Not a very convincing argument. What's wrong with currencies?
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Salvage isn't currency. Especially non-tradeable salvage.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Can we please please talk about the ridiculous amount of currencies in the game right now?
There are like a dozen different merits, a bunch of incarnate piece types. Can we please consider reducing this to a slightly, slightly less confusing amount. |
And I think all the merits are like gift cards. last I checked, no matter how much is on it, Fry's won't let me buy computer parts on a blockbuster gift card, no matter how much is on it.
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How about the fact that I practically have to make a spread sheet to keep track of what character has which currency, how much of which currency is needed to obtain what purchase, how much of which currency is needed to upgrade or downgrade to another currency, and then...
I do enough banking in real life, currency management in a game simply takes too much of my time. The result is that I've given up seeking out particular rewards for certain characters because it just involves too much time and I'd rather play. But if I'm playing and want those rewards, I need to be involved in particular functions necessary to earn said rewards, which means tracking becomes necessary.
Just look at this list:
Inf
Tickets
Merits
Vanguard Merits
Alignment Merits
Astral Merits
Empyrean Merits
And soon: Paragon Points, Tokens, and who knows what's to come after that.
Then there are the components, some of which are so necessary to build practically anything in the end game they might as well be considered currenty, like shards and ribbons.
At least since having my account active during the 7 year promotion period, vanguard merits are largely unnecessary except for purchasing components or temps. But for other people that may want those pieces, they have to earn those merits and track their progress.
Some other games have moved to a system of current currency and past currency and thats it.
Everything is bought with one or the other.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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Extrapolating from your example, electronics stores generally do not have vids/cds/dvds/noms as their main focus. Likewise, the merits in CoH have specific purposes and levels of value. You are not going to be able to get a Rolls Royce Silver Ghost for one dollar. Expect to pay in the neighborhood of six (perhaps seven) figures for it. The same goes with CoH merits. |
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
Salvage isn't currency. Especially non-tradeable salvage.
And I think all the merits are like gift cards. last I checked, no matter how much is on it, Fry's won't let me buy computer parts on a blockbuster gift card, no matter how much is on it. |
You can get Uncommon and Rare recipes for 125-250 Reward Merits, but the Very Rare purples and/or PvPs are going to require the grinding for and expenditure of Alignment Merits or Empyrean Merits. Think of the different types of Merits as being like Dollars, Pounds, Euros, and Francs. Also consider that different countries may call their currency a "Dollar", but you'd be hard-pressed spending Canadian currencies in the USA.
Be happy that you have different options for obtaining much sought-after things. I loathe grinding through Incarnate Trials, but will happily run through Alignment Missions in order to get my Hero Merit, which I can eventually trade a few pawsful of for the purple recipe(s) I am looking for!
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For some reason, I just don't have a problem with the currencies, at all.
When do I get my titanic weapons?
-------
Hew in drag baby
The only 'currency' I find unnecessary is Shards and Shard-components. The Thread-currency is more finely granular and can completely absorb and eliminate the Shard-currency.
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And tokens won't require tracking (do you have to "track" your veteran rewards as you earn them now?), and (really) neither will Paragon points. Those are NOT per character, but per account. And neither of them are earn-able in game.
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Don't worry, we'll get another currency with the next release of Incarnate abilities, for the same (invalid) reason we got threads after shards.
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Quote:
Indeed.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Don't worry, we'll get another currency with the next release of Incarnate abilities, for the same (valid) reason we got threads after shards.
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Adding the threads didn't stop people from grabbing the next set of Incarnate abilities at warp speeds. Adding a new currency for the next set won't work either. It's a waste of effort that just adds another layer of obfuscation to the already obfuscated.
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Quote:
That was the first simplification that sprang to my mind. Shards could just be rolled into Threads. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
The only 'currency' I find unnecessary is Shards and Shard-components. The Thread-currency is more finely granular and can completely absorb and eliminate the Shard-currency.
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Overall the game is much more complex now than it was when it launched. Those of us who have been here for a long time can adapt to each new piece as it appears, but I have a lot of sympathy for new players who are hit by all that complexity at once.
The things you can buy with reward merits are pretty much the same as the things you can buy with AE tickets, right? What if we combined those two into a single currency somehow?
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See, people assume that was the intent of the currency switch but I do not buy it. If that was their goal then the devs screwed up by not putting a timer on the trial rewards. Now since the TF components all had a reward timer I really doubt they just happened to forget to put the trial ones on a timer.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Adding the threads didn't stop people from grabbing the next set of Incarnate abilities at warp speeds. Adding a new currency for the next set won't work either. It's a waste of effort that just adds another layer of obfuscation to the already obfuscated.
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Instead I'm pretty sure the purpose of the currency shift was to control what content could be used to progress through the new slots. The idea with the incarnate system is that you need to do Incarnate trials to progress, the Alpha slot serves as a bridge linking the old content to the new. In some ways I think introducing Incarnate Shards at all was a mistake. The purpose was to help ease people into the system by allowing them to start it through familiar content but it ended up giving people a false idea as to how the system would work.
But yes, I'm am sure the next round of slots will have a new currency. Not because the devs are trying to limit the speed we get it at but because they will want to stop us from progressing through the next slots by repeatedly running BAF/Lambda/Keyes (which I think we can run in our sleep by now). Instead the next slots will presumably feature a new round of trials which assume you already have your J/L/I/D abilities.
It would be nice (as Shubbie suggested) if when they implemented this change they depreciated either Threads or Shards so that there is only one currency needed to
'gear up" for the higher trials but I'm not going to hold my breath for that.
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I agree with Adeon. It was not to stop people who had been hoarding shards from quickly getting the next set of abilities. It was to make them do the incarnate trials in order to get the next set of abilities. Speed of acquisition did not play into the decision to add the next tier of incarnate currency.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Adding the threads didn't stop people from grabbing the next set of Incarnate abilities at warp speeds.
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However, I have always thought Shards should have been eliminated when threads were introduced. Arcanaville made a good point about why that won't work as cleanly as I had once hoped. She followed it up with a simpler version as well:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If we changed standard content so it dropped threads instead of shards, if we also converted the shard recipes into thread recipes people who actually did the trials could completely fill Alpha in the blink of an eye, because they earn threads faster. If we don't and we force those players to use the normal thread recipes their ability to earn Alpha would drop dramatically, because those recipes require more threads than the shard recipes require shards.
To put it another way, if we drop threads everywhere, then either standard content people earn threads way slower than trial players in which case they will be stuck earning Alpha much slower than trial players, or standard content players will earn Alpha about as fast as trial players, and that will mean they can also earn everything else equally fast, since threads are the single currency. |
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If that was the reason, why not just restrict running the new iTrials to a character having all 5 incarnate slots unlocked and slotted? There is already precedent for that with the Apex and Tin Mage trials. That way we won't need a new currency?
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Instead I'm pretty sure the purpose of the currency shift was to control what content could be used to progress through the new slots.
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Here's what I see as the list of currencies currently in City of Heroes.
Influence
Mission Architect Tickets
vanguard Merits
Reward Merits
Hero Reward Merits
Shards
Threads
Astral Merits
Empyreal Merits
Paragon Points
Veteran Reward Tokens
While Paragon Points and Vet Reward Tokens may not be earned through normal game play, they do directly connect to the game and affect game play. How would you explain all this to a new player. I was subjected to this stuff as specific issues were released. How would someone completely new to this game with no outside assistance figure this out? It seems like it would be quite overwhelming. If they are trying to attract new players to the game, is this the best way to do it?
I would drop tickets, vanguard, and hero merits for straight reward merits. Adjusting costs should make up for rarity on the different items.
I would also create one unit for incarnate items. The newer trials for unreleased incarnate powers would give much more of this resources than the current ones. To control who can access these new trials, just make the newer trials for the unreleased incarnate powers require something similar to Apex / Tin Mage. If you're not at least +3, you are lowered 4 levels and all mobs are level 56. (Level 56 AVs... ugh.) Maybe make incarnate merits that only earned in incarnate trials instead of Astral and Empyreal.
This makes the list...
Influence
Reward Merits
Incarnate Stuffs
Incarnate Merits
Paragon Points
Veteran Reward Tokens
Am I way off base here, or does this sound like it would work?
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Because that solves the opposite problem. The issue isn't people without the current slots running the new trials it's people using the OLD trials to fill the new slots. When the trials were first released they were somewhat tricky however now we've got them on farm mode. If the new-slot trials give the same rewards as Lambda/BAF/Keyes but are designed to only be doable by people with the current crop of slots then they will likely end up ignored in favor of farming BAF/Lambda/Keyes to open up all abilities. A new currency avoids that by limiting how far you can progress through particular content types. So currently you can progress up to Alpha slot by doing TFs and up to Destiny/Lore by doing the current crop of trials. Progression up to Omega will presumably be via a new tier of content rather than through repeating current content.|
Originally Posted by Kinrad
If that was the reason, why not just restrict running the new iTrials to a character having all 5 incarnate slots unlocked and slotted? There is already precedent for that with the Apex and Tin Mage trials. That way we won't need a new currency?
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as a side note I would actually quite like it if the devs figured out a way to do a "gear reset" so that the "up to Omega" set of trials provide a similar level of challenge both to people with all of the current slots and people with no Incarnate slots at all allowing people who haven't done the current trials to run the "up to Omega" ones on almost equal footing with people who have all T4s (for example they could have those trials disable your alpha level shift and incarnate shifts so everyone is facing +4s again).
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The newest trial, Keyes gives BOTH types of currency to get up to Lore. If the devs DID want to limit folks the fastest way to do that is to put on a timer. By not adding a timer it allows folks to get THREE emps a day and an INCREASED number of Astrals. All of those things can be converted to threads.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Because that solves the opposite problem. The issue isn't people without the current slots running the new trials it's people using the OLD trials to fill the new slots. When the trials were first released they were somewhat tricky however now we've got them on farm mode. If the new-slot trials give the same rewards as Lambda/BAF/Keyes but are designed to only be doable by people with the current crop of slots then they will likely end up ignored in favor of farming BAF/Lambda/Keyes to open up all abilities. A new currency avoids that by limiting how far you can progress through particular content types. So currently you can progress up to Alpha slot by doing TFs and up to Destiny/Lore by doing the current crop of trials. Progression up to Omega will presumably be via a new tier of content rather than through repeating current content.
as a side note I would actually quite like it if the devs figured out a way to do a "gear reset" so that the "up to Omega" set of trials provide a similar level of challenge both to people with all of the current slots and people with no Incarnate slots at all allowing people who haven't done the current trials to run the "up to Omega" ones on almost equal footing with people who have all T4s (for example they could have those trials disable your alpha level shift and incarnate shifts so everyone is facing +4s again). |
The current rewards for keeping Astrals and Emps whole ARE NOT impressive enough to people to NOT convert those to get later slots faster.
Unless there is no conversion mechanism (which I seriously doubt), even adding in new currency won't stop folks from using the old trials to advance faster in the new slots.
When we do eventually get new slots we may very well have FIVE trials that give out threads, astrals, and emps. Unless the devs don't come out with a conversion mechanism, a new currency won't slow anyone down in terms of hoarding or using the OLDER content to unlock new content.
Not buying the idea that a new currency by itself does anything useful.
The only way to REALLY stop people from using old content to get up faster in the new slots are:
1. Timer limit/Lockout which allows you to only do 3 of the 5 trials (ie you can only do Keyes, BAF and Lambda in a day, and can't do Hamidon and the 5th).
AND
New currency and NO CONVERSION to threads mechanism at launch.
If you don't do all these things at the SAME TIME by the time the new slots roll around folks will have:
a. stockpiled enough threads/shards to convert to a HUGE chunk of the new currency instantly.
b. they will simply run all 5 trials to get an insane amount AND THEN convert that to a HUGE chunk of the new currency instantly.
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No.|
Originally Posted by NuclearTwinkie
I would drop tickets ...for straight reward merits.
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Just no.
Deprecating Hero/Villain Merits and adjusting the costs of Reward Merit items doesn't take into account the loss of alignment-specific currency for changing alignments. It also means the rogue/vigilante alignments can build currency and then change to hero/villain to spend it 1:1 on items in the alignment-specific store, which I don't think is how the system is intended to be used.
Architect Tickets are part of a practically self-contained world, so I don't see that contributing to currency proliferation. It'd probably upset people more if AE granted general-use currency other than Inf/XP. Some people would be happy if AE didn't have any rewards, but not every AE arc is a farm. Players would be less likely to try stuff in AE if there weren't any rewards for doing them. I'm also pretty sure AE tickets can only buy recipe rolls, not specific recipes (which Reward Merits can buy).
Hero/Villain Merits aren't an issue until level 20. Also, free players won't have access to the tip system. Premium players would need to buy Going Rogue.
Vanguard Merits aren't an issue until level 35.
Shards, Threads, and Incarnate Merits aren't an issue until level 50. Also, only VIPs can make use of Incarnate content. There's been no indication that you can buy Incarnate access as a Premium player.
Since the currencies are introduced gradually as you play, I doubt it would be overwhelming. Also, the new tutorial is supposed to include a section on using the new store, taking care of the Paragon Points thing; and there's a Tier 1 for Paragon Rewards that even a new account will have, so I imagine using a Reward Token will also be part of the tutorial.
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In many ways I would have liked this. I would have implemented two reward types, call them Incarnate XP (iXP) and Extreme Incarnate XP (XiXP) because I suck at naming things. The idea would be that you have two resources you spend both for opening up new slots and building abilities. The reason for having two resources is to setup a rolling depreciation. The second resource (XiXP) would be awarded for completion of the highest tier activities and could be used on any Incarnate slot. The first resource would be awarded from any level 50 activity (so TFs and maybe general level 50 missions) but could only be used on older slots.|
Originally Posted by NuclearTwinkie
I would also create one unit for incarnate items. The newer trials for unreleased incarnate powers would give much more of this resources than the current ones.
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As new content/slots were released the resource needed to buy older slots and the resource awarded for older content is downgraded to match.
For example, using the current content level 50 TFs would award iXP which could be used to create Alpha abilities. The trials would award XiXP which could be sued for anything. In the future when the next tier of slots is released the current crop of trials are downgraded to only award iXP but iXP could then be used to make any of the first five slots. Additionally all XiXP stored on characters would be downgraded to iXP (note that this does not actually devalue the currency, it can still buy exactly what it could before, it is simply a solution to hoarding).
The other advantage of this is that it makes it much easier to balance rewards amongst differnet content types. Keyes is unpopular at the moment because it's longer than BAF/Lambda, one option would be to have it drop more XiXP than the other two to make it worth running in terms of rewards/time. Similarly things like the WST could provide a slower but easier path to get XiXP for people who don't like trials.
Now the path the devs actually took is what you might call a "flavor" path. It is more complicated than a simple "currency" style path but in turn provides a collection and sorting aspect which presumably appeals to some people. The other downside is that it makes it a LOT harder to depreciate and consolidating existing currencies when moving up the curve. It's possible but more complicated.
As others have noted when new trials are released if they want to have the new slots only accessible through the new currency we'll have three Incarnate currencies instead of two. Now it is still technically possible for them to, at that time, condense Threads and Shards into a single currency but doing so in a seamless manner is going to be hard. If I were doing it I'd standardize on shards and automatically convert all existing components. Threads would become shards at a 5:1 ratio and all components would be downgraded using a standard rule for both salvage and recipes. So if, for example, all Supercharged Capacitors become Dimensional Keystones all recipes needing a Supercharged Capacitor now need a Dimensional Keystone. At this point there is only one set of components for the first five slots and since recipes and salvage use the same conversion rules everybody maintains their current progress on all existing slots (well, ok, they potentially lose a partial shard due to the 5:1 conversion). The TFs would keep their current rewards and the current crop of trials would be changed to have a Shard-based component drop. There would also need to be some housekeeping stuff such as new conversions for Astrals/Empryeans and downgrade/sidegrade recipes for Shard based components.
This would also solve the "gearing up" issue. If no one is running the older trials then level 50 TFs are a viable method of getting level shifts and such for the newer trials.
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I generally agree with most of this. Though I still take issue with the currency creep in the trials. There is a better way to handle that. See my post above.|
Originally Posted by ScottyB
Deprecating Hero/Villain Merits and adjusting the costs of Reward Merit items doesn't take into account the loss of alignment-specific currency for changing alignments. It also means the rogue/vigilante alignments can build currency and then change to hero/villain to spend it 1:1 on items in the alignment-specific store, which I don't think is how the system is intended to be used.
Architect Tickets are part of a practically self-contained world, so I don't see that contributing to currency proliferation. It'd probably upset people more if AE granted general-use currency other than Inf/XP. Some people would be happy if AE didn't have any rewards, but not every AE arc is a farm. Players would be less likely to try stuff in AE if there weren't any rewards for doing them. I'm also pretty sure AE tickets can only buy recipe rolls, not specific recipes (which Reward Merits can buy). Hero/Villain Merits aren't an issue until level 20. Also, free players won't have access to the tip system. Premium players would need to buy Going Rogue. Vanguard Merits aren't an issue until level 35. Shards, Threads, and Incarnate Merits aren't an issue until level 50. Also, only VIPs can make use of Incarnate content. There's been no indication that you can buy Incarnate access as a Premium player. Since the currencies are introduced gradually as you play, I doubt it would be overwhelming. Also, the new tutorial is supposed to include a section on using the new store, taking care of the Paragon Points thing; and there's a Tier 1 for Paragon Rewards that even a new account will have, so I imagine using a Reward Token will also be part of the tutorial. |
I will say that with the ability to start at lvl of ANY alignment coming, I'd prefer if they added a tf or arc that can be done to alignment switch.
With that I'd also drop the number from 10 to 5, of required tips before getting the alignment mission. (You'd still need 10 if you want to go for a Hero or Villain Merit--though I don't see an issue switching those to the equivalent number of straight Reward merits for the number of random rolls you get).
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You also bring up another issue that I mention from time to time but folks seem to ignore: What happens when they start moving beyond Omega? How many currencies will you have then? Surely you'll have MUCH more than 3 (or 4 if they want to further differentiate Omega and the last two or three slots, from the next two or three right after LORE). I agree that you IXP and EXP (lol) idea would have been MUCH simpler than the path they've set themselves up on currently. Especially if they even want to retroactively consolidate anything, as you pointed out.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
In many ways I would have liked this. I would have implemented two reward types, call them Incarnate XP (iXP) and Extreme Incarnate XP (XiXP) because I suck at naming things. The idea would be that you have two resources you spend both for opening up new slots and building abilities. The reason for having two resources is to setup a rolling depreciation. The second resource (XiXP) would be awarded for completion of the highest tier activities and could be used on any Incarnate slot. The first resource would be awarded from any level 50 activity (so TFs and maybe general level 50 missions) but could only be used on older slots.
As new content/slots were released the resource needed to buy older slots and the resource awarded for older content is downgraded to match. For example, using the current content level 50 TFs would award iXP which could be used to create Alpha abilities. The trials would award XiXP which could be sued for anything. In the future when the next tier of slots is released the current crop of trials are downgraded to only award iXP but iXP could then be used to make any of the first five slots. Additionally all XiXP stored on characters would be downgraded to iXP (note that this does not actually devalue the currency, it can still buy exactly what it could before, it is simply a solution to hoarding). The other advantage of this is that it makes it much easier to balance rewards amongst differnet content types. Keyes is unpopular at the moment because it's longer than BAF/Lambda, one option would be to have it drop more XiXP than the other two to make it worth running in terms of rewards/time. Similarly things like the WST could provide a slower but easier path to get XiXP for people who don't like trials. Now the path the devs actually took is what you might call a "flavor" path. It is more complicated than a simple "currency" style path but in turn provides a collection and sorting aspect which presumably appeals to some people. The other downside is that it makes it a LOT harder to depreciate and consolidating existing currencies when moving up the curve. It's possible but more complicated. As others have noted when new trials are released if they want to have the new slots only accessible through the new currency we'll have three Incarnate currencies instead of two. Now it is still technically possible for them to, at that time, condense Threads and Shards into a single currency but doing so in a seamless manner is going to be hard. If I were doing it I'd standardize on shards and automatically convert all existing components. Threads would become shards at a 5:1 ratio and all components would be downgraded using a standard rule for both salvage and recipes. So if, for example, all Supercharged Capacitors become Dimensional Keystones all recipes needing a Supercharged Capacitor now need a Dimensional Keystone. At this point there is only one set of components for the first five slots and since recipes and salvage use the same conversion rules everybody maintains their current progress on all existing slots (well, ok, they potentially lose a partial shard due to the 5:1 conversion). The TFs would keep their current rewards and the current crop of trials would be changed to have a Shard-based component drop. There would also need to be some housekeeping stuff such as new conversions for Astrals/Empryeans and downgrade/sidegrade recipes for Shard based components. This would also solve the "gearing up" issue. If no one is running the older trials then level 50 TFs are a viable method of getting level shifts and such for the newer trials. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
I cut your post to avoid inflating the thread but I did read it and I have to say I really do not understand your point.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
The newest trial, Keyes gives BOTH types of currency to get up to Lore. If the devs DID want to limit folks the fastest way to do that is to put on a timer. By not adding a timer it allows folks to get THREE emps a day and an INCREASED number of Astrals. All of those things can be converted to threads.
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I do not consider Keyes to be a new tier of trial, it is an addition to the existing tiers. It was always possible to get up to Lore and Destiny running just BAF/Lambda so all Keyes does is provide a bit more variety and potentially slightly faster advancement if you run all three together. The fact that it gives both types of iXP doesn't really matter, iXP is a minor part of getting the abilities slotted and apart from that all three trials offer the same rewards.
Yes, new Lore abilities were released at the same time as Keyes but those were an expansion of an existing slot rather than a new slot. The original Lore abilities are still perfectly valid and the new ones are about variety not power (other than the fact that they aren't perfectly balanced).
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1. Timer limit/Lockout which allows you to only do 3 of the 5 trials (ie you can only do Keyes, BAF and Lambda in a day, and can't do Hamidon and the 5th). AND New currency and NO CONVERSION to threads mechanism at launch. If you don't do all these things at the SAME TIME by the time the new slots roll around folks will have: a. stockpiled enough threads/shards to convert to a HUGE chunk of the new currency instantly. b. they will simply run all 5 trials to get an insane amount AND THEN convert that to a HUGE chunk of the new currency instantly. |
I think implementing a similarly punitive upgrade path on the new slots would be sufficient friction to encourage running the next round of trials (the current one is about 5:1). Yes, some people will have sufficient stockpiled stuff to get a head start on the new slots but once that is gone the new trials will likely be much more lucrative since you would need to run 5 BAFs/Lambdas to get the rewards from one tier 2 trial. Now this does not necessarily solve the issue of people running the easier/shorter trials within the existing set and I think it would be nice to see the rewards for Keyes upped a little bit to encourage running it more.
Can we please please talk about the ridiculous amount of currencies in the game right now?
There are like a dozen different merits, a bunch of incarnate piece types.
Can we please consider reducing this to a slightly, slightly less confusing amount.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.