Every 2% of resistance blocks the same amount of damage as 1% of defense. Defense has the major advantage that it blocks non-damaging effects, but resistance is more reliable because a)An unlucky run from the RNG won't kill you, b)Res debuffs are not nearly as common as def debuffs, and c) ToHit debuffs directly negate def, but damage buffs are mitigated by res like any other damage.
So def is better when it works, but it's less reliable, which is a fair balance.
Also note, that layering def with resist is good, it's usually better to stack the same type with eachother. The more res you have, the less valuable each percentage point of def is, and visa versa. So as long as you are not hitting the cap on either, it's usually better to stack res with res and def with def.
Example-
You have 60% resistance, and have a choice to add either 20% resistance or 10% defense. Your are target by an attack that deals 100 base damage and has standard(50%) hit rate.
80% res = 10 average damage(100 * .5 * .2)
60% res 10% def = 16 average damage(100* .4 * .4)
And the opposite, you have 30% def, and have the same choice and the same attack
40% def = 10 average damage(100 *.1 * 1)
30% def, 20% res = 16 average damage(100 * .2 * .8)
Code:
So this is what I managed. I wanted Lash as well, but Corruption should be fine enough. Spirituality to get as close to perma Melt Armor as possible, which would arguably help me deal more damage than Musculature would.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1422;679;1358;HEX;| |78DA7593CB6F524114C667B817110A054AE9838A2D7D17E402B10B77265A4DD4521| |B6BDC363772DBDE84570A24BAF36FD0C4B636B6D53F436BA246F7C69DAF68DD6952| |75A16B3C9C6F5A6A6EBC017ECC993367BEF9E6DCFCAD19BF1077CE0A193A5F346BB| |5C5BC59AB5BAB25BB5CF0CC99F5C6AA59141E2144A21D5F5C68944A95B23163D1AF| |1AD8E5E5A319E71A4B4BC6F5151A99C5C56B66C136EB76A51CBE54A69055AE1B077| |F82F3954AD198B5CC82B55A5BB1ABFE8371950AFA78B050B5AC4280FF5EB49757EA| |3411BB50B56F1A47B6CB3794ECDB7D243545DF8D90504FD32D3E12E2C2F50E78CFD| |0F70939A17F671CFBC37812385CA58B2B92676619C7F3C01CC37795F194D225D25D| |32899934C36F30D64985A6EA696B8409E15F67746E000F18A14DC626A5BB912EDC0| |9561426EF3D12E7F044B9E8091FE0679C0C009D4090F18C847995302F847543580F| |843DA49D3A943D1DD3045D133D8A7D67FE650C4EC5E0D42E950EA82305605108167| |5C1A22E58D40D8BBA487F10FA451047DAA2BDC36AEFF09EAB7519C92F8C539F80AF| |C0373625FDDBC5C2A95044158AC088610A45117245535C7B084800114AE84582DEB| |BC56512DBC00E63E411F098B14DC2FA95B07E34CB089A65F40380461ADD6361E39F| |19CFC98D01AC9203D8771C909E563624C79BF4881DDA61504506E1C60B5A3EACAE6| |A3886E5C004AABCA484312468636F59E8C41BE03523F98AB14B8D3689C36A93B8F3| |295CF654CB83B8C8F43134529552AEA5D01469E4A5B14AA70443B59C01A73368B90| |C5A2E8796CBA1E57268B96E5A955547CBAA46D50FDF26FAB4CE9F7444B28E48CE11| |39ED884C3B22B38E48BE15C1319AF3FAE18B2A24CF7ADB6F6673DF47B3F2E8ECCF7| |644CACBB275CD5337F84C3F1CB9BFDA114DAEF1550CDD05EEE37EEE319AFF7BF211| |9A5642FF02CE900D33| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
I was tempted to drop Cauterize for Lash, due to not liking MM healing numbers, but eh. The only way I can see myself, practically, getting more +Recharge is to drop Assault, Vengeance, and Combat Jumping for the Concealment pool. And bleh on that.
Edit: Made it a little better! Maybe.
Quote:
true. thermal offers a solid multitool. |
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Many people say of Sonic "why roll Sonic when there's Thermal?" and I think this is a good case in point.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
With Demons/Thermal the MM himself is VERY squishy
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my demon/thermal eats gms and avs at breakfast. i seriously doubt that demon/sonic will be able to do it, lack of heals is nothing you can compensate with pool powers.
Quote:
sonic also lacks debuffs other than just -resist and a little -def in liquify|
Originally Posted by kalashnikow
my demon/thermal eats gms and avs at breakfast. i seriously doubt that demon/sonic will be able to do it, lack of heals is nothing you can compensate with pool powers.
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thermal has a benumb clone which has the -500% regen debuff to kill the regen on most anything (it doesnt do the -special that benumb has, but its still very good)
personally the only reason why you would pick sonic over thermal is if you wanted a permanent source of mez protection before getting to incarnate stuff lol
mez protection can be compensated with inspiration if need. healing can not, well not for needed amount.
Quote:
... or I could take hibernate as an APP power.|
Originally Posted by kalashnikow
true. thermal offers a solid multitool.
sure. take scorpion shield, tough/weave and maneuvers+assault. problem solved. still you have heals and better buffs. my demon/thermal eats gms and avs at breakfast. i seriously doubt that demon/sonic will be able to do it, lack of heals is nothing you can compensate with pool powers. |
The -regen is the big BIG difference, thermal over sonic, I agree.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Looks like MM's /sonic is very similar to Corr's. That's a good thing. :P
22.5% resist debuff from first power and disruption.
15% shield and 11.25% dispersion.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
in what universe is demon/sonic better then /thermal or /traps? No defense? No AoE healing?
Thermal has nearly as much res debuff, nearly as much res buff but does HEAL. Traps has MORE res debuff and the otion to cap def pets, tons of CC and a good chunk of regen.
Quote:
Looks like MMs are getting a bargain with /Sonic. |
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Word of warning - an actively attacking MM with Demon's Whips + Sonic's toggles is going to be challenged by endurance management. Have your merit farmer earn a lvl 20 Miracle unique for immediate usage at lvl 17, is my advice. Thinking of Disruption Field's end cost increasing (as per usual for MMs) makes my spine shiver.
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Disruption Field and Sonic Dispersion, according to the in-game #s on beta, are 1.04 and .52 respectively, which matches the other 3 ATs.
Perhaps I should be abiding by Fight Club rule #1, but this just can't be right, FF's Dispersion Bubble costs .52 for Defs and Trollers, .65 for MMs. I wouldn't expect Sonic numbers to stay the same, but if they do, then MM Sonic endurance management will go from prohibitive to merely challenging.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
Ageless makes endo a non issue, since sonic doesnt really need clarion.
Quote:
In my personal opinion, alpha cardiac would work better with DS/sonic to decrease end cost and INCREASE damage resistance |
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Ageless makes endo a non issue, since sonic doesnt really need clarion.
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Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Quote:
I don't think it would be needed. Maybe for the end reduction, but I'm sure I could make an endurance sustainable DS/Sonic without incarnate goodies.|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
In my personal opinion, alpha cardiac would work better with DS/sonic to decrease end cost and INCREASE damage resistance
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DS/Sonic could cap pet resistances with only one of the resistance unique IOs, so there's no reason to make the resistances any higher in my opinion.
What I plan to do is throw in a Musculature to push their damage over the top to be doubly enhanced by all the -resist being thrown about.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I was thinking pet endurance and ally resistances over ED cap.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I don't think it would be needed. Maybe for the end reduction, but I'm sure I could make an endurance sustainable DS/Sonic without incarnate goodies.
DS/Sonic could cap pet resistances with only one of the resistance unique IOs, so there's no reason to make the resistances any higher in my opinion. What I plan to do is throw in a Musculature to push their damage over the top to be doubly enhanced by all the -resist being thrown about. |
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Quote:
Teammates are just henchmen that are even worse at following orders. If my demons are capped, I don't care about the rest of the team.
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Originally Posted by Psylenz
I was thinking pet endurance and ally resistances over ED cap.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Even if demon/sonic is a subpar soloer? |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Teammates are just henchmen that are even worse at following orders. If my demons are capped, I don't care about the rest of the team.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
Even if demon/sonic is a subpar soloer?
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That shouldn't be an issue. Granted, i still think demon/thermal would be slightly better due to being able to put forth close to the resistance cap, and have healing to back it up, but /sonic should be able to solo, and solo well.
The core problem will be the healing. Even at those large resistance numbers, they will take continuous damage, and need the healing to keep them going. Sonic sacrifices the healing for... nothing worthwhile.
Early on, heals will be tough but at level 32, I would hope that ember demons AoE heal would cover a lot of the regeneration the other demons need.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Considering said heal is...
1) Fairly unsubstantial
and
2) On a massive 25 (or 35?) second cooldown...
It won't.
Quote:
Why are you so negative? Your analysis on time manipulation is so full of disdain and now your again putting down another build submission. Obv you pointed the weakness you forsee and yet people will still play this because it will be fun to them. Its almost as if bots/traps or thugs/dark or w/e combination of those 2 has ruined the MM class for you. I personally have 5 lvl 50 MMs all purpled accoladed out to the billions(in fact im finishing up my most expensive build for my bots/traps soon when i purchase a panacea for my triage beacon all the while having 193% global recharge and ofcourse capped def) yet i still love my "subpar" necro/storm and ninja/storm. I for one cant wait for issue 21 because i already have saved up the IOs for a necro/time and demons/sonic as soon as i can make them. Will they be the +4/x8 multiple AV/EB/GM game destroyer like my bots/traps prob not but i will still enjoy them. I dont want every damn combo to be the OPness that is bots/traps i just want it fun and enoyable.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Considering said heal is...
1) Fairly unsubstantial and 2) On a massive 25 (or 35?) second cooldown... It won't. |
Super quick spot impression:
I did a quick demon/sonic test the other night (couple RWZ rikti missions), bumped to 50. T1 Cardiac alpha, +5% def +10% res ios, rest basic SOs.
It was no stronger than nin/time and, indeed, felt weaker at least vs. rikti.
There are a couple factors at play here, and my non-optimal build was definitely one of them. Lack of healing compared to time was also pretty noticable - even with really solid resists (I want to say pets were at 81% or so S/L, rest less).
I'll try and put some more time in tonight and shift the build around a bit.
It was definitely more "fun" for me than anything /ff, and I think it will be a really solid team contributor (I *love* sonic in teams), but I'm not expecting this to be the new bots/traps or bot/dark or anything. If I had the time I'd go through the patron arc so I could get Scorpion Shield and see how close I could get to S/L/E softcap with IOs, maybe try messing with aid self + taunt/tankermind build, etc.
I don't think I'll be running it as a "main" mm, but I'll definitely be doing some kind of /son in a new 2 or 3-box mm team.
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
I honestly don't think sonic is going to be all that great. Actually, it's.... probably going to suck really bad.
I'll elaborate
Sonic, unlike newer sets, is saddled with two powers so situational that they are neigh useless. Of coarse I speak of Cage and Repulsion.
Resistance sets are inferior to defense sets. Not only is defense it's own mez protection (since you can't mez what you can't hit) but defense percentage is twice as effective as resistance. It only take 45% defense to reach soft cap which blocks 90% of incoming damage. You would need a resistance level of 90% to match that but the % on both resistance and defense buffs are the same so right there defense buffs are twice as effective as resistance buffs. 15% defense from a defense buff set bring me a lot closer to 45% cap than 15% resistance from resistance sets bring me to 90% resistance. Sonics still have that Psi damage hole that defense buff sets don't. Also, unlike EVERY other resistance set, Sonic has no healing to make up for it's inferiority to defense. Anyone who's ever played a /fire MM knows that even demons with /fire shields need healed CONSTANTLY to be kept alive. The 17% resistance from Dispersion isn't going to compensate for spammed heals. In short, you're going to be re-summoning a LOT.
To use disruption field you need a melee pet so that makes sonic pointless for mercs and bots. And holy crap the endurance cost to run dispersion and disruption for an MM is going to be insane. MM take 25% (?) more endurance to use their powers. So to run them both with cost 1.95/sec before enhancement. .90 with ED capped endurance reduction.
So, sonics might be passable on demons since there's a lot of synergy there but with any other pet type it's gonna fail pretty badly.
I had hoped that, since they were porting it anyway, they'd give Sonic some much needed love. Close the Psi hole and give the Resistance %s a boost to make them competitive with defense buff sets.
Frankly, I would MUCH rather have seen Cold Domination ported over which is superior to Sonic in EVERY WAY.
"The bird of Hermes is my name. Eating my wings to make me tame." -The Ripley Scroll
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lobster
Super quick spot impression:
I did a quick demon/sonic test the other night (couple RWZ rikti missions), bumped to 50. T1 Cardiac alpha, +5% def +10% res ios, rest basic SOs. It was no stronger than nin/time and, indeed, felt weaker at least vs. rikti. There are a couple factors at play here, and my non-optimal build was definitely one of them. Lack of healing compared to time was also pretty noticable - even with really solid resists (I want to say pets were at 81% or so S/L, rest less). I'll try and put some more time in tonight and shift the build around a bit. It was definitely more "fun" for me than anything /ff, and I think it will be a really solid team contributor (I *love* sonic in teams), but I'm not expecting this to be the new bots/traps or bot/dark or anything. If I had the time I'd go through the patron arc so I could get Scorpion Shield and see how close I could get to S/L/E softcap with IOs, maybe try messing with aid self + taunt/tankermind build, etc. I don't think I'll be running it as a "main" mm, but I'll definitely be doing some kind of /son in a new 2 or 3-box mm team. |
Pretty much what I expected. If you can't clearly see the benefit of Demon/Sonic (which is an obvious good combo for sonic), then /sonic will be even worse on other primaries like Ninja/Necro.
Oh, I haven't tried Time. Time is good with Ninja?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Forgive Reppu, he is extremely negative and very dismissive of views that aren't his own, especially on the help channel on Virtue. Often takes the opposite view just to keep the argument going.|
Originally Posted by Vinceq1980
Why are you so negative? Your analysis on time manipulation is so full of disdain and now your again putting down another build submission. Obv you pointed the weakness you forsee and yet people will still play this because it will be fun to them. Its almost as if bots/traps or thugs/dark or w/e combination of those 2 has ruined the MM class for you. I personally have 5 lvl 50 MMs all purpled accoladed out to the billions(in fact im finishing up my most expensive build for my bots/traps soon when i purchase a panacea for my triage beacon all the while having 193% global recharge and ofcourse capped def) yet i still love my "subpar" necro/storm and ninja/storm. I for one cant wait for issue 21 because i already have saved up the IOs for a necro/time and demons/sonic as soon as i can make them. Will they be the +4/x8 multiple AV/EB/GM game destroyer like my bots/traps prob not but i will still enjoy them. I dont want every damn combo to be the OPness that is bots/traps i just want it fun and enoyable.
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Back to the topic. I like time over sonic. Now that i think of it, i guess it just depends on your playstyle. if you are going for a tank, i think time wins out, but if you are sending the pets in to tank, sonic would be better.
Hrm. I see. Well, I might need to play around with Demons/Therm then. I just need to either make, or get, a build that fills my appetite for +Recharge and utility.