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PVPLOL|
Originally Posted by DMystic
To date I have never seen a good reason why 1.125 would be imbalanced on a Stalker.
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Honestly I agree. They should have the states of a scrapper. Especially since now the content for both is universal, originally it was because CoV's content was designed balanced for a stalker with CoV's launch - now it's no longer an issue.
That's why I specified a good reason 
I'd argue about CoV content having been balanced with Stalkers in mind.
Or rather Stalkers having been balanced for the content in the game.
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No I am talking single target. Since the Hidden CS BU recharge buff I never use AS anymore, and only use it solo when I feel the need to throw a Hadoken.|
Originally Posted by Zem
Kind of sounds like you're talking about using AS outside of Hide. That's not really what I mean. Yeah, Elec or Spines *might* get some value out of that but it's a bad idea for pretty much anyone else. From Hide or after Placate however, it can't be beat for single-target DPA, provided it's not interrupted. So it will improve an ST chain if you can start with AS from Hide and/or follow Placate with AS.
I assume you don't use AS from Hide or Placate because you're one of those "AoE is everything" people. And what I'm saying is that yeah, AoE is great... except when it's irrelevant. And it's irrelevant when there's enough to kill minions and LTs but not bosses (unless the entire spawn is bosses or EBs or something, which does happen sometimes). |
Stopping mid attack chain to placate-AS kills DPS. God forbid if you aren't softcapped.
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I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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I usually just skim the Stalker forums these days, but I have to ask: does a blaster use a sniper attack in an attack chain? |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I don't think i can find a situation where my KM would do more damage over time including AS in the attack chain. Now if you are playing Elec melee or spines, I am sure you could just barely find a boost (if you aren't interruped).
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Of course not. That would be stupid, and would lower the dps considerably.
So why in hell are you talking about AS being useless because it can't be used in an attack chain that ought to consist of some or all of the other seven attacks from your primary?
AS is not - and was never intended to be - a dps tool. It's useful in the same way that Sniper Attacks are useful to blasters; a subject which can be debated.
But don't go fitting square pegs in round holes by comparing a melee sniper attack to any attacks that are useful to dps attack chains.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Ah yes, KM might indeed be a special case since that change to CS. My KM/Nin is just starting out. Looking forward to that. |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
No I am talking single target. Since the Hidden CS BU recharge buff I never use AS anymore, and only use it solo when I feel the need to throw a Hadoken.
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| Stopping mid attack chain to placate-AS kills DPS. God forbid if you aren't softcapped. |
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I suspect the real problem might be Blasters. Any time this Scrapper/Stalker thing manages to get brought up in the AT forum, the Blaster fans start in. They're similarly worried that Scrappers outshine them in survival AND damage output. Not sure I buy that, but if true then it's the same argument we have, but it's also being stuck between a rock and a hard place for us. There may just not be any room to put us above Scrappers in damage but below Blasters. Not without making Blaster damage entirely ridiculous.|
Originally Posted by Stryph
PVPLOL
Honestly I agree. They should have the states of a scrapper. Especially since now the content for both is universal, originally it was because CoV's content was designed balanced for a stalker with CoV's launch - now it's no longer an issue. |
PVP is certainly no longer a concern. They can easily adjust the damage output of select powers, like Assassin Strike, downward if they think it's too much for PVP with a higher damage modifier. They did it to normalize long-animation-time attacks for PVP already. Though I am not sure which they care less about: Stalkers or PvP.
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I don't find it to be to big of a deal if a stalkers Dmg was the same as blasters...I still feel that a blaster would come out on top due to ranged attacks, aoe's and pbaoe's.
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The Blaster melee damage modifier is already the same as a Stalkers - scale 1.0 - the modifier is higher for ranged damage, where they have the same modifier that Scrappers have for melee (1.125) and get Defiance to provide a fairly persistent +damage. Of course, generally speaking ranged attacks have a lower damage scale than melee attacks...|
Originally Posted by Negate
I don't find it to be to big of a deal if a stalkers Dmg was the same as blasters...I still feel that a blaster would come out on top due to ranged attacks, aoe's and pbaoe's.
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I'd still be content with a 1.125 base modifier and the same melee damage buff modifier that Scrappers and Blasters get. If Blasters want more damage because of that, fine. They can get the same 1.125 for melee, and then they won't have a lower melee modifier than Dominators (1.05).
Besides, according to the devs more damage fixes everything. Just look at the changes made on Tankers (Bruising: -res = +dam) and Defenders (straight +dam).
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Why do Blasters feel that they have to out dmg Stalkers? Stalkers should have more dmg than a blaster anyway if you compare the AT's. It just seems to me the people who would complain about stalkers doing more dmg really can't see the big picture...or either they never have played a stalker before.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
The Blaster melee damage modifier is already the same as a Stalkers - scale 1.0 - the modifier is higher for ranged damage, where they have the same modifier that Scrappers have for melee (1.125) and get Defiance to provide a fairly persistent +damage. Of course, generally speaking ranged attacks have a lower damage scale than melee attacks...
I'd still be content with a 1.125 base modifier and the same melee damage buff modifier that Scrappers and Blasters get. If Blasters want more damage because of that, fine. They can get the same 1.125 for melee, and then they won't have a lower melee modifier than Dominators (1.05). Besides, according to the devs more damage fixes everything. Just look at the changes made on Tankers (Bruising: -res = +dam) and Defenders (straight +dam). |
Well since Blaster survivability is less than that of a Stalker, it stands to reason that a Blaster should do more damage.
With the way things are though if Blasters and Stalkers shared the same damage modifier the average Blaster should still out damage the average Stalker because of Defiance.
However this may get us to the point where Blasters and Stalkers end up with the same kind of situation we have now between Scrappers and Stalkers. That relationship being that at Stalker peak performance they are just barely ahead of Scrappers.
Blasters should be the undoubted kings of damage, Stalkers should be the undoubted kings amongst the Melee AT's.
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Exactly, but like you said and even Sio admitted even if Stalkers and blasters had the same modifiers Defiance would push Blasters to the top.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Blasters should be the undoubted kings of damage, Stalkers should be the undoubted kings amongst the Melee AT's.
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Even with 1.125 damage modifier, Stalker still has the old problems. Some sets have limited aoe or have zero aoe. If you have limited aoe, you are at disadvantage.
I think Stalker has enough damage with team critical. I may increase base critical rate from 10% to 15% because Stalker, as an Assassin, shouldn't rely that heavily on teammate's buff. Himself should deal more damage.
I prefer having higher critical rate than straight damage up because I enjoy seeing Criticals. This just means they need to add more critical damage in Energy Melee.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Get out of my head.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
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It's a shame Stalkers have gotten the "Oil Slick" treatment.
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MM pets run away when Stalkers are lit on fire?
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Originally Posted by Negate
It's a shame Stalkers have gotten the "Oil Slick" treatment.
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LOL, No Devs running away when it comes to fixing the issue! :P|
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
MM pets run away when Stalkers are lit on fire?
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Seriously, OSA didn't get fixed until what...barely a year ago? I was shocked that a Defender Tier 9 attack was overlooked/not fixed for so many years. Maybe Stalkers share the same fate.
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The difference is survivability between a Blaster and a Stalker is significantly larger than the difference in survivability between a Stalker and a Scrapper. However, folks are arguing (with reason) that Stalkers should do more damage than Scrappers. |
Originally Posted by Negate
Why do Blasters feel that they have to out dmg Stalkers? Stalkers should have more dmg than a blaster anyway if you compare the AT's. It just seems to me the people who would complain about stalkers doing more dmg really can't see the big picture...or either they never have played a stalker before.
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Blasters pay dearly for being able to do high damage, and thus should be easily the strongest damage dealers.
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I understand that but the lack of aoe hurts stalkers big time. It's almost as if there's no true solution for the AT w/o having to raise the dmg for blasters even more. Maybe that's the only true solution.
To be honest I can't truly argue my point due to me not knowing where certain At's stand dmg wise. I'm assuming it's like this...
Blasters..........StlkrScrapper or is it...
Blasters...StlkrScrapper
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Hehe Win!|
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
MM pets run away when Stalkers are lit on fire?
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And I'll toss out my vote for blasters out-damaging stalkers, and stalkers noticably outdamaging scrappers.
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Nitpick - it's a tier 8 (EMP Arrow is the tier 9).|
Originally Posted by Negate
Seriously, OSA didn't get fixed until what...barely a year ago? I was shocked that a Defender Tier 9 attack was overlooked/not fixed for so many years. Maybe Stalkers share the same fate.
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Originally Posted by Negate
I understand that but the lack of aoe hurts stalkers big time. It's almost as if there's no true solution for the AT w/o having to raise the dmg for blasters even more. Maybe that's the only true solution.
To be honest I can't truly argue my point due to me not knowing where certain At's stand dmg wise. I'm assuming it's like this... Blasters..........StlkrScrapper or is it... Blasters...StlkrScrapper |
To use the "comparative bars" it's more like (totally non-scientific and subjective):
Single Target Damage over time (solo)
..|-------Blaster-------|
..|-------Scrapper-------|
.......|------Stalker-----|
AoE Damage over time (solo)
.......|------Blaster------|
...........|-----Scrapper-------|
.......................|-----Stalker----|
Survivability
....|-----Scrapper-------|
.................|-----Stalker----|
.......................................|---Blaster---|
So if there were some sort of spectrum, Stalkers wouldn't fall between Blasters and Scrappers for damage - they'd be behind both. Things like lacking damage auras, lower damage modifiers, lower damage buff modifiers, and no sets providing persistent damage buffs (KM is debatable with CS's "critical" fixed) reduce even the peak single-target values so that on average, a Scrapper is going to do more.
The issue with Blasters is that they're "squishies" and usually get compared to other squishies - where their survivability numbers are lower but not that much lower then Controllers, Corruptors, Defenders, and Dominators - instead of the melee ATs, where their survivability is very low despite having more base hit points than any of those.
So sure, bump the melee damage modifier on both Blasters and Stalkers. *shrug*
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Bah! The forum ate my post! *sigh* I'm to lazy to write it all out again. So I'm going to say I agree with Sio about the bump. Also thanks Sio for the chart.
Why focus on our weaknesses (sustained AoE damage) when we can big up our strengths to make the game more diverse? (burst Single target damage). AoE stalkering is an option already, but it isn't what draws me to the AT.
Not saying another look at the damage values for stalkers won't be beneficial, but I'd love it if we could just be the undisputed boss killers, and undisputed masters of stealth.
Unfortunately, neither is true at the moment. Making Placate AoE, making Assassin's Strike uninterruptible (or something), increasing attack damage (and recharge?), giving Hide combat stealth, etc, all this would be great though.
OMG! How like, totally kewl are these characters?!1
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Well, Martial Arts is decent for ST damage with team criticals. Without team bonus, I think even my Bane can beat MA Stalker and that's sad. And I am sure Night Widow can beat MA Stalker too.
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Originally Posted by oreso
Why focus on our weaknesses (sustained AoE damage) when we can big up our strengths to make the game more diverse? (burst Single target damage). AoE stalkering is an option already, but it isn't what draws me to the AT.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Actualy you should modify that to say...|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The difference is survivability between a Blaster and a Stalker is significantly larger than the difference in survivability between a Stalker and a Scrapper. However, folks are arguing (with reason) that Stalkers should do more damage than Scrappers.
Blasters pay dearly for being able to do high damage, and thus should be easily the strongest damage dealers. |
Blasters Out-damage stalkers normaly and do even more damage with their build ups.
They also can outdamage and attack faster..due to faster recharges and do so with range...while a stalker ends up chasing the targets or having to get in close.
So I am just not seeing the paying dearly part for blasters.
Exactly how are they paying dearly?....lower health?...looks only 100 points different to me.....no defenses?..they get those in their epics and from ancilary pools....so again not seeing the paying dearly part.
I do see that Blasters have their extra damage bonus inhearent power and and their ability to stilll use attacks while stun held or slept or even while knocked down....
Which reminds me...what exactly do stalkers get as their inhearent power?...the hide power lets them do criticals.....but thats from the power itself(just like blasters get usualy an immobolize power).....I mean from the actual archtype
Now the question becomes how to go about doing it?
For me
1) Build Up becomes the 100% bonus it's meant to be.
2)Stalker modifier raised
I would love to see the Stalker mod Raised to the 1.125 Scrappers enjoy.
To date I have never seen a good reason why 1.125 would be imbalanced on a Stalker.