City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Pain Domination or Empathy?

Amy_Amp

By Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2011-07-29 05:27 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auroxis View Post
Empaths can have powerful debuffs through Sonic Blast(and Lore pets to demolish AV's) to close the gap, and will steamroll everything else quite fast due to their fast recharging crash-less nukes.
Since when does being an Emp mean your nuke is crash-less?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by hemmingway3 View Post
Since when does being an Emp mean your nuke is crash-less?
When a post refers to an Empath-only team, it does.

Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auroxis View Post
When a post refers to an Empath-only team, it does.
Considering nukes still drain 100% of your End, they are not crash-less unless you get a lucky Performance Shifter proc, which is unrelated to being an Emp. Granted, you will recover the end at a fast rate, but you will still toggle drop, which is the biggest problem with nukes IMO.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by hemmingway3 View Post
Considering nukes still drain 100% of your End, they are not crash-less unless you get a lucky Performance Shifter proc, which is unrelated to being an Emp. Granted, you will recover the end at a fast rate, but you will still toggle drop, which is the biggest problem with nukes IMO.
I thought not being able to attack for 20 seconds is the biggest problem. You don't need your toggles to stay alive with a team full of empaths, and it doesn't take that long to re-toggle a couple leadership powers and an APP shield(which usually won't all go down in my experience).

Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by hemmingway3 View Post
Considering nukes still drain 100% of your End, they are not crash-less unless you get a lucky Performance Shifter proc, which is unrelated to being an Emp. Granted, you will recover the end at a fast rate, but you will still toggle drop, which is the biggest problem with nukes IMO.
Considering it is an all Emp team, toggle dropping is a non issue. If stacked Forts are maintained, everyone is going to be softcapped without Maneuvers and their tohit will be golden without Tactics. The only thing missing will be Assault but they'll still have decent +dmg from Fort, too. In reality, maintaining 2-3 stacked Fort on everyone makes the Leadership pool redundant with the exception of Assault. So there's 2 toggles you can knock out altogether when you get toggle dropped.

Between AB and RA, they'd have enough to overcome the -recovery, all the nuker would have to do is pop a blue and carry on. Additionally, they'd be able to nuke more often because of perma AB.

Using nukes on the Pain team would be a bit more detrimental because they won't be carrying as much defense/recovery. The main thing going for them is +dmg and capped resists.

SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)

 

Posted

And since the discussion has started adding in attack sets and taking power pools into account... all of them go Dark Mastery.

Emp/x/Dark or x/Pain/Dark. Both teams would be safe enough to rush into the middle of spawns and saturated Soul Drain would be enough to damage cap either combination in peak conditions. Not to mention 8 stacks of OG running and keeping everything stunned.

Just wanted to add another layer of delicious on top of these two cakes made of ridiculous.

SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infini View Post
And since the discussion has started adding in attack sets and taking power pools into account... all of them go Dark Mastery.

Emp/x/Dark or x/Pain/Dark. Both teams would be safe enough to rush into the middle of spawns and saturated Soul Drain would be enough to damage cap either combination in peak conditions. Not to mention 8 stacks of OG running and keeping everything stunned.

Just wanted to add another layer of delicious on top of these two cakes made of ridiculous.
I will probably never be able to play on such a ridiculous, delicious team, but it's a wonderful fantasy.

 

Posted

As a small oddity, you can nuke, have the crash, and if a +recovery tick happens before the power activation pulses you'll still keep your toggles. I've done it on Power Surge and Overload crashes, with Blizzard on a Cold/Ice Defender who was at the +recovery cap due to Heat Loss, and a variety of other times - and that's just a "not lose any toggles" crash. It's actually fairly likely that you won't have more than one or two toggles drop (if any do) with AB and/or stacked RA.

It's also why you'll see times where your endurance crashes and you keep some toggles but not all of them.

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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

Im playing a Dark/Pain Corr at the moment.

My only main issue with Pain so far is Enforced Moral being almost a waste.

I know what it does. Many people don't however. They think it's clear mind, and they get frustrated when I can't make a "Hold" go away.

Based on the fact that it's not protection, but resistance and adds other nice bonuses I would personally rather have clear mind. Considdering the power does not last long enough to add any form of considderable resistance, and it only hits one person at a time and it should be stacked.

I could stack it all day and see very little benefit, and since Im mashing it, Im not mashing something else more usefull.

If it were a group buff like a thermal shield or something then maybe it would be benificial...but otherwise It' more trouble than it's worth.

 

Posted

Maybe you're thinking about PvP.... EM does in fact give hold protection in PvE.

 

Posted

I agree with the fact that it (CM and Enforced Morale) should be AoE and have a longer duration.

"PvP Messiah"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madadh View Post
I will probably never be able to play on such a ridiculous, delicious team, but it's a wonderful fantasy.
Repeat Offenders network of SGs ran an all Empathy SG called the Green Machines. I poked around on their forum and nobody has posted this year for that particular SG, so I don't know how much if at all it's still going. I don't know of an all /pain VG/SG.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard View Post
I'd suggest taking a long look at Pain Dom in Mids to see what it brings to the table later in the game and compare that to what Empathy can, and then remember that /Pain will NEVER be a defender primary.
Before GR, Pain was the villainous version of Empathy, as Empathy itself wasn't villainous in theme. With Freedom allowing all basic AT's to start on either side, and Synapse saying that they'll eventually proliferate everything they can, I wouldn't be so certain on it never being a Defender primary. Sure, it won't be anytime soon, but with newer sets being created pre-proliferated, 'Fenders have what left? Poison and Pain, in that order, I expect.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infini View Post
Considering it is an all Emp team, toggle dropping is a non issue. If stacked Forts are maintained, everyone is going to be softcapped without Maneuvers and their tohit will be golden without Tactics. The only thing missing will be Assault but they'll still have decent +dmg from Fort, too. In reality, maintaining 2-3 stacked Fort on everyone makes the Leadership pool redundant with the exception of Assault. So there's 2 toggles you can knock out altogether when you get toggle dropped.

Between AB and RA, they'd have enough to overcome the -recovery, all the nuker would have to do is pop a blue and carry on. Additionally, they'd be able to nuke more often because of perma AB.

Using nukes on the Pain team would be a bit more detrimental because they won't be carrying as much defense/recovery. The main thing going for them is +dmg and capped resists.
Pain and Emp both offer the same +recovery (Edit: just looked it up and the recovery from Pain is actually 4x the recovery from Emp but either way, it doesn't matter).
The difference is Pain is single target and perma-able and Emp is aoe but not perma-able. If you are talking a team full of Pain V a team full of Emps, it doesn't matter, everyone in either team will be at max recovery permanently. It would be easier on pain though just designating one person each had to keep their buffs on permanently when it recharged Vs trying to stagger buffs from the Emp to make sure they don't run out.

The defense thing is a bit of a non issue, with 8 sets of Manouevers running and some defense from pool powers/IO, everyone on an all emp team and an all pain team are going to have capped defenses. Defense is extremely easy in this game to get but Resistance isn't. The all Pain team will be capped on resists and defense while the all Emp team will only be capped on Defense.
A team of Emps will never be as good as a team of Pains. Their mitigation is worse, their healing is worse, their damage is worse and they are harder to play.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by hemmingway3 View Post
Maybe you're thinking about PvP.... EM does in fact give hold protection in PvE.
Yes. The actual descriptions says it does some damage, but frees an ally from Hold, Disorient, Imobalize, etc, while adding +res to those effects. These effects stack along with +damage, +Recharge rate increase and +perception.

What I am saying is the opposite.

The later part of the power...+res to status effects. +damage, +Recharge rate increase and +perception seem to stack breifly.

However since on of my mains is a faithful Empath who uses clear mind often, I have noticed the primary effect, Which is to "Free the ally" does not seem to work like clear mind.

We were fighting Family Consierge with singularities. Im firing this off a lot. When it works it turns the hold and the imob into a slow (Which is normal) as with web grenades etc.

What I am saying is that Im not able to bust the actual hold. My friends are still held even if I stack EM, and use it when they first get held. Soemthing is wrong here.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biscuits_EU View Post
Before GR, Pain was the villainous version of Empathy, as Empathy itself wasn't villainous in theme. With Freedom allowing all basic AT's to start on either side, and Synapse saying that they'll eventually proliferate everything they can, I wouldn't be so certain on it never being a Defender primary. Sure, it won't be anytime soon, but with newer sets being created pre-proliferated, 'Fenders have what left? Poison and Pain, in that order, I expect.
I don't recall Synapse being the one to say they want to proliferate everything they could. It was Posi. Some sets won't be done, hence the "everything that can" versus simply saying "everything," as Pain was specifically made because corrs weren't going to get Empathy due to theme. Defenders rather likely will never get Pain due to causing teammates pain to buff yourself isn't very defender like.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
Pain and Emp both offer the same +recovery (Edit: just looked it up and the recovery from Pain is actually 4x the recovery from Emp but either way, it doesn't matter).
The difference is Pain is single target and perma-able and Emp is aoe but not perma-able. If you are talking a team full of Pain V a team full of Emps, it doesn't matter, everyone in either team will be at max recovery permanently. It would be easier on pain though just designating one person each had to keep their buffs on permanently when it recharged Vs trying to stagger buffs from the Emp to make sure they don't run out.

The defense thing is a bit of a non issue, with 8 sets of Manouevers running and some defense from pool powers/IO, everyone on an all emp team and an all pain team are going to have capped defenses. Defense is extremely easy in this game to get but Resistance isn't. The all Pain team will be capped on resists and defense while the all Emp team will only be capped on Defense.
A team of Emps will never be as good as a team of Pains. Their mitigation is worse, their healing is worse, their damage is worse and they are harder to play.
See: Adrenalin Boost

Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
Pain and Emp both offer the same +recovery (Edit: just looked it up and the recovery from Pain is actually 4x the recovery from Emp but either way, it doesn't matter).
The difference is Pain is single target and perma-able and Emp is aoe but not perma-able. If you are talking a team full of Pain V a team full of Emps, it doesn't matter, everyone in either team will be at max recovery permanently. It would be easier on pain though just designating one person each had to keep their buffs on permanently when it recharged Vs trying to stagger buffs from the Emp to make sure they don't run out.

The defense thing is a bit of a non issue, with 8 sets of Manouevers running and some defense from pool powers/IO, everyone on an all emp team and an all pain team are going to have capped defenses. Defense is extremely easy in this game to get but Resistance isn't. The all Pain team will be capped on resists and defense while the all Emp team will only be capped on Defense.
A team of Emps will never be as good as a team of Pains. Their mitigation is worse, their healing is worse, their damage is worse and they are harder to play.
Painbringer and Adrenaline Boost are what you should be comparing, both of which can be made perma. The RA's (+Regen/+Recovery) are an Emp only AoE thing. AB also gives a 100% Rech buff while Painbringer gives a dmg buff (again...everyone having perma AB on everyone....lots of crazy recharge and damage). The Res cap wouldn't be doing all that much for the Pains when the Emps have everyone softcapped to every damage type from Fort, while also having capped perma Regen from AB and RA's.

I don't think the gap would be as big as you're making it out to be. In fact, the only reason I see pain going ahead would be due to the AoE Debuffs/Scourge.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
Yes. The actual descriptions says it does some damage, but frees an ally from Hold, Disorient, Imobalize, etc, while adding +res to those effects. These effects stack along with +damage, +Recharge rate increase and +perception.

What I am saying is the opposite.

The later part of the power...+res to status effects. +damage, +Recharge rate increase and +perception seem to stack breifly.

However since on of my mains is a faithful Empath who uses clear mind often, I have noticed the primary effect, Which is to "Free the ally" does not seem to work like clear mind.

We were fighting Family Consierge with singularities. Im firing this off a lot. When it works it turns the hold and the imob into a slow (Which is normal) as with web grenades etc.

What I am saying is that Im not able to bust the actual hold. My friends are still held even if I stack EM, and use it when they first get held. Soemthing is wrong here.


I tested this on a second account before I made that post.. The target of the buff went from 0 Hold protection to 10 Hold protection. I don't see how that is not working as it should.
EDIT: This looks pretty convincing to me:


I also tested this in RWZ with another pain corr.. EM does free you from holds and stuns.

 

Posted

I feel Pain Domination's design is more for Mastermind IMO. The aoe healing and world of pain aoe buff helps 6 pets more than helping Corruptor himself. And also, Villains at that time already have SoA providing excellent team defense. What they needed more is aoe resistance buff which is what Pain Domination offers.

I have a lvl 50 Sonic/Pain Corr and a lvl 50 Necro/Pain. I like Necro/Pain's performance better because I sometimes get into "healing lock" on my Corr if the team keeps taking serious damage and I am locked by needing to heal all the time. However, if the team has good +defense, the +resistance is more welcome as World of Pain gives +resistance to all including psionic. The pbaoe resistance debuff is also useful.

Oh, I love it when somebody dies and I rez with Pain. I get faster endurance recovery and recharge. :P

However, Fortitude is one great buff before people have all the set bonuses.

I guess people should compare Controller Empathy VS Corr Pain Domination as the values should be very similar. Defender's version is higher.

What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
Pain and Emp both offer the same +recovery (Edit: just looked it up and the recovery from Pain is actually 4x the recovery from Emp but either way, it doesn't matter).
The difference is Pain is single target and perma-able and Emp is aoe but not perma-able. If you are talking a team full of Pain V a team full of Emps, it doesn't matter, everyone in either team will be at max recovery permanently. It would be easier on pain though just designating one person each had to keep their buffs on permanently when it recharged Vs trying to stagger buffs from the Emp to make sure they don't run out.

The defense thing is a bit of a non issue, with 8 sets of Manouevers running and some defense from pool powers/IO, everyone on an all emp team and an all pain team are going to have capped defenses. Defense is extremely easy in this game to get but Resistance isn't. The all Pain team will be capped on resists and defense while the all Emp team will only be capped on Defense.
A team of Emps will never be as good as a team of Pains. Their mitigation is worse, their healing is worse, their damage is worse and they are harder to play.
Lets see...

While it is true that Pains would be able to run at defense caps, it would be dependent on the individual Corr to determine which types/positions to be softcapped to. Additionally, all the team members would have to get those powers or sets to get that extra defense. Corr Maneuvers only offers ~4% defense with 56% slotting (3 SOs) and with 8 you're looking at 32%. EPP shields would easily push s/l defense to the softcap and getting some set bonuses would push up the range defense.

BUT - the Emps don't have to worry about any of this. They don't even need Maneuvers with well slotted Fortitudes stacking everywhere and they certainly won't need shields or set bonuses to get that defense (which, btw, is defense to EVERYTHING typed and positional). What does this mean? Every player on the Emp team can slot their builds for +hp/recharge/dmg. Think about it. An Emp with ~100% global recharge + 70% from hasten + another 100% from AB from one of their teammates. 270% recharge ALL THE TIME. The Pains would never be able to even touch that because they'll be busy filling in defense holes.

From a def/res standpoint, the only true advantage Pains have is capped toxic resistance. Offensively they have the advantages of -def/res to stack on mobs and Scourge.

Suppose that it should be mentioned that slows will severely hinder the Pains while the Emps have that extra 100% buffer, too.

SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infini View Post
Lets see...

While it is true that Pains would be able to run at defense caps, it would be dependent on the individual Corr to determine which types/positions to be softcapped to. Additionally, all the team members would have to get those powers or sets to get that extra defense. Corr Maneuvers only offers ~4% defense with 56% slotting (3 SOs) and with 8 you're looking at 32%. EPP shields would easily push s/l defense to the softcap and getting some set bonuses would push up the range defense.

BUT - the Emps don't have to worry about any of this. They don't even need Maneuvers with well slotted Fortitudes stacking everywhere and they certainly won't need shields or set bonuses to get that defense (which, btw, is defense to EVERYTHING typed and positional). What does this mean? Every player on the Emp team can slot their builds for +hp/recharge/dmg. Think about it. An Emp with ~100% global recharge + 70% from hasten + another 100% from AB from one of their teammates. 270% recharge ALL THE TIME. The Pains would never be able to even touch that because they'll be busy filling in defense holes.

From a def/res standpoint, the only true advantage Pains have is capped toxic resistance. Offensively they have the advantages of -def/res to stack on mobs and Scourge.

Suppose that it should be mentioned that slows will severely hinder the Pains while the Emps have that extra 100% buffer, too.
Actually 8 stacks of manouevers plus Weave and any two of Combat Jumping, Hover and Stealth will get them all to the cap without any IO bonuses. I can only speak for myself here but I would proabby be taking all of the above for the benefits of LotG anyway.

with absolute ease both are going to be at the soft cap with defense.

the difference is the Emp team has more recharge Vs the Pain team's resist cap, better heals and better damage. Consider both teams will already have a high level of recharge to perma their T9s, the Pain comes off ahead in a massive way due to the diminishing returns of +recharge.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
Actually 8 stacks of manouevers plus Weave and any two of Combat Jumping, Hover and Stealth will get them all to the cap without any IO bonuses.
So you're saying you have to take those powers to do it... that's exactly what I was pointing out.

Pains' PP powers to take: Hasten, at least Maneuvers/Assault, Boxing/Tough/Weave, and CJ/Hover/Stealth. That's 8 powers across 6 different pools (I'm taking into account that you only need 2 of the CJ/Hover/Stealth combo).

Looks like you'll have to sacrifice something for defense if you're not going to use set bonuses. Probably Hasten, which could lead to not being able to have perma Painbringer. But I'll just use set bonuses, you say? Well, good sir, you're then sacrificing potential for other beneficial bonuses/procs while you go for defense bonuses.

Emps' PP powers to take: Hasten and Assault. Everything else is gravy or LotG mules.

I am in no way trying to claim one team would be better than the other. They both would be very good and I've even said that the Pains would pull ahead in certain circumstances while the Emps would be pretty much consistent throughout.

SG: Guadians of Paragon - VG: Paragon's Darkness
The Usual Suspects: Fimboolvetr (Icer Tank), Tsukiyomi (Mind/Psi/Ice Dom), Smiting Dragon (Dm/Sr Scrap), Widow Mortis (NW)
Up and Comers: Ameterasu (Km/Reg Scrap), Arrhymian (Elec/Nin Stalk), TDMKII (Bot/Traps MM)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant2005 View Post
[...]Consider both teams will already have a high level of recharge to perma their T9s, the Pain comes off ahead in a massive way due to the diminishing returns of +recharge.
Actually, no. The Emp team doesn't need global recharge because AB gives you +100% recharge.

With just the recharge boost and 3 recharge SOs in AB it will recharge in about 102 seconds. Hasten in the same circumstances is only a few seconds from perma and would make AB perma.

It's possible that an all-Pain team might be better (whatever that means) with high end builds but I doubt it.

IMO Pain is good, but Empathy is better. Unfortunate, but there it is.

Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silas View Post
Actually, no. The Emp team doesn't need global recharge because AB gives you +100% recharge.

With just the recharge boost and 3 recharge SOs in AB it will recharge in about 102 seconds. Hasten in the same circumstances is only a few seconds from perma and would make AB perma.

It's possible that an all-Pain team might be better (whatever that means) with high end builds but I doubt it.

IMO Pain is good, but Empathy is better. Unfortunate, but there it is.
Every character out there slots of recharge or defense or any combination thereof. Nothing else is hugely effective, the Emp needs to slot for neither and gets little returns on both.
An Emp in SOs in an all Emp team is only marginally weaker than a fully IOd team.
I'd admit in those situations Emp is better but when IOs and set bonuses are taken into account, the all Emp team is left in the dust by a significant margin.
An insignificant amount of recharge due to diminishing returns loses to damage, debuffs, heals and resists every time. It is lunacy to suggest otherwise.

Emps are a nice cheap alternative, that is undeniable but with a few dollars behind each team and the Emps look pretty ordinary by comparison.