I've never played Demons, so how much do they melee? I would think Thugs/sonic would be an easy match due to putting DF on the bruiser.
This combination is the first thing I thought of when I saw the proliferation list.
My stuff to do list just got bigger...
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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The numbers you used is based on Corruptor's version? I didn't know about:
Hellfire Demonling Attacks: -30%
Hellfire Gargoyle Attacks: -40%
The pets themselves can debuff up to 30% and 40%? Are you sure about this? I have a lvl 32 Demon/TA who I no longer play and I've never noticed that strong of resistance debuffs.
I still think /sonic is going to be under-performing for most primaries. Demon (and maybe Thug) is the only one that I think may work (due to the reasons you have listed above).
Resistance-set on pets just don't work as well unless you have constant healing to back it up. That's why I think /Thermal works well on Demon. Demon themselves have some healing and they offer even more resistance.
I don't think Demon/Sonic is going to any more "over-powering" than Demon/Trap or Demon/Dark.
/Sonic is going to be terrible on Ninja for sure but resistance is harder to get than defense so if you plan to team with others, /sonic can be a good thing.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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In my experience, they live in melee.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
I've never played Demons, so how much do they melee?
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
The numbers you used is based on Corruptor's version? I didn't know about:
Hellfire Demonling Attacks: -30% Hellfire Gargoyle Attacks: -40% |
According to Redtomax.com, the hellfire demonling attack has a -15% resistance debuff to it, and hellfire has -20%. I'm assuming they can keep two stacks of this debuff on targets.
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Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Pet resistance caps are 90% and you didn't figure in the 2 pets +10% resistance IOs so they can easily reach the cap, however pets have so little health that capped resistance isn't like it is on a Tank or Brute.
My demons had capped resistance on a BAF the other night and Siege still one shotted all but the Prince with one AoE. 
Demons/Sonic will def be the best combos for /sonic.
Level 50s: to many to remember at this point
just an FYI, ember shield can be enhanced
im also fairly sure that pet resist cap is only 75%, mm pets and regular critters are considered 2 different entities and they have different caps (which is also why +rech does not affect mm pets)
Let me begin picking nits - Sonic Dispersion is listed in the OP with 2 different values. I would expect the actual MM value to be the 16% ish number, not the 22.5%, since 16 is the troller ED capped value.
Many people say of Sonic "why roll Sonic when there's Thermal?" and I think this is a good case in point.
26.145 + 22.5 + 10 + 20 (pet ios) = 78.645. I confess I haven't checked when any of MM pets get the Dmg Resists capped, so I'm not sure if it's 75 or 90. If I had to bet, I'd bet on 75. If it is 75, then Thermal caps them too. If it's 90, then the question becomes, is 90% resists for pets better than 78% resists with heals to back them up? I wouldn't even begin to get into that without knowing the actual caps.
A point about Sonic Siphon, just to say it, it's a single target debuff that doesn't stack.
I'm going to assume the -res numbers are correct, though I have my suspicions as well. I suspect the -40% comes from an assumption of the Corruption attack stacking. So this best case number is a single target best case. So taking out the Sonic debuffs, you have 88.75%. A diligent Therm, with good recharge, can keep Forge up on all his pets. For simplicity I'm going to assume that to be the case.
In this "best case" for Sonic, the pet damage will be (1 + .95) * (1+ 1.3375) = 4.56. The "best case" for Thermal is (1 + .95 + .3) * (1 + 0.8875) = 4.25. But wait, there's more, when Melt Armor is up, that's another 30% resist, taking Thermal to 4.92. Additionally the +DMG buff from Forge is not subject to the purple patch so the Thermal will look even better as mob level rises.
I'm really not trying to poop on anyone's parade and I'm not trying to temper anyone's enthusiasm. However, I don't expect this combo to be OP and if it is, you can meet or exceed that same performance today.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Yes I did, see:|
Originally Posted by Brynstar
...and you didn't figure in the 2 pets +10% resistance IOs so they can easily reach the cap...
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
...add in two pet unique IOs and your Demonlings will hit the 90% hard cap..
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
just an FYI, ember shield can be enhanced
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Can anyone get some testing of this done? I'll do it tonight if no one else can.
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Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
ive been playing mm's for 5 years, im fairly confident the resist cap for pets is only 75% lol
very very easy way to test this is just feed a bunch of orange insp to your pet
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Good catch, I've updated the OP.|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Let me begin picking nits - Sonic Dispersion is listed in the OP with 2 different values. I would expect the actual MM value to be the 16% ish number, not the 22.5%, since 16 is the troller ED capped value.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
26.145 + 22.5 + 10 + 20 (pet ios) = 78.645. I confess I haven't checked when any of MM pets get the Dmg Resists capped, so I'm not sure if it's 75 or 90. If I had to bet, I'd bet on 75. If it is 75, then Thermal caps them too. If it's 90, then the question becomes, is 90% resists for pets better than 78% resists with heals to back them up? I wouldn't even begin to get into that without knowing the actual caps.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
I suspect the -40% comes from an assumption of the Corruption attack stacking.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
A diligent Therm, with good recharge, can keep Forge up on all his pets.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
However, I don't expect this combo to be OP and if it is, you can meet or exceed that same performance today.
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I think I agree with you, though, that this comes down to the same argument as Forcefields or Traps?
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Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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It is just like Fort, as far as duration and base recharge go (120 and 60 respectively). So with maxing out the recharge of Forge, you can keep it up on 4 henchmen. With recharge bonuses and hasten it can go up to 6 reasonably enough. The harder part is the "diligence" to use it as soon as it recharges, at least it is for me.
| I did not realize Forge recharged in half the duration at base. I had actually assumed it to be more like Fortitude |
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Do you mean cold? I have never heard an argument comparing ff to traps.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I think I agree with you, though, that this comes down to the same argument as Forcefields or Traps?
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Shows how much I know about Fortitude. Wonder why it's so rare that I see more than one application on a team?|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
It is just like Fort, as far as duration and base recharge go (120 and 60 respectively). So with maxing out the recharge of Forge, you can keep it up on 4 henchmen. With recharge bonuses and hasten it can go up to 6 reasonably enough. The harder part is the "diligence" to use it as soon as it recharges, at least it is for me.
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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Do you mean cold? I have never heard an argument comparing ff to traps.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Just to show I'm not just a "hater", I do think Sonic offers some interesting tricks, in no small parts due to Dispersion. I think my Sonic/ Defender is my toughest squishie due to high resists and (almost) soft-capped range defense, not to mention mez protection.
I feel like I have to make a /Sonic MM, just to be a completist, I have a 50 Sonic for the other 3 ATs, lord knows why. In my head, I think I'd go for tankerminding and build up s/l Defense, probably content to get to the 33% number. Demons does sound better than Thugs for this since they provide their own heals. Heck, I'm sure I'll make a Demon/Sonic too. I actually do think that would be pretty dang solid, I'm just wary of "OP"
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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I thought of it but not for OP as **** reasons.. no|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
This combination is the first thing I thought of when I saw the proliferation list.
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I want to park a bunch of Demons/Sonic with a shield on autofire in the freedom Atlas AE for hours. Your ears will be bleeding!
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I'm not sure. Personally I think Demons/Sonic and Demons/Thermal are going to be noticeably different creatures. With Demons/Thermal the MM himself is VERY squishy, I have to use my pets to take aggro because if I get any significant aggro (such as from an ambush) bodyguard mode causes my pet's health to drop at an alarming rate (often faster than I can kill them). Additionally having no defense means that I'm extremely vulnerable to mezzes. Switching to Sonic Resonance adds a decent chunk of resistance and mez protection to the MM making Tankerminding a lot more practical.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
EDIT: After other facts have come to light, Thermal pretty much does all this but better. Well, at least you can get personal status protection from Sonic. You can now disregard the rest of this post.
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Additionally Sonic has more reliable -resistances than Thermal which should mean more damage. I don't think Demons/Sonic is going to approach the OP-ness of Bots/Traps but I think it does offer some potential opportunities that Demons/Thermal does not.
Yes, Demon/Sonic will be its own animal for sure. Will it be a better animal? I'm not sure, but I plan to find out. I'll be very happy with the personal mez protection especially, but I will miss the utility of Heat Exhaustion and a heal (Yeah, I'd only take one). It will be nice to be able to skip a few Sonic powers to fit the whip attacks.
Most importantly, though, the concept I have is just too good to pass up.
The concept is that of a super egotistical stage magician who is actually rather inept (if you're familiar with the Harry Potter series, think Gilderoy Lockheart). This guy has a microphone tacked to his collar and has speakers woven into his coat so he can perform anywhere he goes. One day, he tries a complicated "trick" he found in an old book and accidentally causes a swarm of demons to burn down his favorite theater.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
its 90%
i tested how high the rescap for henchmen is. there were pruple ingamenumbers at 90% res
Helge corr lvl 50 rad/cold
Helge2 corr lvl 50 ice/rad
Techbothelge MM lvl 50 robo/dark
Helge Mauz def lvl 50 emp/ele
illuhelge troller lvl 50 illu/rad
Wiederbelebter helge nk lvl 50 bs/reg
Maennerschreack nightwidow lvl 44
Quantenjaeger ws lvl 3
i think demon/sonic would be a nice combo due to all the -resist (most of the demons attacks do around -20 to -30% resist) you could easily drop a baddy -70ish % resist between sonic stuff and demons stuff (and the mm attacks added in will further make it lower)
another thing to remember is that the ember demon has heals, he has an aoe heal that he spams and a single target heal he pops off on hurt demons (note he wont use it on the mm though)
that being said both thermal and sonic have their own ups and downs, and in the end it really comes down to personal preference
as i have a lvl 20 demon MM i now tested slotting +res in ember demon and it works
normally he grants me 5% sm/l res per ember shield and additional 10% sm/l res as ember shield owner (15% sm/l res)
after slotting 2 lvl 20 TO which enhance res with 10% and resummoning him
he granted me 16,5% sm/l res
paired with my other test this means we can hardcap our demons like tankers or brutes at 90% sm/l/fire res
Helge corr lvl 50 rad/cold
Helge2 corr lvl 50 ice/rad
Techbothelge MM lvl 50 robo/dark
Helge Mauz def lvl 50 emp/ele
illuhelge troller lvl 50 illu/rad
Wiederbelebter helge nk lvl 50 bs/reg
Maennerschreack nightwidow lvl 44
Quantenjaeger ws lvl 3
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HOLY cow! I need eight slots to accessorize my 2nd tier properly |
Originally Posted by vernichterhelge
as i have a lvl 20 demon MM i now tested slotting +res in ember demon and it works
normally he grants me 5% sm/l res per ember shield and additional 10% sm/l res as ember shield owner (15% sm/l res) after slotting 2 lvl 20 TO which enhance res with 10% and resummoning him he granted me 16,5% sm/l res paired with my other test this means we can hardcap our demons like tankers or brutes at 90% sm/l/fire res |
I hate to skimp on the damage on the second tier, but that thermal shield coupled with the sonic rings means ember won't need as much end to heal (but I think he will still spam like a 3 month veteran empath from WoW).
Hard capping pets at 90% means your mastemind shouldn't miss warmth from thermal so much. The medicine pool still appears to be a good idea.
Don't poo poo sonic dispersion too much. FFG and Dispersion bubble are key factors for masterminds to solo at higher levels against foes that mezz.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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I am skeptical about the comment that the ember shield does not ever heal the mastermind. I wish I had the combat logs. I have demon masterminds that solo, and on RARE occasions, (yes, I need to demorecord or it didn't happen |
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
<snip>
another thing to remember is that the ember demon has heals, he has an aoe heal that he spams and a single target heal he pops off on hurt demons (note he wont use it on the mm though) <SNip> |
) my mastermind is healed out of the clear blue sky, and I am fairly certain it's the ember demon. I do indeed support the concept that your mastermind cannot rely on it. The demons are geared to destroy what damaged you before they are inclined to directly remediate your damage.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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its not the ember shield that heals, he has another power which he spams which is aoe heal, but has a target cap of 7 (6 pets + the mm), i forget what the name of the power specifically is but i know its not ember shield since that is an auto power and applied all the time|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
I am skeptical about the comment that the ember shield does not ever heal the mastermind. I wish I had the combat logs. I have demon masterminds that solo, and on RARE occasions, (yes, I need to demorecord or it didn't happen
) my mastermind is healed out of the clear blue sky, and I am fairly certain it's the ember demon. I do indeed support the concept that your mastermind cannot rely on it. The demons are geared to destroy what damaged you before they are inclined to directly remediate your damage. |
the single target heal the ember demon has will not ever be used to heal the mm, but the mm can be healed by the aoe heal
Just making a friendly announcement to all you other MMs out there. Let me just do some napkin math here to explain what I'm seeing.
Demonling Base Resistance: 26.145%
Sonic Barrier (ED capped): 22.5%
Sonic Dispersion (ED capped): 16.875%
Ember Shield (ED capped): 15%
Total: 80.52% resistance to S/L
These numbers are for Demonling Smashing and Lethal resistance. We have testing to confirm that pet resistance caps at 90%, so add in just one pet unique IO and your Demonlings will hit the 90% hard cap. Gargoyles start with even higher base resistance, and the Demon Prince has the same resistance.
I wouldn't think that bodyguard mode is needed with pets that hardy, but if it was, let's look at some potential self resistance numbers.
Sonic Dispersion (ED capped): 16.875%
Charged Armor (ED capped): 41.25%
Ember Shield: 15%
Just that much is 73.125% resistance, just shy of the hard cap. Now, considering bodyguard mode as an additional 75% resistance, you have a total effective resistance of 93.4%.
But wait! There's more! Let's look at the other side of the resistance offerings here.
Sonic Siphon: -22.5%
Disruption Field: -22.5% (Because MMs can anchor this on a henchman)
Mastermind Whip Attacks: -18.75%
Hellfire Demonling Attacks: -30%
Hellfire Gargoyle Attacks: -40%
If I total that up right, I'm looking at an easily sustainable -133.75% resistance. I'm also assuming that the MM and each hellfire demon can only sustain two stacks of -resistance. The durations imply it's possible, which would be a potential total of -178.125% resistance. None of this accounts for the purple patch, as I'm not even sure how that affects henchmen.
And the best part of it all? I have the perfect concept waiting. I actually needed Sonic Resonance to make my concept work. I just didn't know it until they announced the proliferation.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.