Blasters surpurflous?
This is great - you're using this to compare a Blaster to a Blaster, right? You know, since they (generally) only do damage and little else? If you are, then the analogy works, although proves nothing helpful. If you intended to show that increasing a smaller number by a larger percentage is better and therefore Musculature is better for a Defender/Controller than a Blaster? Well, let's develop your analogy further to make it fit their roles;
Boxer A only throws punches - 100% damage output Boxer B spends half his time blocking, which halves incoming damage - 50% damage output, 25% damage reduction Boxer A takes 100% of the damage from Boxer B Boxer B takes 75% of the damage from Boxer A If Boxer A deals 215 damage per hit and lands 10 hits a minute, that's 215*10*0.75 = 1,612.5 DPM to Boxer B If Boxer B deals 110 damage per hit and lands 5 hits a minute (because although he could land 10, he spent half his time blocking), that's 110*5 = 550 DPM to Boxer A So although Boxer A can only take half as much damage as Boxer B, he is producing nearly triple the damage output, since while Boxer B is splitting his time between punching and blocking, Boxer A is only punching. Boxer A wins. Every time. Hurray for terrible analogies! |
But what I was trying to demonstrate was why a smaller percentage increase in overall performance was less desirable than a larger increase in overall performance, and how you have to look at total performance not some small fraction.
Sorry you failed to get that.
If I follow you arguements what I'm I think your trying to say is that damage is least important variable in determining overall performance and that survivability is the most important. An easy way to sum it up is that in the ages old tactical debate of Offense vs Defense you are on the side of and aparently always have argued on the side of defense.
However what you fail to take into account is that the enemies in the game have a set amount of survivability themselves just like they have a set amount of offensive capability. There is a point when building for offense were a character will only need minimal defenses because the enemies will be defeated before they will make enough of a difference. The realities of the game and the way set bonuses are set-up means it is easier to create a defensive advantage than it is an offensive advantage.
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A strange sense of deja vu washes over me as I type this: I still don't understand what your point is.
You have forbidden the use of specific examples of effective blaster play because that doesn't represent Joe Everyblaster, an elusive character whose traits are murky at best. Those of us who report positive experiences with the archetype are said to be outliers, if not simple liars. Perhaps we don't understand the actual badness that we're really so immersed in. The fact that blasters are among the most popular archetypes is presented as evidence of their actual unpopularity. This whole discussion is beginning to look like a thinly disguised cover story for your secret passion of coming up with boxing-related analogies, A_F.
What could anyone present to you at this point that would have any chance of changing your mind?
If I follow you arguements what I'm I think your trying to say is that damage is least important variable in determining overall performance and that survivability is the most important. An easy way to sum it up is that in the ages old tactical debate of Offense vs Defense you are on the side of and aparently always have argued on the side of defense.
However what you fail to take into account is that the enemies in the game have a set amount of survivability themselves just like they have a set amount of offensive capability. There is a point when building for offense were a character will only need minimal defenses because the enemies will be defeated before they will make enough of a difference. The realities of the game and the way set bonuses are set-up means it is easier to create a defensive advantage than it is an offensive advantage. |
Damage isn't any more or less important, whats important is the overall benefit you get from it.
If you have enough damage that you don't need survivability extra damage is even worse for you
What we are talking about is how much more you get from powers how much improvement is there in your build. Blasters get very little overall improvement from musculature
A strange sense of deja vu washes over me as I type this: I still don't understand what your point is.
You have forbidden the use of specific examples of effective blaster play because that doesn't represent Joe Everyblaster, an elusive character whose traits are murky at best. Those of us who report positive experiences with the archetype are said to be outliers, if not simple liars. Perhaps we don't understand the actual badness that we're really so immersed in. The fact that blasters are among the most popular archetypes is presented as evidence of their actual unpopularity. This whole discussion is beginning to look like a thinly disguised cover story for your secret passion of coming up with boxing-related analogies, A_F. What could anyone present to you at this point that would have any chance of changing your mind? |
Numbers don't do it for you
The fact that the devs datamined that blasters were the worst performers of all the ATS
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...nt#post3695810
The fact that for some reason most people that make blasters stop playing them and or delete them doesn't do it for you
You can't demonstrate the things you claim, You can't cite a single case of someone doing so
Just what would convince you ?
Angry rant deleted after reading a post and coming to a new understanding.
You, Another_Fan, build for maximum efficiency and thus consider blasters the least viable of the archetypes because they are not very efficient in the terms of overall character stats. The one thing blasters do really well is damage but in overall build efficiency adding damage to a character who already does damage very well but doesnt do anything else very well makes very little difference in the overall efficiency when efficiency = offenses x defenses especially if the defenses variable is low.
Damage alone doesn't make much improvement I'll agree with you on that. It when it is used along with high amounts of recharge that it becomes a noticeable improvement. Your standard blaster wont gain much out the musculature alpha at any teir. A recharge focused IO build blaster approaching or exceeding permahasten amounts of recharge however improves much more.
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But that's a bit far afield of the argument you made that I was referring to. Your point I was referring to was that Musculature was shortchanging blasters since they only got a 10% boost under certain circumstances and scrappers and defenders got a slightly higher percentage under similar circumstances.
I was just pointing out that under the circumstances you cooked up, a 10% boost for blasters was often going to be a net gain more than scrappers at 13% or defenders at 16%. And in many circumstances the net gain is of more value than the gain, so comparing % gain only and ignoring the base values when the base values are different, is an inherently flawed argument.
Nowhere did you, in your initial argument about Musculature's value, did you address how it ups survivability for blasters or scrappers or defenders, and neither did I in my reply to your argument.
So, to now bring in survival into that argument is a red herring.
The fact that the devs datamined that blasters were the worst performers of all the ATS
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...nt#post3695810 |
It seems to me that you have convinced yourself that blasters are terrible and no amount of argument will sway you. That is totally fine, I have a similar irrational (well...actually, perfectly rational) hatred of kheldians, who I view as terrible, not worth rolling, and generally a liability on teams. I personally can't play kheldians and grumble mildly if forced to team with them. So I can sympathize.
It sounds like you prefer corruptors, which is a totally legitimate choice. Corruptors are a terrific AT and desirable on many teams. There's nothing wrong with not liking a particular archetype. Maybe you'd be happier just setting aside your blaster and playing a corruptor.
PS. EARTH FOR HUMANS!!
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Gracious, man, you did notice that the post you just quoted was about how bad blasters were before they got a massive buff, yes? And that Arcanaville was not particularly amenable to the conclusions you were attempting to draw from that, and in fact pretty much said you were wrong? If you are citing this as evidence of my folly, I guess I'm just confused.
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No you just didn't read the full thing on how in her opinion it in no way moved them out of last place.
It seems to me that you have convinced yourself that blasters are terrible and no amount of argument will sway you. That is totally fine, I have a similar irrational (well...actually, perfectly rational) hatred of kheldians, who I view as terrible, not worth rolling, and generally a liability on teams. I personally can't play kheldians and grumble mildly if forced to team with them. So I can sympathize.
It sounds like you prefer corruptors, which is a totally legitimate choice. Corruptors are a terrific AT and desirable on many teams. There's nothing wrong with not liking a particular archetype. Maybe you'd be happier just setting aside your blaster and playing a corruptor. PS. EARTH FOR HUMANS!! |
It would be more precise to say they don't bring any more to teams than the other direct or primarily damage dealing ATS but have more limitations and difficulties than they do.
I prefer corruptors or defenders as team mates.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
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I prefer team mates that are out to have fun rather than those who try to turn the game into a number crunching bore.
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I just came off a league that failed the B.A.F 4 times in a row ( I was only there for 2). If the leader had of done a little Kentucky windage in creating the teams and balancing I am sure we all would have had more fun.
I just came off a league that failed the B.A.F 4 times in a row ( I was only there for 2). If the leader had of done a little Kentucky windage in creating the teams and balancing I am sure we all would have had more fun.
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The game is not srs b-ness.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
I can see how you could get that, there are all kinds of subthreads in this thread, and I wasn't particularly clear that my focus was overall performance.
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I am aware that in general the discussion is about overall performance, I was staying out of that one, since while blasters have always underperformed for me, I know a good deal of that is that:
1) They are contrary to my play-style.
2) I am not that skilled at them.
Given those two facts, I don't feel qualified to guess how much of their under-performance is due to me, and how much, if any, is intrinsic to the AT.
So, for the most part I don't feel qualified to comment on overall blaster performance. The two contributions I can make are:
First: Many people seem to enjoy them plenty, there are always tons around, and in this thread there are MANY more commentators that think they are fine than that think they are in desperate need of an overhaul. Of course, there are also a ton that would admit that they could use some minor tinkering, but most every AT could use some minor tinkering.
Second: I can anecdotally state that I've not noticed among my teammates that blasters seem to contribute any less, or that there are fewer truly extraordinary blasters than any other AT.
The only AT that I've noticed any problem with teaming-wise (although playing one solo isn't a problem) is MMs. Especially with more than one of them on a team or on indoor maps the large numbers of pets that don't seem to push (even though I thought that was supposed to be fixed a long time ago) means many team members often unable to do their job. But, as I don't hear others clamouring for that to be fixed I suppose it doesn't come up that often.
With pretty much everyone with incarnate abilities having more damage coming out of every pore than a low grade nuclear weapon.
It leaves me wondering whats the role of an At that does damage and nothing else? Especially with dominators, corruptors and some offender builds are matching blaster damage and add alot more to add to a team. I know this is an old argument, but it seems in the new post incarnate enviroment its worse than ever. |
Blasters are the glass cannons of CoX we are designed to do the most damage, and the trade off to that is low HP. Is our HP too low? Some would argue yes, but I'm happy with where we are.
Last time I checked CoX was a game about freedom of choice, just because someone says "Such and Such power combo on such and such AT is garbage" doesn't mean you have to listen to them. Play what you want, how you want, when you want and if people give you guff tell them to shove off.
As for your "no blasters allowed" TF..boy howdy, you go ahead and do that and see how much longer it takes you to kill things.
You are mistaken.
Musculature is not a net 22.5% bonus for blasters because they get other bonuses Aim+Build up+Defiance are all part of the damage a blaster puts out. You are ignoring them in your calculation. Depending on what you are fighting and recharge that works out to an additional 70% to 160% damage. Second musculature is not +45% over the cap, it is +15% subject to ED, then +30% over ED Third we are talking about overall value to the AT. So in an AT with smaller or no self damage buffs the proportion rises. |
BU and Aim are much better burst damage tools than damage over time tools.
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This thread has made me think. I wonder how overpowered a Ranged Damage primary/Control Secondary AT that got the blaster ranged damage modifiers would be.
Work in progress no more. I have decided that I'm going to put my worst spelling errors here. Triage Bacon, Had this baster idea, TLR
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Are you trying to say that being a poor performing AT is an advantage?
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Pick any 8 and go to town.
I still find the "blasters are poor performing cause of powers that only function in levels 45-50" to be an insanely silly argument.
EDIT: SOME primary and secondary sets could use work, but that's true of every AT.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Numbers don't do it for you
The fact that the devs datamined that blasters were the worst performers of all the ATS http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...nt#post3695810 The fact that for some reason most people that make blasters stop playing them and or delete them doesn't do it for you You can't demonstrate the things you claim, You can't cite a single case of someone doing so Just what would convince you ? |
I'm sorry, but you are the very stereotypical "I'm always right because I say I am" ranty idiot. Yeah, idiot. I have a lvl 50 blaster that I love playing and I have several friends that have lvl 50 blasters they love playing. Not to mention I can bring other pure blaster friends into this thread to discredit pretty much everything you say.
Not to mention that little link of your proved you wrong in every sense of the word, you really just need to learn to shut up. No one is taking you even remotely serious.
I'm sorry, but you are the very stereotypical "I'm always right because I say I am" ranty idiot. Yeah, idiot. I have a lvl 50 blaster that I love playing and I have several friends that have lvl 50 blasters they love playing. Not to mention I can bring other pure blaster friends into this thread to discredit pretty much everything you say.
Not to mention that little link of your proved you wrong in every sense of the word, you really just need to learn to shut up. No one is taking you even remotely serious. |
Edit: I don't expect an honest response from you for this, but let me ask whats triggering this ? Is it that your main is a fire/fire and you are being confronted with the idea that what you thought was great, just isn't ?
Is it that when you built it and fell in love with it, it was measured as being the worst performing AT ?
First of all, I believe our discussion is blaster versus corruptor against PvE mobs, not a PvP situation. So a better analogy would be boxer A versus punching bag, compared to boxer B versus punching bag -- not boxer A versus boxer B and see who is left standing. No doubt you have many interesting points about blaster survivability, but they are irrelevant to the subject of whether Musculature is a good alpha boost for blasters or not. Against a punching bag (i.e., a PvE mob), the metric I'd suggest using is simply damage per second.
Second, Musculature Core Paragon is effectively a 22% over-the-cap bonus (i.e., 2/3rds of the 33%) to the base damage of all ATs. My argument is that since blasters have higher base damage, they effectively benefit more from this, because this translates numerically into a higher gain in DPS. I believe your argument is that blasters are getting a different percentage, your 7.5% figure. This is simply wrong. The bonus from Musculature Core Paragon is 22% of the base damage for all ATs, including blasters, defenders and corruptors. Blasters have higher base damage, so they get more DPS from Musculature.
You are mistaken.
Musculature is not a net 22.5% bonus for blasters because they get other bonuses
Aim+Build up+Defiance are all part of the damage a blaster puts out. You are ignoring them in your calculation. Depending on what you are fighting and recharge that works out to an additional 70% to 160% damage.
Second musculature is not +45% over the cap, it is +15% subject to ED, then +30% over ED
Third we are talking about overall value to the AT. So in an AT with smaller or no self damage buffs the proportion rises.