Stalkers ??? Where??? R U Hiding?


Angelic_EU

 

Posted

Why are stalkers becoming harder and harder to find in the game. Are they so good at using stealth you can't see them? Or do stalkers need buffs to make their population grow.

Thanks


 

Posted

I play mine pretty often (I'm in the process of leveling a new KM Stalker over on Union, so Kestrel, Mei, Ru and Shade haven't been around as much on Liberty as they usually are-), but stalkers just aren't particularly common over-all. Too many players consider them a broken, or at least heavily sub-par, AT I guess.

I enjoy my own a lot, but that "LOLStalkers"-thing seems to work against getting other people to try them.


@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...

 

Posted

I was in a mid to high teens group earlier, had 3 stalkers in it. My Dark/Dark, a KM/Nin, and a Nin/Nin I think. Was pretty fun.


No one pays attention to me, cause I listen to the voices in my head.

 

Posted

Stalkers seem to only be good at one aspect of the game, which is PvP, which almost everybody ignores, especially the devs.

Single-target burst damage is virtually worthless in this game from any practical standpoint, especially when coupled with the squishiest defense of any melee archetype in the game.


Ice/Ice Blaster. Dedication to concept is an ugly thing.
Claws/WP Brute. Sex without the angst.
Every CoX character lies somewhere on this spectrum.

 

Posted

If stalkers did about ~20% higher damage than they do now, lack of AoE or not, squishie defenses or not, I'm sure there'd be plenty more people playing them.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
If stalkers did about ~20% higher damage than they do now, lack of AoE or not, squishie defenses or not, I'm sure there'd be plenty more people playing them.
HELL YES!

Truthfully, it's just the lack of ST DPS that keeps me from getting into Stalkers.

Yes, I know Assassin Strike will make that DPS better. But taking a softcapped Stalker out against hard targets, and seeing my placate get blasted through and negating me using the Assassin Strike I was setting up to use, or even just AVs having so high of perception, that I couldn't even sneak up on them. :/ I had to rely on defense to hopefully get that first AS off.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramontane View Post
Stalkers seem to only be good at one aspect of the game, which is PvP
Well, Stalker is only good at "ganking" newbies in zones. Stalkers suck in tournaments. Basically Stalkers suck ihin pvp when you know they are there.


What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

 

Posted

Stalker's problem also has more to do with some of the old sets that don't get any aoe at all. The newer sets like Dual Blade, Electricity Melee and Kinetic Melee are what I consider "good enough".

Sets like Martial Arts and Energy Melee still need more love.


What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibikao View Post
Stalker's problem also has more to do with some of the old sets that don't get any aoe at all. The newer sets like Dual Blade, Electricity Melee and Kinetic Melee are what I consider "good enough".

Sets like Martial Arts and Energy Melee still need more love.
If it wasn't for changing the IO sets, I still think the best suggestion for these sets is removing...

...Thunder Kick for Dragon's Tail. Not sure if it breaks the cottage rule to do so. But they did turn Stalkers Eviserate into a ST attack after the fact, if memory serves me correctly.

Move it up on the Power levels and move other attacks down the list.

...Stun for Whirling Hands. Stun isn't even almost okay damage, and Whirling Hands still stuns. Whirling Hands may not be the best PBAOE attack (could be made into one though) but its AOE.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramontane View Post
Stalkers seem to only be good at one aspect of the game, which is PvP, which almost everybody ignores, especially the devs.

Single-target burst damage is virtually worthless in this game from any practical standpoint, especially when coupled with the squishiest defense of any melee archetype in the game.
For what it's worth, I've done PVP exactly once with one of mine. (And even then it was only a bit of payback directed at a dude who decided to grief a group of us helping someone with his RV hero badges. <_< PvP isn't usually my thing in City, but he was begging for it.)

Anyway, I really think that whole "But they're only good for PVP!"-thing is one of the perceptions that works against them as an all-around AT. The truth is, they handle just fine in PvE, especially if you like to solo. They're not OMGAWESOME if you're out to seriously build an UberToon, but they're not bad, either.


@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...

 

Posted

Like already said. Stalkers don't do any thing particularly better than the other three melee ATs.

There is a meta of:

Scrapper----------Brute----------Tanker
Damage---------------------------Durabilty


Where does stalker fit in there?

Why play an AT with less durablity and less Burst and Sustained DPS than a scrapper?


When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...


BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Test_Rat View Post
Like already said. Stalkers don't do any thing particularly better than the other three melee ATs.

There is a meta of:

Scrapper----------Brute----------Tanker
Damage---------------------------Durabilty


Where does stalker fit in there?

Why play an AT with less durablity and less Burst and Sustained DPS than a scrapper?
It's fun to sneak around maps and to hit things from Hide? Even a scrap with layered stealth really can't do that as well as a Stalker. I know... I have a few "sneaky scrappers", too.

We're not all in this to be power-players, you know.


@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...

 

Posted

Every character can be fun, so it makes no sense to bring that up. Same with the "they do good enough, really" argument.

If the game is more balanced so that ATs are close enough in power:
- people who are on the fence between power and fun/concept get to choose based on fun/concept alone.
- people who already play the currently weaker ATs get to see their character become a little bit more powerful, are more appreciated by other players and get more team invites.

Everyone wins.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright View Post
It's fun to sneak around maps and to hit things from Hide? Even a scrap with layered stealth really can't do that as well as a Stalker. I know... I have a few "sneaky scrappers", too.

We're not all in this to be power-players, you know.
Actually brutes have the best melee stealth in the EA set.

Combat stealth in energy cloak > hide.


When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...


BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!

 

Posted

I quite often play on my stalker in Union, too. In fact, I play with it so much I dare say it's my main :3

I really haven't understood why Stalkers get so little respect from the players! I mean sure, they are not as resistant as Scrappers and they don't have access to that much AoE, but why should that be bad? I often get the feeling that my stalker, albeit battling at a lower difficulty than my other toons (x3), is one of my strongest toons, for the simple matter that her ST damage is so strong as it is. You see, in my book, a toon that can destroy +2/+3 bosses without the biggest qualms is just as good as the toon that can break through a mob of +0/x8 in 30 seconds! And most importantly, my Stalker is so interesting to me because I HAVE FUN PLAYING HER.

Furthermore, I certainly feel that Stalkers team experiences can be best shown in the Incarnate trials!
- Generally, their AS can deal a lot of damage to the AV's in question
- On Lambda, a lvl 50+3 Stalker should be very much able to single-handedly take out a glowie like other toons indeed, although with the chance of attracting less followers thanks to Hide
- Keyes is in fact one of my main's best trial experiences, as she's a DM/Regen (bye bye AM Pulse), AM pulse does not break hide and she can easily get a lot of temps from glowies unnoticed, thanks to her Hide


@Global: Difficult One
Playing on European Servers (Union, Defiant)

If a person turns down an idea, he turns down an opportunity to evolve himself

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Test_Rat View Post
Like already said. Stalkers don't do any thing particularly better than the other three melee ATs.

There is a meta of:

Scrapper----------Brute----------Tanker
Damage---------------------------Durabilty


Where does stalker fit in there?

Why play an AT with less durablity and less Burst and Sustained DPS than a scrapper?
It should be:

Stalker ----Scrapper----Brute----- Tanker

Damage---------------------------Durability


In fact it is:



StlkrScrapperBruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuteTank


Damage---------------------------Durability

The Devs need to fix this like so:

Stalker------------------Scrapper----------Brute-----------------Tank


Damage--------------------------------------------------------Durability



Give stalkers a base melee dam mod of 1.25. (!)

See:

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage_Scalars

WTF? Why do DOMS have a higher melee damage scalar than STALKERS?

At the same time, raise Stalkers and Scrappers damage cap by 100 percent, and raise tanks resistance caps by three percent.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage_Cap#Damage

Scraps and Stalkers now cap at +600 percent melee, Brutes at +775, tanks at +400. Assuming I'm reading this right.

If an attack does a base 100, then:

Tanks start at 80x1.2=96 and cap at 320 x1.2 = 384 (w/bruising, unchanged)

Brutes start at 75 and can cap at 581(unchanged)

Scrappers start at 112.5x1.06 =119 and can cap at 675x1.06=715.5 (raised from 596)

Stalkers start at 125 and can cap at 750+(raised from 500+) Yes, I completely ignore the complicated kabuki-dance extras that stalkers get because it's stupid and they should do STOOPID DAMAGE for having to put up with that crap. So whatever they peak at, buffed and dancing all purty, should be enough to make your eyes pop out. Crit that boss to death in one shot? They sure as hell deserve it for having to wear the pretty little ballerina dress ALL THE TIME.

Voila, now each melee archetype is distinctly unique. Stalkers can handily out-damage everybody in melee, scrappers out-damage brutes when buffed enough, and tanks out-survive brutes by enough to make a difference.

Ehn, but what do I know.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Microcosm View Post
They need buffs. This has become more apparent since GR hit.
^^^^This x ∞

Thats pretty much it. Until some dev is shown how blantently obvious there are issues nothing will get fixed.


Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator

Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
It should be:

Stalker ----Scrapper----Brute----- Tanker

Damage---------------------------Durability


In fact it is:



StlkrScrapperBruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuteTank


Damage---------------------------Durability

The Devs need to fix this like so:

Stalker------------------Scrapper----------Brute-----------------Tank


Damage--------------------------------------------------------Durability



Give stalkers a base melee dam mod of 1.25. (!)

See:

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage_Scalars

WTF? Why do DOMS have a higher melee damage scalar than STALKERS?

At the same time, raise Stalkers and Scrappers damage cap by 100 percent, and raise tanks resistance caps by three percent.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Damage_Cap#Damage

Scraps and Stalkers now cap at +600 percent melee, Brutes at +775, tanks at +400. Assuming I'm reading this right.

If an attack does a base 100, then:

Tanks start at 80x1.2=96 and cap at 320 x1.2 = 384 (w/bruising, unchanged)

Brutes start at 75 and can cap at 581(unchanged)

Scrappers start at 112.5x1.06 =119 and can cap at 675x1.06=715.5 (raised from 596)

Stalkers start at 125 and can cap at 750+(raised from 500+) Yes, I completely ignore the complicated kabuki-dance extras that stalkers get because it's stupid and they should do STOOPID DAMAGE for having to put up with that crap. So whatever they peak at, buffed and dancing all purty, should be enough to make your eyes pop out. Crit that boss to death in one shot? They sure as hell deserve it for having to wear the pretty little ballerina dress ALL THE TIME.

Voila, now each melee archetype is distinctly unique. Stalkers can handily out-damage everybody in melee, scrappers out-damage brutes when buffed enough, and tanks out-survive brutes by enough to make a difference.

Ehn, but what do I know.
To be fair doms where in way worse shape then stalkers. Things changed drastically for them once they got a useful buff. What needs to happen is all this end/recharge/damage formula needs to go out the window for stalkers or they need to make the damage mods so high that it does not break the formula some how. Either way something has got to give cuz stalkers are hurting bad. Right now the only ways I can think of fixing them is to either return the scaling AS we had on test server a few years back and/or make the single target damage so high that it mimics aoe damage, meaning every hit with build up will always 1 shot bosses. Its either do this or go back and put back all the aoes that were gutted from the sets.


Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator

Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRyu View Post
To be fair doms where in way worse shape then stalkers. Things changed drastically for them once they got a useful buff. What needs to happen is all this end/recharge/damage formula needs to go out the window for stalkers or they need to make the damage mods so high that it does not break the formula some how. Either way something has got to give cuz stalkers are hurting bad. Right now the only ways I can think of fixing them is to either return the scaling AS we had on test server a few years back and/or make the single target damage so high that it mimics aoe damage, meaning every hit with build up will always 1 shot bosses. Its either do this or go back and put back all the aoes that were gutted from the sets.
I had thought about that once for Stalkers.

The Stalker AT could get something akin to the Claws Powerset, End Discount.

This would make Claws even more End friendly than on Scrappers/Brutes, and over all Stalkers could be the end friendly DPSers.

Still would rather see an increase in damage for DPS purposes or a way to use Assassin Strike mre often without having Placate interrupted so often, to increase their DPS that way.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Test_Rat View Post
Actually brutes have the best melee stealth in the EA set.

Combat stealth in energy cloak > hide.
Dark Armor has unsuppressed PvE stealth, the same amount that Energy Cloak provides, in Cloak of Darkness. Really, Energy Cloak is a weaker version of Cloak of Darkness, since it doesn't provide +perception with all other numbers being equal.

So since Cloak of Darkness is better than Energy Cloak, and due to AT modifiers affecting the strength of the other effects of the power, Tankers have the best melee stealth*.



* - if you accept that unsuppressing stealth is better regardless of the amount of stealth provided; either way, game-wide it's Controllers because Superior Invisibility has a higher radius than Hide and also doesn't suppress.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
Dark Armor has unsuppressed PvE stealth, the same amount that Energy Cloak provides, in Cloak of Darkness. Really, Energy Cloak is a weaker version of Cloak of Darkness, since it doesn't provide +perception with all other numbers being equal.

So since Cloak of Darkness is better than Energy Cloak, and due to AT modifiers affecting the strength of the other effects of the power, Tankers have the best melee stealth*.



* - if you accept that unsuppressing stealth is better regardless of the amount of stealth provided; either way, game-wide it's Controllers because Superior Invisibility has a higher radius than Hide and also doesn't suppress.
I mean Stealth. Not any other effect.

I am quite certain an EA can engage one group, while nearish another and the other group will just ignore the fight.

Cloak of Darkness' stealth did in fact suppress.

I currently do not have a functional Dark armor toon to test it though, so I admit I may be out of date information wise.


When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...


BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Test_Rat View Post
I mean Stealth. Not any other effect.

I am quite certain an EA can engage one group, while nearish another and the other group will just ignore the fight.

Cloak of Darkness' stealth did in fact suppress.

I currently do not have a functional Dark armor toon to test it though, so I admit I may be out of date information wise.
It doesn't suppress, and to my knowledge (admittedly, I started in i7) never has. If you want you can go poke around at the link - City of Data lists the conditions that the powers suppress under, and both Energy Cloak and Cloak of Darkness have the same conditions. Now, Gauntlet will prevent the stealth from being useful at all, so the part about Tankers was mostly just being snarky. However a Scrapper or Brute running Cloak of Darkness will have the same ability to minimize their own personal aggro that a Brute running Energy Cloak has.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brillig View Post
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siolfir View Post
It doesn't suppress, and to my knowledge (admittedly, I started in i7) never has. If you want you can go poke around at the link - City of Data lists the conditions that the powers suppress under, and both Energy Cloak and Cloak of Darkness have the same conditions. Now, Gauntlet will prevent the stealth from being useful at all, so the part about Tankers was mostly just being snarky. However a Scrapper or Brute running Cloak of Darkness will have the same ability to minimize their own personal aggro that a Brute running Energy Cloak has.
Either way, that makes two Non stalkers sets that have the combat stealth thing.

Why doesn't Hide have combat stealth?


When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...


BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!