Blasters surpurflous?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoliceWoman View Post
I'm afraid your logic is flawed.

First of all, I believe our discussion is blaster versus corruptor against PvE mobs, not a PvP situation. So a better analogy would be boxer A versus punching bag, compared to boxer B versus punching bag -- not boxer A versus boxer B and see who is left standing. No doubt you have many interesting points about blaster survivability, but they are irrelevant to the subject of whether Musculature is a good alpha boost for blasters or not. Against a punching bag (i.e., a PvE mob), the metric I'd suggest using is simply damage per second.

Second, Musculature Core Paragon is effectively a 22% over-the-cap bonus (i.e., 2/3rds of the 33%) to the base damage of all ATs. My argument is that since blasters have higher base damage, they effectively benefit more from this, because this translates numerically into a higher gain in DPS. I believe your argument is that blasters are getting a different percentage, your 7.5% figure. This is simply wrong. The bonus from Musculature Core Paragon is 22% of the base damage for all ATs, including blasters, defenders and corruptors. Blasters have higher base damage, so they get more DPS from Musculature.

You are mistaken.

Musculature is not a net 22.5% bonus for blasters because they get other bonuses

Aim+Build up+Defiance are all part of the damage a blaster puts out. You are ignoring them in your calculation. Depending on what you are fighting and recharge that works out to an additional 70% to 160% damage.


Second musculature is not +45% over the cap, it is +15% subject to ED, then +30% over ED

Third we are talking about overall value to the AT. So in an AT with smaller or no self damage buffs the proportion rises.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayLeonHart_EU View Post
This is great - you're using this to compare a Blaster to a Blaster, right? You know, since they (generally) only do damage and little else? If you are, then the analogy works, although proves nothing helpful. If you intended to show that increasing a smaller number by a larger percentage is better and therefore Musculature is better for a Defender/Controller than a Blaster? Well, let's develop your analogy further to make it fit their roles;

Boxer A only throws punches - 100% damage output
Boxer B spends half his time blocking, which halves incoming damage - 50% damage output, 25% damage reduction
Boxer A takes 100% of the damage from Boxer B
Boxer B takes 75% of the damage from Boxer A
If Boxer A deals 215 damage per hit and lands 10 hits a minute, that's 215*10*0.75 = 1,612.5 DPM to Boxer B
If Boxer B deals 110 damage per hit and lands 5 hits a minute (because although he could land 10, he spent half his time blocking), that's 110*5 = 550 DPM to Boxer A

So although Boxer A can only take half as much damage as Boxer B, he is producing nearly triple the damage output, since while Boxer B is splitting his time between punching and blocking, Boxer A is only punching. Boxer A wins. Every time.

Hurray for terrible analogies!
That would have been nice if that is what I was trying to do.

But what I was trying to demonstrate was why a smaller percentage increase in overall performance was less desirable than a larger increase in overall performance, and how you have to look at total performance not some small fraction.

Sorry you failed to get that.


 

Posted

If I follow you arguements what I'm I think your trying to say is that damage is least important variable in determining overall performance and that survivability is the most important. An easy way to sum it up is that in the ages old tactical debate of Offense vs Defense you are on the side of and aparently always have argued on the side of defense.

However what you fail to take into account is that the enemies in the game have a set amount of survivability themselves just like they have a set amount of offensive capability. There is a point when building for offense were a character will only need minimal defenses because the enemies will be defeated before they will make enough of a difference. The realities of the game and the way set bonuses are set-up means it is easier to create a defensive advantage than it is an offensive advantage.


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Posted

A strange sense of deja vu washes over me as I type this: I still don't understand what your point is.

You have forbidden the use of specific examples of effective blaster play because that doesn't represent Joe Everyblaster, an elusive character whose traits are murky at best. Those of us who report positive experiences with the archetype are said to be outliers, if not simple liars. Perhaps we don't understand the actual badness that we're really so immersed in. The fact that blasters are among the most popular archetypes is presented as evidence of their actual unpopularity. This whole discussion is beginning to look like a thinly disguised cover story for your secret passion of coming up with boxing-related analogies, A_F.

What could anyone present to you at this point that would have any chance of changing your mind?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crim_the_Cold View Post
If I follow you arguements what I'm I think your trying to say is that damage is least important variable in determining overall performance and that survivability is the most important. An easy way to sum it up is that in the ages old tactical debate of Offense vs Defense you are on the side of and aparently always have argued on the side of defense.

However what you fail to take into account is that the enemies in the game have a set amount of survivability themselves just like they have a set amount of offensive capability. There is a point when building for offense were a character will only need minimal defenses because the enemies will be defeated before they will make enough of a difference. The realities of the game and the way set bonuses are set-up means it is easier to create a defensive advantage than it is an offensive advantage.
So very close

Damage isn't any more or less important, whats important is the overall benefit you get from it.

If you have enough damage that you don't need survivability extra damage is even worse for you

What we are talking about is how much more you get from powers how much improvement is there in your build. Blasters get very little overall improvement from musculature


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
A strange sense of deja vu washes over me as I type this: I still don't understand what your point is.

You have forbidden the use of specific examples of effective blaster play because that doesn't represent Joe Everyblaster, an elusive character whose traits are murky at best. Those of us who report positive experiences with the archetype are said to be outliers, if not simple liars. Perhaps we don't understand the actual badness that we're really so immersed in. The fact that blasters are among the most popular archetypes is presented as evidence of their actual unpopularity. This whole discussion is beginning to look like a thinly disguised cover story for your secret passion of coming up with boxing-related analogies, A_F.

What could anyone present to you at this point that would have any chance of changing your mind?

Numbers don't do it for you

The fact that the devs datamined that blasters were the worst performers of all the ATS

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...nt#post3695810

The fact that for some reason most people that make blasters stop playing them and or delete them doesn't do it for you

You can't demonstrate the things you claim, You can't cite a single case of someone doing so

Just what would convince you ?


 

Posted

Angry rant deleted after reading a post and coming to a new understanding.

You, Another_Fan, build for maximum efficiency and thus consider blasters the least viable of the archetypes because they are not very efficient in the terms of overall character stats. The one thing blasters do really well is damage but in overall build efficiency adding damage to a character who already does damage very well but doesnt do anything else very well makes very little difference in the overall efficiency when efficiency = offenses x defenses especially if the defenses variable is low.

Damage alone doesn't make much improvement I'll agree with you on that. It when it is used along with high amounts of recharge that it becomes a noticeable improvement. Your standard blaster wont gain much out the musculature alpha at any teir. A recharge focused IO build blaster approaching or exceeding permahasten amounts of recharge however improves much more.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
If you don't survive to deliver that DPS its worthless.
True.

But that's a bit far afield of the argument you made that I was referring to. Your point I was referring to was that Musculature was shortchanging blasters since they only got a 10% boost under certain circumstances and scrappers and defenders got a slightly higher percentage under similar circumstances.

I was just pointing out that under the circumstances you cooked up, a 10% boost for blasters was often going to be a net gain more than scrappers at 13% or defenders at 16%. And in many circumstances the net gain is of more value than the gain, so comparing % gain only and ignoring the base values when the base values are different, is an inherently flawed argument.

Nowhere did you, in your initial argument about Musculature's value, did you address how it ups survivability for blasters or scrappers or defenders, and neither did I in my reply to your argument.

So, to now bring in survival into that argument is a red herring.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
The fact that the devs datamined that blasters were the worst performers of all the ATS

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...nt#post3695810
Gracious, man, you did notice that the post you just quoted was about how bad blasters were before they got a massive buff, yes? And that Arcanaville was not particularly amenable to the conclusions you were attempting to draw from that, and in fact pretty much said you were wrong? If you are citing this as evidence of my folly, I guess I'm just confused.


 

Posted

It seems to me that you have convinced yourself that blasters are terrible and no amount of argument will sway you. That is totally fine, I have a similar irrational (well...actually, perfectly rational) hatred of kheldians, who I view as terrible, not worth rolling, and generally a liability on teams. I personally can't play kheldians and grumble mildly if forced to team with them. So I can sympathize.

It sounds like you prefer corruptors, which is a totally legitimate choice. Corruptors are a terrific AT and desirable on many teams. There's nothing wrong with not liking a particular archetype. Maybe you'd be happier just setting aside your blaster and playing a corruptor.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Gracious, man, you did notice that the post you just quoted was about how bad blasters were before they got a massive buff, yes? And that Arcanaville was not particularly amenable to the conclusions you were attempting to draw from that, and in fact pretty much said you were wrong? If you are citing this as evidence of my folly, I guess I'm just confused.

No you just didn't read the full thing on how in her opinion it in no way moved them out of last place.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoliceWoman View Post
It seems to me that you have convinced yourself that blasters are terrible and no amount of argument will sway you. That is totally fine, I have a similar irrational (well...actually, perfectly rational) hatred of kheldians, who I view as terrible, not worth rolling, and generally a liability on teams. I personally can't play kheldians and grumble mildly if forced to team with them. So I can sympathize.

It sounds like you prefer corruptors, which is a totally legitimate choice. Corruptors are a terrific AT and desirable on many teams. There's nothing wrong with not liking a particular archetype. Maybe you'd be happier just setting aside your blaster and playing a corruptor.


PS. EARTH FOR HUMANS!!
Terrible is a loaded term.

It would be more precise to say they don't bring any more to teams than the other direct or primarily damage dealing ATS but have more limitations and difficulties than they do.

I prefer corruptors or defenders as team mates.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madadh View Post

So, to now bring in survival into that argument is a red herring.
I can see how you could get that, there are all kinds of subthreads in this thread, and I wasn't particularly clear that my focus was overall performance.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
I prefer corruptors or defenders as team mates.
I prefer team mates that are out to have fun rather than those who try to turn the game into a number crunching bore.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
I prefer team mates that are out to have fun rather than those who try to turn the game into a number crunching bore.

I just came off a league that failed the B.A.F 4 times in a row ( I was only there for 2). If the leader had of done a little Kentucky windage in creating the teams and balancing I am sure we all would have had more fun.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
I just came off a league that failed the B.A.F 4 times in a row ( I was only there for 2). If the leader had of done a little Kentucky windage in creating the teams and balancing I am sure we all would have had more fun.
I often have more fun, and more laughs, from failing stuff.

The game is not srs b-ness.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
I can see how you could get that, there are all kinds of subthreads in this thread, and I wasn't particularly clear that my focus was overall performance.
Yes, the subthreads are all over the place. I was just making a limited point. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

I am aware that in general the discussion is about overall performance, I was staying out of that one, since while blasters have always underperformed for me, I know a good deal of that is that:
1) They are contrary to my play-style.
2) I am not that skilled at them.
Given those two facts, I don't feel qualified to guess how much of their under-performance is due to me, and how much, if any, is intrinsic to the AT.


So, for the most part I don't feel qualified to comment on overall blaster performance. The two contributions I can make are:

First: Many people seem to enjoy them plenty, there are always tons around, and in this thread there are MANY more commentators that think they are fine than that think they are in desperate need of an overhaul. Of course, there are also a ton that would admit that they could use some minor tinkering, but most every AT could use some minor tinkering.

Second: I can anecdotally state that I've not noticed among my teammates that blasters seem to contribute any less, or that there are fewer truly extraordinary blasters than any other AT.

The only AT that I've noticed any problem with teaming-wise (although playing one solo isn't a problem) is MMs. Especially with more than one of them on a team or on indoor maps the large numbers of pets that don't seem to push (even though I thought that was supposed to be fixed a long time ago) means many team members often unable to do their job. But, as I don't hear others clamouring for that to be fixed I suppose it doesn't come up that often.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
I prefer team mates that are out to have fun rather than those who try to turn the game into a number crunching bore.
So true. A fun team is almost always more enjoyable than a 100% performance team.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubbie View Post
With pretty much everyone with incarnate abilities having more damage coming out of every pore than a low grade nuclear weapon.

It leaves me wondering whats the role of an At that does damage and nothing else?

Especially with dominators, corruptors and some offender builds are matching blaster damage and add alot more to add to a team.

I know this is an old argument, but it seems in the new post incarnate enviroment its worse than ever.
This is thee first time I've really wanted to post on these forums, it may not be the last. My main is a tri-fire blaster that I play a lot. The whole "blasters spend more time face planted" is due to people not knowing how to play them. My build has hover, weave, and tough in it for a reason as I can keep these toggles on and still blast away all day.

Blasters are the glass cannons of CoX we are designed to do the most damage, and the trade off to that is low HP. Is our HP too low? Some would argue yes, but I'm happy with where we are.

Last time I checked CoX was a game about freedom of choice, just because someone says "Such and Such power combo on such and such AT is garbage" doesn't mean you have to listen to them. Play what you want, how you want, when you want and if people give you guff tell them to shove off.

As for your "no blasters allowed" TF..boy howdy, you go ahead and do that and see how much longer it takes you to kill things.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
You are mistaken.

Musculature is not a net 22.5% bonus for blasters because they get other bonuses

Aim+Build up+Defiance are all part of the damage a blaster puts out. You are ignoring them in your calculation. Depending on what you are fighting and recharge that works out to an additional 70% to 160% damage.


Second musculature is not +45% over the cap, it is +15% subject to ED, then +30% over ED

Third we are talking about overall value to the AT. So in an AT with smaller or no self damage buffs the proportion rises.
Just a small calculation note. Things like Defiance and Musculature do not have cast time costs and usually can be factored in directly for reasonable calculations. But Aim and BU do have cast time costs and depending on the situation that is critical. If we're talking about sustained damage output on high level blasters with full or nearly full attack chains, that cast time cost is material. BU's mechanical buff limit on a high level blaster is somewhere around +45% damage, and as a practical matter its going to be closer to +25% damage over time. Aim will be significantly lower than that.

BU and Aim are much better burst damage tools than damage over time tools.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
I often have more fun, and more laughs, from failing stuff.
Are you trying to say that being a poor performing AT is an advantage?


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Posted

This thread has made me think. I wonder how overpowered a Ranged Damage primary/Control Secondary AT that got the blaster ranged damage modifiers would be.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diellan_ View Post
Are you trying to say that being a poor performing AT is an advantage?
I think they are saying what 99% of the non forums folks are saying: COH is so easy that AT doesn't matter.

Pick any 8 and go to town.

I still find the "blasters are poor performing cause of powers that only function in levels 45-50" to be an insanely silly argument.

EDIT: SOME primary and secondary sets could use work, but that's true of every AT.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Numbers don't do it for you

The fact that the devs datamined that blasters were the worst performers of all the ATS

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...nt#post3695810

The fact that for some reason most people that make blasters stop playing them and or delete them doesn't do it for you

You can't demonstrate the things you claim, You can't cite a single case of someone doing so

Just what would convince you ?

I'm sorry, but you are the very stereotypical "I'm always right because I say I am" ranty idiot. Yeah, idiot. I have a lvl 50 blaster that I love playing and I have several friends that have lvl 50 blasters they love playing. Not to mention I can bring other pure blaster friends into this thread to discredit pretty much everything you say.

Not to mention that little link of your proved you wrong in every sense of the word, you really just need to learn to shut up. No one is taking you even remotely serious.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DamionRayne View Post
I'm sorry, but you are the very stereotypical "I'm always right because I say I am" ranty idiot. Yeah, idiot. I have a lvl 50 blaster that I love playing and I have several friends that have lvl 50 blasters they love playing. Not to mention I can bring other pure blaster friends into this thread to discredit pretty much everything you say.

Not to mention that little link of your proved you wrong in every sense of the word, you really just need to learn to shut up. No one is taking you even remotely serious.
I am sorry this hurts you so much you need to lash out.

Edit: I don't expect an honest response from you for this, but let me ask whats triggering this ? Is it that your main is a fire/fire and you are being confronted with the idea that what you thought was great, just isn't ?

Is it that when you built it and fell in love with it, it was measured as being the worst performing AT ?