have commented in the past) about the number of currencies in the game. I feel the same about salvage and components - they do little but add unnecessary complexity to the game. For instance, I really don't like how they've been handling the whole Incarnate system, in terms of currency and components.
I feel that the Incarnate system should just be distilled into XP and Threads. Shards are mostly useless after Alpha, especially since all Alpha abilities can be bought with JILD (Judgement/Interface/Lore/Destiny) Components. In fact, Incarnate Components don't even make sense to me from either a flavor standpoint or a mechanics standpoint. Also, why did we need to have 3 new currencies introduced with JILD? E Merits could have just been distilled down into large number of A Merits. For that matter, why do we even need A Merits? It all converts down to x Threads anyway.
However fixing these problems is not easy, now that they're part of the game. As much as I've love to see things streamlines and simplified, I doubt it'll ever happen.
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If so, this is an even stupider reason for a new currency. If new trials are worth running people will run them without being forced to. If they're not, forcing people into doing so just to get new abilities isn't going to win the devs any popularity.
| But yes, I'm am sure the next round of slots will have a new currency. Not because the devs are trying to limit the speed we get it at but because they will want to stop us from progressing through the next slots by repeatedly running BAF/Lambda/Keyes (which I think we can run in our sleep by now). |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
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You're confusing "worth running in terms of fun" with "worth running in terms of rewards/time". I am confident that whatever trials will be released with the new slots will be fun to run. However, that doesn't really solve the rewards/time issue. The newer trials will almost certainly have worse rewards/time than BAF/Lambda due to the higher difficulty. |
Originally Posted by Venture
If so, this is an even stupider reason for a new currency. If new trials are worth running people will run them without being forced to. If they're not, forcing people into doing so just to get new abilities isn't going to win the devs any popularity.
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For example, lets assume that the next round of slots will have 2 more Incarnate Level Shifts in them. In that situation it's not unreasonable to assume that the trials for them will have enemies that are 54(+2) to compensate (i.e. you start the trials facing +3s and eventually improve to where you're fighting +1s). Now if the trials have the same rewards as BAF/Lambda everyone will opt to run those trials because fighting +1s is a lot easier than fighting +3s (and once you get the later shifts fighting -1s is easier than fighting +1s). People will naturally gravitate to the content that offers the best rewards/time, that's why ITF is run a lot more than STF and AE Fire Farms are run more than Developer's Choice Arcs. A progression system (which is what the Incarnate system is) needs to "encourage" players to move up the difficulty or the developers are wasting thier time with new content.
We're already seeing this somewhat with Keyes. People were clamoring for more trials and yet I would estimate that Keyes is being run maybe a third as much as Lambda/BAF. This is because while it is fun it takes longer and you can run Lambda + BAF in the same time frame. Some people run it for fun (or because they are desperate for E Merits) but most people are just running the old trials.
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It adds an element of planning to your incarnate build. When you choose a component you have that component, which can only be used in certain recipes. You can't just build up a reserve of Incarnate Components and then spend your way through a random tree. You have to know which abilities you want, which determines which components you choose. This becomes more pressing when it comes to rare and very rare components: they're either created from a large reserve of Empyrean Merits, or are a rare reward. Your selection becomes a commitment with consequences.|
Originally Posted by LordAethar
In fact, Incarnate Components don't even make sense to me from either a flavor standpoint or a mechanics standpoint.
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Whether or not build-planning and inventory-preparation is something one finds fun varies from person to person, though. It's kind of old-school. (Anyone remember when the grand-daddy of RPGs required specific components for each and every spell?)
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Originally Posted by LordAethar
E Merits could have just been distilled down into large number of A Merits. For that matter, why do we even need A Merits? It all converts down to x Threads anyway.
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Admittedly, Astral Merits do seem more superfluous. Everything in the Astral store could be bought with threads (Astral price multiplied by 4). Alternatively, every thread-based component could be bought with Astral Merits (thread price divided by 4 - and they're all priced at multiples of 4 already!) However, with no way to turn threads into Astrals, threads are only good for the crafting aspect of the Incarnate system and on their own are awarded randomly. Astrals are awarded consistently for specific actions during a trial and have a store. Perhaps the next set of slots will have a new basic component (let's just call them Incarnate Sparks to have something to visualize) but the trials awarding sparks will still award Astral and Empyrean Merits, too. In that case, Astrals would be more than just the bundles of threads they are now. Playing the old trials would slowly earn a still-useful currency; maybe you want to play something else for a change of pace, or help out a group that's still working on the first 5 slots. Being able to earn Astral Merits would enable players to play old content without feeling like they're not earning anything useful. Hopefully that's the reason for doing it that way! Otherwise there's not much reason to have both threads and Astrals.
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No, I'm not, because if something isn't worth running in terms of rewards/time that's a) a dumb design decision that's b) easily rectified: increase the payout.| You're confusing "worth running in terms of fun" with "worth running in terms of rewards/time". |
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| I am confident that whatever trials will be released with the new slots will be fun to run. |
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| We're already seeing this somewhat with Keyes. People were clamoring for more trials and yet I would estimate that Keyes is being run maybe a third as much as Lambda/BAF. This is because while it is fun it takes longer and you can run Lambda + BAF in the same time frame. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
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Ah, but that leads to another problem which is that it that the new content makes it to easy to get older rewards. Someone in this thread previously mentioned Aracanville's explanation as to the problem with awarding threads for non-iTrial content and the same basic principle applies here.|
Originally Posted by Venture
No, I'm not, because if something isn't worth running in terms of rewards/time that's a) a dumb design decision that's b) easily rectified: increase the payout.
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Let's assume that the goal is to have it take X runs of a "gear-appropriate" trial to achieve some level of advancement in the incarnate system and 5X runs of a "lower tier" trial to get the same advancement (this is roughly the relative scale given by the shards:thread conversion). Now if the new-slot trials used the same thread based rewards in order to achieve this balance they would need to provide 5 times the rewards of the old trials and the new slots would need to have 5 times the costs (i.e. you need 15 common components to make a tier 1 boost).
The problem then is that the newer trials become WAY to rewarding for the old slots. You could make an ability for each of A/J/I/L/D in the same number of trial runs as it takes to build an ability for just one of the new slots.
When the BAF/Lambda trials were released they provided an alternate method of acquiring Alpha slot abilities. However the cost in threads was the same as the cost for the new slots. If you could exchange threads for shards at a 1:1 ratio then getting an Alpha Slot ability through the trials would be trivial. Limiting the ability of threads to buy Alpha slot abilities means that level 50 TFs are still a time-competitive method of working on the Alpha slot.
Introducing new currencies allow the newer content to be the best option for gaining the new rewards without devaluing the older content as a means of getting older rewards. I'd prefer a "rolling currency" rather than introducing completely unique currencies just to make things easier to understand but I can live with unique currencies.
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This...|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
The only 'currency' I find unnecessary is Shards and Shard-components. The Thread-currency is more finely granular and can completely absorb and eliminate the Shard-currency.
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And also the two new 'currencies' coming with i21 that both have Paragon in their names. Designed to be confusing?
Edit to add:
1)The number of currencies isn't actually too high. But that there are too many currencies that do - in effect - the same thing. This is what is confusing (for me at any rate).
2)Conversion between types especially Empys and Astrals (but also shards and threads) are at awful exchange rates. Devs really need to sit down and sort out the absolute base exchange rate for top tier currency to basic tief of reward (not Inf, which isn't really a currency... and won't work unless recipes gain huge prices from vendors) then work up everything else from there. eg
LotG +Recharge:
32 Astrals
200 Reward Merits
2 Alignment Merits
Yet at the same time 1 astral = 1 reward merit??? Am I the only one who finds that odd?
Sure the devs need to add in a loss to transactions, just as they have a Inf sink in the AH. Otherwise prices will only go up.
3)Vanguard Merit could effectively be removed and replaced with a different mechanic to award the costume parts (rewards from the vanguard arcs?). The additional items could be rare (or not based on their current cost) drops from Rikti eg if an item currently costs 200 VM, you'd have a 200:1 chance to drop of any rikti that currently would drop a VM.
4)Remove AE tickets entirely, slightly improve all other AE drops (prestige, inf & XP). Yes it will cut down on the availability of some recipes and salvage. But even speaking as a AE farmer the whole AE farm situation is beyond mad. 1-50 in 6 hours?
Honestly they really should consolidate and streamline things and get 90% of things on the same system. There should be a single set of merits, tickets, and threads or whatever you decide to make the end game currency.
Currently having so many sets of merits is limiting and frustrating.
Problem is when a new feature is added to the game that has items that you can purchase, a new currency is added to prevent old timers who may have a lot of the previous currency(ies) available to them from getting a head start.
Start with inf.
Add Bases, add prestige. Prestige is attached to SG and not to character.
Attempt to level out trial and TF rewards, add Merits.
Add Vanguard, add V Credits for Vanguard items.
Add AE, add tickets.
Add side switching, add Hero/Villain Merits.
Add incarnate, add shards/threads
Add incarnate only items, add Astral/Empyrean Merits.
And we aren't talking about annual event only rewards like candy canes or Halloween masks.
Most of the non inf currencies can't be traded.
Now PR takes the place of Vet rewards but there is an indirect way to get them with real money. PP is the microtransaction currency which is real money. Both are account and not player based.
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