Blasters surpurflous?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-07-11 23:09 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I think this mindset behind this argument is one of the sillier excuse for drama I've heard in awhile. Well, since the "buffer, NO, healer!" argument died off, anyway. (What? It's STILL going?!) I feel badly that you feel marginalized, but I think this is in your own mind, not in game play. You're a blaster because you prefer to have a toon who deals high damage, and can do so from range. Wait.... you can do melee damage too? And MORE than my scrapper? Does this mean I have to delete all my scrappers, because they are now unnecessary, since you can do the same thing, and some of your powers do it better than I can?
You're not good at what you do because of your AT. Nor are you less good because someone else got a nifty blast. Or got a nuke (hey, at least the shield charge whining died off! What?! The NERFED it because of all the fussing?! Wait... if we got rid of the buffs or the heals in empathy, would that....? Oh, nevermind). People are good at what they do because they have first learned how to play the game. That takes time. It takes patience. Then the players research powerset options, figure out the best combinations for what they want to do, and once again taken the time and care to build and craft a toon that does what they want, in the way in which they want it to work.
If you want a blaster who has buffs, this is called a corruptor. If you want a blaster who has holds, this is called a dominator. If you want a blaster who can do melee, that's called a... oh, yeah, blaster. If you want tank with ranged attacks, you roll up a tank who takes the pool powers that give them 2 ranged attacks. None of these has replaced a blaster in all the years they have been available. It's not your powerset, or your phat lewt, or whatever, that makes you necessary or superfluous to a team. It's YOU!
If you want a reason to feel inadequate, take your spiffed-out, just-turned-50 into a Lambda or a Keyes. But just don't blame those feelings on the toon standing next to you because s/he has a single, strong blast on a 10 minute timer.
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Missed the point, why would you want to take a blaster over a corruptor?|
Originally Posted by _eeek_
I think this mindset behind this argument is one of the sillier excuse for drama I've heard in awhile. Well, since the "buffer, NO, healer!" argument died off, anyway. (What? It's STILL going?!) I feel badly that you feel marginalized, but I think this is in your own mind, not in game play. You're a blaster because you prefer to have a toon who deals high damage, and can do so from range. Wait.... you can do melee damage too? And MORE than my scrapper? Does this mean I have to delete all my scrappers, because they are now unnecessary, since you can do the same thing, and some of your powers do it better than I can?
You're not good at what you do because of your AT. Nor are you less good because someone else got a nifty blast. Or got a nuke (hey, at least the shield charge whining died off! What?! The NERFED it because of all the fussing?! Wait... if we got rid of the buffs or the heals in empathy, would that....? Oh, nevermind). People are good at what they do because they have first learned how to play the game. That takes time. It takes patience. Then the players research powerset options, figure out the best combinations for what they want to do, and once again taken the time and care to build and craft a toon that does what they want, in the way in which they want it to work. If you want a blaster who has buffs, this is called a corruptor. If you want a blaster who has holds, this is called a dominator. If you want a blaster who can do melee, that's called a... oh, yeah, blaster. If you want tank with ranged attacks, you roll up a tank who takes the pool powers that give them 2 ranged attacks. None of these has replaced a blaster in all the years they have been available. It's not your powerset, or your phat lewt, or whatever, that makes you necessary or superfluous to a team. It's YOU! If you want a reason to feel inadequate, take your spiffed-out, just-turned-50 into a Lambda or a Keyes. But just don't blame those feelings on the toon standing next to you because s/he has a single, strong blast on a 10 minute timer. |
You wouldnt, ever..
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
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So said John Henry to the steam hammer, and today like then some people are willing to kill themselves to prove a false point.
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Originally Posted by _eeek_
You're not good at what you do because of your AT. Nor are you less good because someone else got a nifty blast. |
I se 2 people complaining about blasters. I see a lot more saying they are fun.
So please Shubbie and Another Fan just stop playing them.
My last post on this dead horse. Next week it will be are Defenders superfluous.
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You can't count either
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I se 2 people complaining about blasters. I see a lot more saying they are fun.
So please Shubbie and Another Fan just stop playing them. My last post on this dead horse. Next week it will be are Defenders superfluous. |
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Depends on the team. |
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Missed the point, why would you want to take a blaster over a corruptor?
You wouldn't, ever.. |
When I'm on my Tanker, I always try and grab a few Blasters. When I'm on my Controller, I always try and grab a few Blasters. When I play my Blaster, I look for a Tanker followed by a Defender followed by w/e.
Personally, I'd rather have a Blaster and a Defender over 2 Corruptors, but that's just me. However, I am not opposed to having any specific AT on any team. Heck, I'd take a team of Blasters and Stalkers, just because it sounds juicy.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Missed the point, why would you want to take a blaster over a corruptor?
You wouldnt, ever.. |
[anecdotal]
Last night I was on a team about to start a Tin Mage TF and we decided we had too much support. I switched from my kin defender to my AR blaster, and a thermal corruptor switched to his stalker, to give us more damage. I know there will be people who scream "but you'd be crazy to give up kin and thermal!" but our team already had another kin, and an empath. Truthfully it would've been better if one of us switched to a tanker (our brute wasn't so hot at aggro control), but the damage definitely helped. We finished the TF in 22 min 10 sec.
[/anecdotal]
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TALOS - PW war journal - alternate contact tree using MA story arcs
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Again we arent talking level 50 blaster incarnates with purples coming out of every orifice.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Nevermind the fact that what the heck does any character need more than 5 or 6 attacks for anyway, you dont have enough animation time for any more than that.
Recharge is hardly an issue later in the game. |
It is often wise to make use of blaster melee attacks when teamed. Many teams are great at providing all the support one would need to be a pure offense character. Also, one can take many attacks and choose not to build for recharge (although taking only the best attacks and going for recharge is generally optimal, I do not think you truly need optimal, you just want worthwhile).
Even solo, many blasters can easily make use of their melee attacks after applying a control of some sort (you know how it is, "melee attacks itself is not the problem, dominators are fine").
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Being weaker does not equal more fun
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One of the current design elements of the Blaster is that they will die more than others (or at least have more close calls). Without a team to support them they have big drawbacks. Is their offense worth all that trouble? Meh, they are close enough that it likely does not matter. It is not like buff/debuff characters stop buff/debuffing when all the blasters leave. "Oh this team has no blasters, everyone stop using cold shields and no more need for Sleet or AM or Darkest Night."
I have never been on an all corruptor/defender team that only used their blasts. So if armored toons are going to draw aggro anyway and buff/debuff toons are going to buff/debuff anyway, blasters will likely be able to blast and smash just fine.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Could have sworn the "other ATs are always better" thing was put to bed a couple hundred posts ago...
I wouldn't take a corruptor over a blaster because I wouldn't take one archetype over another, period. Sure, I love it when I get a bunch of blasters, scrappers, defenders and corrs on a team because those ATs are a lot of fun and I enjoy seeing others bust heads with them as much as I enjoy doing it myself. If I get a team of tankers and PBs, that's great too! I enjoy playing neither of those but if that's what people want to bring, more power to em, it'll still be as amusing a team as ever.
No AT is required for any content with the possible exception of MMs on Cuda, which is irrelevant to those of us who don't play red side.
Oh and actually, on the subject of weaknesses vs fun, one of the things I most enjoyed about playing a warshade was voids, quants and cysts popping up when you least expected them. Not only is it conceptually fun, there being a whole secret organization that wants to kill you in particular, it adds a serious dash of spice to otherwise humdrum missions. Especially at low levels, when they're a somewhat credible threat.
If I had the option to give myself a similar vulnerability to a clique of fancy looking stalkers on any archetype, I would take it on almost every one of my characters.
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Actually the gap just widens the more resources you can throw into a character.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
So talking about late game blasters is not allowed, except when it supports your argument?
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Blasters got bent over with the alpha slot, and as far as I can tell got the least benefit of the ATs maybe masterminds or khelds did worse but I doubt it.
With the higher difficulties in the trials blasters fall even further behind, unless you have built a blaster for positional defense you're defenseless as almost all the damage is either energy or psi. Building a scrapper for positional defense means using marginal sets sacrificing recharge and generally achieving a less damaging less survivable scrapper.
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No, sometimes opinion is more important than fact. Just because you are in possession of a fact doesn't mean it has anything to do with the conclusion you're drawing from it. You're forgetting this is a game and the purpose of any game is to entertain. Actually, the purpose is to make money, but it does so by entertaining so I'm calling it the same thing.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Opinion <> Fact
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People certainly seem to find Blasters entertaining enough to play in quite respectable numbers. Why? Who knows. If you're right and they are under-performing then the only conclusion is that people don't actually care about performance in the same way that you do. So why fix them when you could be addressing things your customers actually DO seem to have a problem with?
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I'd disagree. Cardiac Alpha allows my AR/Dev to run all 7 toggles at once with no end issues and the +range makes my cones a lot better.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Blasters got bent over with the alpha slot, and as far as I can tell got the least benefit of the ATs maybe masterminds or khelds did worse but I doubt it.
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Never needed more than a numina unique|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I'd disagree. Cardiac Alpha allows my AR/Dev to run all 7 toggles at once with no end issues and the +range makes my cones a lot better.
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But either way tossing isolated examples and saying that makes the case for hundreds of combinations is hardly valid
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Originally Posted by Zem
No, sometimes opinion is more important than fact. Just because you are in possession of a fact doesn't mean it has anything to do with the conclusion you're drawing from it. You're forgetting this is a game and the purpose of any game is to entertain. Actually, the purpose is to make money, but it does so by entertaining so I'm calling it the same thing.
People certainly seem to find Blasters entertaining enough to play in quite respectable numbers. Why? Who knows. If you're right and they are under-performing then the only conclusion is that people don't actually care about performance in the same way that you do. So why fix them when you could be addressing things your customers actually DO seem to have a problem with? |
Well that goes to things stated upthread. Arcanaville pegs blaster creation rates at 25%-30%, and the devs have their average popularity at about 15%.
Sounds like people like the idea but in general hate the implementation.
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I also disagree with these statements.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Actually the gap just widens the more resources you can throw into a character.
Blasters got bent over with the alpha slot, and as far as I can tell got the least benefit of the ATs maybe masterminds or khelds did worse but I doubt it. With the higher difficulties in the trials blasters fall even further behind, unless you have built a blaster for positional defense you're defenseless as almost all the damage is either energy or psi. Building a scrapper for positional defense means using marginal sets sacrificing recharge and generally achieving a less damaging less survivable scrapper. |
Regarding alpha slot, I personally am using the Musculature Core (+DMG) boost on my blaster. Due to the high damage scale that blasters are on, I would argue that blasters benefit the most from this alpha boost. I would never use Musculature boost on a defender, controller, or even a brute, who all have very low damage scale attacks.
Spiritual (+RCHG) boosts probably benefit blasters about as much as anyone else; using your powers more often is good for pretty much everybody. Healer/regen toons might benefit a little more due to the heal boost in this tree.
Cardiac (+ENDRDX) boosts help blasters some; cheaper END costs helps everyone. Admittedly it does not help the END crash from Nova-like powers. Toons with resist toggles benefit a little more due to the RES boost later in the tree; but this can include blasters as they get the option of resist toggles in the epic pool and fighting pool. If you're the type to take those.
Nerve (+DEF/+ACC) boosts are pretty crappy for everyone (I can't even justify taking this boost on an SR or a VEAT), so no difference here.
Regarding the incarnate trials, I personally have not built my blaster for positional defense, instead preferring to maximize my HP and recharge. I certainly could respec to max my range defense, but have chosen to maximize recharge for, well, more damage. Nevertheless, my blaster generally survives incarnate trials just fine, due to a combination of aggro control and maneuver. Yes, even the powers gathering part of Lambda and the attrition damage of Keyes. I find cone attacks like Full Auto are especially good at mowing down mobs running in a straight line on BAF trials.
@PW - Police Woman (50 AR/dev blaster on Liberty)
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I can both agree and disagree with this statement. On one hand, it allows my super recharge heavy Blaster to go absolutely crazy-go-nuts without needing two pocket Kins (though having one can still be useful). On the other hand, if I didn't have such a high recharge rate then I would have to mostly agree that the Alphas are a bit less useful.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Blasters got bent over with the alpha slot, and as far as I can tell got the least benefit of the ATs maybe masterminds or khelds did worse but I doubt it.
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I agree with that. It really is late game where blasters lose out. Lots of attacks is quite a benefit early game.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Actually the gap just widens the more resources you can throw into a character.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Blasters got bent over with the alpha slot, and as far as I can tell got the least benefit of the ATs maybe masterminds or khelds did worse but I doubt it.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
With the higher difficulties in the trials blasters fall even further behind, unless you have built a blaster for positional defense you're defenseless as almost all the damage is either energy or psi. Building a scrapper for positional defense means using marginal sets sacrificing recharge and generally achieving a less damaging less survivable scrapper.
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My Fire/Earth/Ice Dom with capped Sm/Le defense does not have extra issues in the trials due to the lack Psi or positional defense. My ranger Fire/Fire/Force blaster with mid 30s ranged defense is not any more capable than my melee Fire/Fire/Flame blaster with 47% Sm/Le resist and gobs of +regen.
I am really not understanding your point about scrappers. My Invuln scrapper, who has lots of "typed" defense on top of the other stuff Invuln has, seems to work fine. But I have seen SR and Shield toons work great in the trials as well. I guess you can lose some recharge by not slotting Crushing Impacts, but Oblits are popular to add to melee defense and you get recharge in those.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Blasters have most of their damage from self buffs |
Originally Posted by PoliceWoman
I also disagree with these statements.
Regarding alpha slot, I personally am using the Musculature Core (+DMG) boost on my blaster. Due to the high damage scale that blasters are on, I would argue that blasters benefit the most from this alpha boost. I would never use Musculature boost on a defender, controller, or even a brute, who all have very low damage scale attacks. |
As far as percentage gain goes numerically blasters get the smallest percentage gain in damage from musculature. As far as total damage output goes a typical blaster (one with aim+buildup) gains less than 10% additional damage from musulature. A scrapper can easily gain 13% a controller or defender 15%
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| Spiritual (+RCHG) boosts probably benefit blasters about as much as anyone else; using your powers more often is good for pretty much everybody. Healer/regen toons might benefit a little more due to the heal boost in this tree. |
On the core tree you gain recharge healing and stun.
So blasters in general get the benefit of the recharge, and a single target stun or their minor heals.
Resistance/regen defense sets get recharge and plus heal, control sets get recharge, Stun, heal and all in good measure.
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| Cardiac (+ENDRDX) boosts help blasters some; cheaper END costs helps everyone. Admittedly it does not help the END crash from Nova-like powers. Toons with resist toggles benefit a little more due to the RES boost later in the tree; but this can include blasters as they get the option of resist toggles in the epic pool and fighting pool. If you're the type to take those. |
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| Nerve (+DEF/+ACC) boosts are pretty crappy for everyone (I can't even justify taking this boost on an SR or a VEAT), so no difference here. |
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| Regarding the incarnate trials, I personally have not built my blaster for positional defense, instead preferring to maximize my HP and recharge. I certainly could respec to max my range defense, but have chosen to maximize recharge for, well, more damage. Nevertheless, my blaster generally survives incarnate trials just fine, due to a combination of aggro control and maneuver. Yes, even the powers gathering part of Lambda and the attrition damage of Keyes. I find cone attacks like Full Auto are especially good at mowing down mobs running in a straight line on BAF trials. |
You can disagree all you like but you can't back it up.
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In a game with 14 ATs, a 15% rating is bad? I'm not sure how that works out to a conclusion of "hates the implementation". Maybe it's just that Blasters seem the most straight-forward or stereotypical choice for a comic book genre game and as people get more experience they branch out to the other archetypes... and yet while doing so a respectable 15% continue to play Blasters.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Well that goes to things stated upthread. Arcanaville pegs blaster creation rates at 25%-30%, and the devs have their average popularity at about 15%.
Sounds like people like the idea but in general hate the implementation. |
In the 2009 data from BaB that 15% was the highest of any of the other ATs. If they have since slid to even third place they are most certainly NOT hurting for players. I haven't seen you explain this in any convincing way except to suggest that you have four blasters of your own that you only use for marketeering.
I hardly think there's a large population of Blaster-marketeers out there to explain the ATs apparent popularity. That would be a bit of a stretch.
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Its not a question of are they nice, its did everyone get more out of them ? |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I'd be fascinated to hear your reasoning on this. I am very fond of both the Cardiac and Musculature on my "main" blaster and am happy with the Musculature and Spiritual on another blaster. |
Blasters really get the least out of the pairings. Recharge+Heal is win win with a cherry on top for a wide variety of ats. End Reduction + Damage resistance is pure cake to the ats with decent armor sets (and that includes controllers, doms, defenders, etc)
Where is the Damage/Range or the Recharge/Range
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While sturdy characters are a huge boon in the trials (not that you need to be playing one, but it is a good idea to travel with one if yours is not), you are very incorrect in your assessment of the damage levels. Most damage in the trials is (not surprisingly) Smashing and Lethal. There certainly is a good amount of Energy damage and Lambda has a decent percentage of Psi. My Fire/Earth/Ice Dom with capped Sm/Le defense does not have extra issues in the trials due to the lack Psi or positional defense. My ranger Fire/Fire/Force blaster with mid 30s ranged defense is not any more capable than my melee Fire/Fire/Flame blaster with 47% Sm/Le resist and gobs of +regen. I am really not understanding your point about scrappers. My Invuln scrapper, who has lots of "typed" defense on top of the other stuff Invuln has, seems to work fine. But I have seen SR and Shield toons work great in the trials as well. I guess you can lose some recharge by not slotting Crushing Impacts, but Oblits are popular to add to melee defense and you get recharge in those. |
Bad phrasing on my part re the scrapper what I meant to say was build a blaster for positional defense generally produced an underperforming ranged scrapper.
For the toons you mention the typed defense is cake. A dom can lock down entire spawns before they can even fire back.
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Oh I've got that as well, and the miracle unique, and a bunch of recovery set bonuses. My Blaster still runs hot enough to need Cardiac. Now if Cardiac didn't exist I'd shift things around and add more end reduction (or drop some toggles) so he could run without it but that would come at the cost of damage and/or defense.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Never needed more than a numina unique
But either way tossing isolated examples and saying that makes the case for hundreds of combinations is hardly valid |
The Alpha slot is useful to Blasters because by building around it they can get more of other things they want. If you look at the Alpha slot in isolation then it doesn't do a whole lot for Blasters, it's when you start figuring how you can optimize your build around it that you start seeing opportunities.
A T4 Alpha provides 15% ED-affected enhancement and 30% ED-free enhancement. It's important to consider both aspects when designing a build. I have several characters who use the Musculature Alpha boost. With them I always look for powers where I can usefully drop their damage enhancement to 85%-90%, when you factor in the Alpha Boost those powers have pretty much the same enhancement as if I'd gone for 100% enhancement and the half a slot savings allows me to enhance other aspects of my build.
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Originally Posted by Zem
In a game with 14 ATs, a 15% rating is bad? I'm not sure how that works out to a conclusion of "hates the implementation". Maybe it's just that Blasters seem the most straight-forward or stereotypical choice for a comic book genre game and as people get more experience they branch out to the other archetypes... and yet while doing so a respectable 15% continue to play Blasters.
In the 2009 data from BaB that 15% was the highest of any of the other ATs. If they have since slid to even third place they are most certainly NOT hurting for players. I haven't seen you explain this in any convincing way except to suggest that you have four blasters of your own that you only use for marketeering. I hardly think there's a large population of Blaster-marketeers out there to explain the ATs apparent popularity. That would be a bit of a stretch. |
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300xxxxxxxxxx - - - - - - - - - - 15- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa - - - - yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? - - - - 0----1----2----3----4----5----6----7----8----9----0----1----2----3----4----5
15 % the average popularity
Average = Mean = Sum of samples/total number of samples
In this case it implies for all the initial samples at 30% there is going to have to be enough samples sufficiently below 15% to pull the total down so it sums to the average.
If you weight by population it gets worse as any ATs greatest population will be at the time of creation
Or simply you are going to need enough Ys to balance your Xs
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Well lets see. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Its not a question of are they nice, its did everyone get more out of them ?
Blasters really get the least out of the pairings. Recharge+Heal is win win with a cherry on top for a wide variety of ats. End Reduction + Damage resistance is pure cake to the ats with decent armor sets (and that includes controllers, doms, defenders, etc) Where is the Damage/Range or the Recharge/Range |
Endurance/Range is a solid choice for any Blaster with cones who also wants to run a number of toggles (i.e. Leadership, Fighting, Epic Shield etc.). Blaster toggles mostly come from power pools and have a correspondingly high end cost.
Recharge/Stun or Recharge/Stun/Slow allows a lot of Blaster combos to get higher recharge while maximizing the potential of some of their secondary abilities (which they often lack the slots for). Most Blasters have access to a stun of some type and slows are present in several sets.
Damage/Immobilize allows a Blaster to make better use of the immobilize from their secondary and also helps if they opt to pick up an AoE immobilize from their Epic Pool.
Being weaker does not equal more fun
Because some people dont have problems doesnt mean no one has problems or this post wouldnt have hit 350 posts, and this is hardly the first time a post like this has come up
You never see people saying controllers or corruptors are too weak.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.