Feeling lost
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-07-25 22:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Sailboat, this sounds FANTASTIC. I would love to roll hardcore, that sounds perfect. Thanks for the info
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Here's another thought to add to the suggestions to play lowbies, or new server, or SO-only. Some of us play some of our characters "hardcore," where any defeat (or in my SG's specific in our case, any defeat after attaining level 10) means the character "dies" and is deleted or retired. ANY defeat, even if it's not your fault (log in amid a zombie invasion, giant monster trained onto you at PI, you accidentally hit self destruct, etc.).
This does not lend itself to rapid leveling -- we generally play +0 or +1 normal door missions -- and it definitely doesn't encourage highly-polished builds with expensive IOs. What it does bring to our gaming experience is a renewed interests in our teammates and our teamwork, a welcome re-emphasis on defense and survival powers from the AOE-offense-heavy standard game, a sense of accomplishment, the occasional burst of stark terror, and, of course, the all-too-frequent opportunity to make new alts. :P It's certainly not for everybody. But if your interest is piqued, check out the Iron Eagles channel (Justice server) or see our thread in Player Events. |
Stay away from Curing Wands.
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Of course not. |
Originally Posted by Sailboat
I admit I don't know Dominators very well, but is a Plant/Psi Dom really the ultimate character?
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A Broadsword/Dark Armor scrapper is the ultimate character.
That's kind of the point. If you ask 100 different people what the best AT and power set in the game are, you are likely going to get at 100 different responses.
For the OP, the ultimate character is a Plant/Psi dominator, while I have never gotten a dominator of any kind past level 26.
For ME, the ultimate character is a Broadsword/Dark Armor scrapper.
For YOU, the ultimate character is almost guaranteed to be neither of those things.
And for anyone else it's the same, the ultimate character is whichever character fits how they enjoy playing the game the best. Hell, I like my BS/DA scrapper so much it will be the first time I've ever repeated power sets (I'm rolling the same combo as a brute when Broadsword is available to brutes).
The only thing I think the OP is doing "wrong" is he's comparing low level characters to one that is level 50 and IO'd out the wazoo, and presumably is a perma-dom. Of course the low level character is going to feel weak compared to the one you've dumped billions into.
I look at how awesome THIS character is NOW, instead of playing him and thinking about how much more awesome my other one is
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I totally spend HOURS min/maxing my costumes. 
Why?
Because if it don't look good, it don't play good. 
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You remind me of incidents in the past with others who are like that. They would sit there in team chat and complain about their characters getting covered up in original ice shields from a defender and so on.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
I totally spend HOURS min/maxing my costumes.
Why? Because if it don't look good, it don't play good. |
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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To this day, Stone Armor is right out for me. |
Originally Posted by JayboH
You remind me of incidents in the past with others who are like that. They would sit there in team chat and complain about their characters getting covered up in original ice shields from a defender and so on.
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I may be playing a tooled-up death machine that is min-maxed within an inch of implosion...but it'll also look snazzy.
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They really get quite a bit stronger. I would recommend sticking it out. I realize you already knew this already and were just empathizing with the OP.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
For the OP, the ultimate character is a Plant/Psi dominator, while I have never gotten a dominator of any kind past level 26.
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To the OP, I think you should focus on the IDEA of the character. If the idea/concept is cool, pretty much everything else is irrelevant. I think all of us play these games at least partially because we are just entranced with superheroes and/or the idea of having superpowers. So just come up with some novel take on things that you personally are excited about. If you are excited about the concept, you can weather the inevitable buff/nerf cycles because you like the CHARACTER not the MECHANICS of the character.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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First off, I only have three 50s - Emp/PB def, BS/SD scrap, and FA/DM tank.|
Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
How do you all find enjoyment in your "lesser" heroes? How do you escape that niggling feeling that you could be killing/supporting/tanking/etc better with one of your mains?
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To be honest, I used to hate playing lowbies after I 50'd my BS/SD scrapper. I love playing her, and it seemed like nothing could compare. She could do pretty much anything, in my mind. New toons, especially non-melee toons, weren't even in the same league, and I kept getting frustrated.
Fast-forward about a year and a half. This summer, I've been talking to my uncle (who is ALWAYS trying new things) about different builds. Mix that with the fact that I've learned new things from these forums (never paid any attention to them before), and my mindset completely changed. For example, I used to hate Dark Armor and Super Reflexes, writing them off as terrible sets. However, after looking at guides and messing in Mids', they are actually pretty good. (I actually had to make one of each, just to try it myself.) I come up with something new to try every week or so, so I have a lot of 20-ish toons, but I enjoy them all as much as my 50 scrapper. And actually, all of my 50s spend more time collecting dust than my lowbies do... well, minus the tank. He's my cash cow.
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Originally Posted by Patteroast
I'm not sure if there's a way to simply 'turn off' or get over your desire to play the 'best' character, because in comparison, I don't think I could ever enjoy the playstyle you describe...
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For the OP, I have several suggestions for you.
1) Someone beat me to this, so I'll just say, try gaming, "Hardcore."
2) I tend to play a lot as if I'm the general and the alt I'm playing is my 'army.' Real generals can't often pick their troops, but the best generals get the most out of them. Often times, the truly epic generals find whole new ways to fight that emphasizes the their 'lesser' troops, and at the same times make the former great troops seem like relics. I certainly can't take sole credit, but I was trying to build squishies to be tough ages ago. People told me that that was silly to try to pile on as much def as I could to a def, I should focus on recharge first and foremost. Why would a rad/rad need def after all? Times change. Take a weak set and explore what you can do with it. Find a combo or IO that may not have been used in that way before. If you don't plug away at it, you'll not find the new next knack, and you'll just start building what someone else discovered first. Sure, you'll try a ton of duds, but, you'll know what the most that can be eeked out of a bum set is, and although it might not still measure up to your gold standard, it is a blast when you play with a bunch of players all playing FoTM builds, and things go south, and your 'weak' combo saves the team from a team wipe.
3) Or, you can take your fav alt. You prolly know it inside and out. Find the enemy that causes you the most problems, crank the dif and tackle them. Or create a custom enemy in AE just designed to slag your own uber alt. You should be able to exploit your own weaknesses such that you can find a way to defeat your best alt. Then, design a new, different alt that can trash, what just trashed your main.
4) There is always PVP. It's a whole different ballgame.
5) Just thought of this too, sorta as an offshoot to the PVP idea. I've never tried the gladiators, and always thought that looked potentially interesting.
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Yep, I'm aware of it. |
Originally Posted by _Ail_
They really get quite a bit stronger. I would recommend sticking it out. I realize you already knew this already and were just empathizing with the OP.
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I know how powerful Dominators get later on, they just don't suit my preferred playstyle very well. I have trouble getting into Controllers and Masterminds too.
I'm very much an offensively oriented, primarily melee player. My 50s are 2 scrappers, a brute, 2 blasters, and my sole high level defender is a Rad/Sonic.
One of the things I enjoy doing the most is big-game hunting. Taking down AVs and GMs while solo or with a small group just screams "comic book action" to me.
To each his own. I can play my offensive, in-your-face characters, and someone who enjoys controllery support types can have them too, in the same game.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I look at any specialist abilities they contribute to my roster as a whole, reroll them into better powersets, or delete them.|
Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
How do you all find enjoyment in your "lesser" heroes? How do you escape that niggling feeling that you could be killing/supporting/tanking/etc better with one of your mains? I guess I just want to figure out another way to look at playing this game so that I can be perfectly happy just playing an interesting powerset (like /poison or dual blades) rather than the most efficient or powerful one.
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I have a few characters that still exist only because they're experts in the things that my heavily minmaxed generalist builds don't specialize in. You won't find an Inv/DB tanker anywhere near the top of the performance scale. But I have one sitting around for the days I need to, say, drag AM around on Keyes; she now has enough damage to also double as a high-survivability scrapper. Similarly, even though the best blasters are outclassed in both defensive and offensive power by the best melee characters, I have a Fire/Fire blaster I'm keeping just in case future content needs ranged DPS above and beyond what the debuff ATs can manage. (I'm also considering rerolling her into Fire/MM.)
Sometimes I reroll characters into better powersets. My Mind/Emp got rerolled as Ill/Emp; not only did this vastly increase her control ability, she got much better damage and survivability out of the deal too. As part of this change she got an improved concept that fits her name (Lady Divine) and costume better. Previously she was some weird hybrid of Angel and Prof. X, now she's a photokinetic that fights with her army of light and hurls light blasts, complete with glowy light aura from APP Temp Invuln. Minmaxing improves concepts, it's true.
In general, though, I don't feel the need to make dozens of characters; I'm happy just playing a few well-crafted ones.
Well don't... I don't go around feeling people...
In general terms I don't min/max, I build the best I can with the resources available but seldom really go for broke with getting the best build... partly as I have so many characters and partly as I don't enjoy spending hours doing it... Let me play...
But the idea that some of my 'heroes' are less powerful than others? Isn't that always the way? Especially within a single AT some sets are just not as good as others. It's how you play them that counts.
I am a little amazed no-one has suggested PVP.
That is the end game of all Min-Maxers in all MMos. You imn max to the point that no content is a challenge anymore so you either retire or you face the only thing that is still a challenge: Other min-maxers.
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It probably would have been brought up if PvP weren't a shadow of it's former self. |
Originally Posted by Giant2005
I am a little amazed no-one has suggested PVP.
That is the end game of all Min-Maxers in all MMos. You imn max to the point that no content is a challenge anymore so you either retire or you face the only thing that is still a challenge: Other min-maxers. |
I still do it occasionally, but it's not nearly as fun as it used to be.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I have a huge stable of 50's and don't obsess that much over playing one that's "better" than another. In reality, "better" usually equals "easier," not "more uber." In other words, if it only takes 2-3 buttons to wipe out a +4/X8 spawn, you aren't really trying that hard to challenge yourself. So I'll swap over to a different toon that I know is more fragile or takes more precise positioning to accomplish a kill. Heck, I've even got level 50's that have ZERO enhancements slotted. Seriously....try it some time for a huge challenge.
If you can only get into min/max, it simply means you don't like a challenge. That's ok, its your subscription fee, play how you want. But in such a simple game universe like COH where everything really boils down to button mashing, why would you insist on the easiest toon builds to play?
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I did in suggestion #4 of my post.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
I am a little amazed no-one has suggested PVP.
That is the end game of all Min-Maxers in all MMos. You imn max to the point that no content is a challenge anymore so you either retire or you face the only thing that is still a challenge: Other min-maxers. |
Heck, I even mentioned the gladiators in point #5.
Make a character that can do something none of your "maxed" characters could do. So maybe it doesn't kill as fast as X character, but it can do Y--which is something X could never do.
For a more specific example--A Warshade. You get your recharge high enough, you have damage resist rivaling a tank, 3 permanent pets that blast like mini blasters, and you can shapeshift. Lots of fun
Or, an elec/X controller. Floor your enemies blue bars and watch them sit there unable to do anything. Could be amusing.
Or, a Crab spider. You're like a mastermind tank-mage. Good times.
Characters built around a certain theme with a good name are always more fun to play than ones built specifically because they have a good powerset combo (at least, to me they are). Try making a thematic character that has an interesting powerset you haven't played before.
Or, take a break for a while. Everyone needs one now and then.
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Having good powerset combinations does nothing to prevent a character from having a coherent theme and good name. On the contrary, minmaxing helps you avoid the unimaginative, unoriginal ideas that are prevalent among concept characters. How would you explain a Rad/Sonic defender's powers? How does someone with control over kinetic energy summon fire imps? Why would someone fight with a shield if they had fire powers? Trying to find answers to these questions provokes original thought and trains your imagination.|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Characters built around a certain theme with a good name are always more fun to play than ones built specifically because they have a good powerset combo (at least, to me they are).
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P.S. Here's my answer to the last question:
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And if you notice, I didn't say that was the case. I merely said that theme > pure numbers (for me). If you can make a theme work for one of those builds, sure, whatever, good on you. I was simply trying to offer suggestions.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Having good powerset combinations does nothing to prevent a character from having a coherent theme and good name. On the contrary, minmaxing helps you avoid the unimaginative, unoriginal ideas that are prevalent among concept characters.
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For what it's worth, my motto has always been (in regards to powersets/themes); "If you can't explain it, you aren't trying hard enough."
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Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Having good powerset combinations does nothing to prevent a character from having a coherent theme and good name. On the contrary, minmaxing helps you avoid the unimaginative, unoriginal ideas that are prevalent among concept characters. How would you explain a Rad/Sonic defender's powers? How does someone with control over kinetic energy summon fire imps? Why would someone fight with a shield if they had fire powers? Trying to find answers to these questions provokes original thought and trains your imagination.*snip*
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While I agree that there is nothing preventing *any* powerset sombo from having a coherant theme, I totally disagree with the section I bolded. Prioritizing numbers above any other consideration doesn't encourage creativity of concept. In fact, from a purely numeric point of view, it probably encourages one to do exactly what everyone else has discovered works.
If 2 people both happen to be a little on the uncreative side, and one decides to prioritize pure numbers, and the other tries to come up with a cool concept, the first will make a build that varies little from a posted build from a proven power combo, and the 2nd will come up with a natural pairing (for example matching fire with fire anything) and the alt will have a very cliche back story.
If two highly creative people, both interested in concept, but one also focused on min-maxing, the other only focused on story create new alts, the min-maxer with have a proven power combo, or a closely related pair of powers, and a great backstory and concept, and costume. The other player will have who knows what possible power combo, and a great story, concept, etc.
It is in the mid ground is where the concept focused player will produce more imaginative concepts and stories. Of course, in the mid ground, the min-maxer on average will have more creative builds that out-perform the concept first person, in general. And this is entirely because of where they focus their priorities. I'm not making any value judgements on either style of play, but to say that someone whose #1 priority is performance over concept will on average have better concepts that someone whose #1 priorities is concept over performance should be prima facie wrong.
That you have a highly optimized build and a great concept and back-story doesn't prove that highly optimized builds lead to better concepts, it proves you're more creative than most and care about both aspects.
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This.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Here's another thought to add to the suggestions to play lowbies, or new server, or SO-only. Some of us play some of our characters "hardcore," where any defeat (or in my SG's specific in our case, any defeat after attaining level 10) means the character "dies" and is deleted or retired. ANY defeat, even if it's not your fault (log in amid a zombie invasion, giant monster trained onto you at PI, you accidentally hit self destruct, etc.).
This does not lend itself to rapid leveling -- we generally play +0 or +1 normal door missions -- and it definitely doesn't encourage highly-polished builds with expensive IOs. What it does bring to our gaming experience is a renewed interests in our teammates and our teamwork, a welcome re-emphasis on defense and survival powers from the AOE-offense-heavy standard game, a sense of accomplishment, the occasional burst of stark terror, and, of course, the all-too-frequent opportunity to make new alts. :P It's certainly not for everybody. But if your interest is piqued, check out the Iron Eagles channel (Justice server) or see our thread in Player Events. |
I played DDO the same way, once regular game content became boring/unchallenging. As a habitual min/maxer, I created what I thought might be the most solo survivable character combo, then started from level 1, accepting no gifts of cash/gear from any other source (not even my own alts). I teamed with no one, while playing that character. If the character died, I rerolled and started over (the only exception to that rule was if I had a real life computer/ISP failure that caused my death). After many, many, deaths/rerolls, I made it to 20th and retired that character. The sheer difficulty in succeeding in 'hardcore' play let me relax and enjoy my other characters in regular play, to the point where I could enjoy playing NON min/maxed characters just as much. In effect, the hardcore play style let me get my 'fix' for a min/max challenge, which removed the urge to min/max everything, all the time.
I also met some of the most interesting players along the way, who felt the same way about the 'hardcore' play style. It was refreshing, after all of the grinding and fine tuning to make my characters the best they could possibly be. I'm still a min/maxer, but it doesn't drive my play style nearly as much as it used to.
Teamsaver (Earth/Rad controller) and his trusty hench-boulder, Rocky
RezQ (Emp/Dark defender) member of Paragon City Search & Rescue
iTeam (Robotics/FF mastermind) with apologies to fans of "The A-Team"
Globally, I'm @Teamsaver, on the Infinity server
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I'm not more creative or intelligent than average. If I have good concepts, it's because minmaxing concerns forced me off the beaten path and made me consider unusual and novel ideas. If my ideas are interesting at all it's because I trained my imagination by making it work, hard, rather than caving in everytime it made a demand. Otherwise I would have the usual stableful of Inv/SS tanks, Mind/emp controllers and Fire/fire blasters. Completely thematic, lame and boring. (I actually do have the last two, holdovers from before I started playing FotM builds exclusively - more evidence that minmaxing improves concepts.) |
Originally Posted by Madadh
That you have a highly optimized build and a great concept and back-story doesn't prove that highly optimized builds lead to better concepts, it proves you're more creative than most and care about both aspects.
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If you choose to invest in good concepts, powergaming not only doesn't get in the way, it can actually help because it points you in a direction so different from the obvious one as far as concepts go.
And minmaxing isn't doing "exactly what everyone else has discovered works". Minmaxing is just minimizing disadvantages, maximizing advantages, and that takes experience, objectivity, and good judgment to weigh relative pros and cons (especially where they can't be easily quantified). Some powersets/ATs are demonstrably better than most, but there's still lots of room for creativity. The evidence lies in the fact that no two high-end builds are identical.
To the OP, that's what alts are for. I have a manhole cover, pipe wrench tank that makes me feel overpowered but I can't play it all the time. I have a Demons/Thermal mastermind that doesn't feel overpowered, but now at level 50 with all the powers available and solving the endurance issues with cardiac alpha slotting, the character is a BEAST. The one click per buff AoE style didn't hurt the progression one bit either.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Huh. I actually have sort of had the other end of this. I've got a couple of the WOW THAT IS GOOD builds, and I never enjoy them as much as purely-themed characters.
You can tell me that DP/dev is not an exceptionally powerful build. You'd be right, it's not.
But that's my highest-level character by at least 6 levels. Because it's FUN. And INTERESTING.
Wow, fantastic responses from everyone!
Lots of good ideas here, but first I never meant to declare my builds the ultimate winners. I'm glad some people realized that. I merely meant that in comparison to my mains, other concepts simply paled. With respect to my view of my plant/psi dom being my gold standard, of course that is my own view, not the ultimate truth. As an aside, I can make an argument that my plant/psi IS better than your ___(insert favorite toon here), but I'll leave that for another thread :P
I love some of the ideas posted here, and I'm going to try to incorporate as many as possible to force myself to enjoy something for reasons other than min-maxing potential. So, I think I'm gonna roll a warshade or something else different on some new server not virtue and just try to remind myself to enjoy the ride rather than the end outcome. I'll focus more attention on creating a backstory and appropriate costumes. I've never thought of intentionally gimping certain aspects of my toons for challenge too. Definitely think I'm going to give that a try. To that end, I've always wanted to find a close-knit smallish SG or VG to bounce with, anyone have any suggestions?
Actually I'm excited to try to start anew! Thanks everyone