End of Cottage Rule? Please?


Aett_Thorn

 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Dark Miasma? That'll never get proliferated with all that control. *REMOVE* either the ST hold or the cone Fear. Keep the cone Fear's -ToHit, just take away all that fear. And not sure why anyone would think an auto-hit AoE stun + PBAoE rez could fly on a Controller. Get *RID* of it and either turn it into a ST stun + PBAoE rez, or just a ST rez.
Just to check, are you saying make changes to the existing sets (defender, corrupter and MM) so that Dark Miasma is something that can be proliferated to Controllers? Or to just make a Controllers version that has those changes?


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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
I can just as clearly see a forum poster that just can't 'not be right.'
So stop being that way.


 

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Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed View Post
Just to check, are you saying make changes to the existing sets (defender, corrupter and MM) so that Dark Miasma is something that can be proliferated to Controllers? Or to just make a Controllers version that has those changes?
I think Leo was giving the Sarcasm Detector a workout.


 

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The only time I remember this 'cottage rule' being broken was when Energize was added to Electric Armor.


 

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Originally Posted by Clouded View Post
The only time I remember this 'cottage rule' being broken was when Energize was added to Electric Armor.
And that wasn't breaking it, either, since the core function of the power remained. The power had an effect added to it, but the EndRed function of the power remained.


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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
And that wasn't breaking it, either, since the core function of the power remained. The power had an effect added to it, but the EndRed function of the power remained.
I guess you are technically right. In my opinion, the Core Function of that power is now the Heal/Regen, not the endurance benefit.


 

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Originally Posted by Clouded View Post
I guess you are technically right. In my opinion, the Core Function of that power is now the Heal/Regen, not the endurance benefit.
Well, the point more was that the power still does what it used to do. It might do something else better now, but it retained it's core purpose from before.

For instance, several "attacks" that used to be more about the secondary feature, such as stun or KB, have had a heap of damage added to them. Before, they used to be about the mez, but now they're more about the damage. However, the mez is still there. As such, slotting for it could remain the same, if you wanted it to.

Adding or increasing effects doesn't break the "cottage rule." If you were to turn a stun into a hold, however, that would.


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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
For instance, several "attacks" that used to be more about the secondary feature, such as stun or KB, have had a heap of damage added to them. Before, they used to be about the mez, but now they're more about the damage. However, the mez is still there. As such, slotting for it could remain the same, if you wanted it to.
Another good example is Siphon Life for Dark Melee. It used to be a weak attack that did a moderate heal. As such, it was mostly slotted as a heal, if at all.

They changed it by adding a heap of damage to it, which turned it into a viable part of an attack chain. Indeed, it's one of the best DPA attacks in the set now. Most people changed their slotting to accommodate the increased damage, but the heal was still there and could still be slotted just as before.


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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
I propose a 7 year rule: if it's been 7 years and you haven't found a way to fix it, burn down the cottage and rebuild.
So I have to wait till next year for them to really fix Stalkers?

/hides


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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Spine players don't want to be crippled in ST damage just because they have AoE. You're harming every Spines player that needs to fight EBs and AVs (heck, even just purple Bosses) by keeping that toggle damage aura. And even the devs have outright admitted they don't look forward to balancing Spines because the backlash from players would be devastating.
****! No one told me I was a cripple! I alleviate my single target impediment by fighting more than one purple boss or EB at a time. Considering the game is not balanced to be able to solo AV's, I will hold my head up shamelessly if I need some help to take one out.


 

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Originally Posted by Clouded View Post
I guess you are technically right. In my opinion, the Core Function of that power is now the Heal/Regen, not the endurance benefit.
The reason for the "primary purpose" rule is to ensure that players that were using it for a reason that was consistent with its original design intent are allowed to continue using it for that purpose, within limits. We can't prevent *all* changes which remove a feature the players use, because players use all features. But we can try to make sure that, for example, if players are using a power for its endurance management capabilities and it was obviously originally designed to be an endurance management power that power retains that endurance management capability even if additional features are added, so those players are impacted as little as possible. Its best aspect might change, but players using it for its original feature could continue to use it as such, and gain a potentially better one. Removing that feature to add a "better" one presumes all the players that were using the original feature will agree the new one is a better one. In general, that's a dangerous assumption.

And important to note: in an MMO no one has a legitimate expectation for power *strength* or *numbers* to remain identical over time. So when Cobra Strike was changed from 100% stun to 75% stun and its recharge cut in half, it still had a lot of stun capability: more than before, in fact. But it lost the ability to provide a guaranteed stun on first use. That's a grey area change: you could argue that the original intended purpose of the power was to deliver a *guaranteed* stun and it lost that ability, and some players did in fact complain about it. But it retained its stunning ability at high percentage, gained the ability to deliver more stun over time, and addressed an actual balance concern within the set - namely that its lower tier powers traded an entire attack in favor of a mez which was hampering lower level performance: MA was stunning what everyone else was killing. You could say it was not a real "cottage rule" violation or you could argue it was a legitimate exception to the cottage rule, but the truth is that it was a grey area change that the devs felt was justified within the context of the general rules to balance justified changes with preserving existing powerset experience.

This design aesthetic extends beyond power numbers. It was easier to tweak the stun in Cobra than it would be to cut the cast time of Eagle's Claw in half. Because the devs know that a *large* percentage of MA players really like that animation. That knowledge tempers any attempt to radically alter its total animation time (it was tweaked from 3.0s to 2.53s, shaving frames here and there, to try to retain its appearance while reducing its total cast time).


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Originally Posted by Zem View Post
So I have to wait till next year for them to really fix Stalkers?

/hides
Stalkers have been buffed, and buffed, and buffed, and buffed, etc...

Having loads of fun with a KM/EA stalker at the moment. EA is not as bad as I thought it would be either - we'll see what happens with the new changes coming to it that was just announced.


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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
I've put this out there before but this may bear repeating.

My version of Dimension Shift, assuming we're stuck with it:

The power is changed to emulate elements of Oil Slick Arrow. It summons an invincible, unmoveable psuedo-pet. This pet lasts 30 seconds. It has a 25ft radius aura of intangibility and immobilize. Anything that enters the area gets shifted.

To end the power early, kill or dismiss the pet.

This version is more useful for a few reasons. Firstly, the inability to dismiss the effect when desired is a serious issue that current tech can't solve. Secondly, Gravity is a set that specializes in knockback and teleports. Want something trapped in the sphere that currently isn't? Wormhole it or knock it inside.
Hm, you may be onto something here. So long as we're discussing phase powers...

Dimension Shift and Black Hole are the only ones I have issue with, really. Detention Field and Sonic Cage, being only ST and recharging quickly enough to be made easily perma, make them (for me) a lot more useful. Taking your suggestion and some other points in this thread, without violating the Cottage Rule;

Make Dimension Shift a PBAoE toggle - not sure if it should affect the player and/or friendly targets, though this would be handy if the "attack phased enemies while phased" functionality does indeed exist in PvE. You could even add "friendly phasing" to Null's list of functions.

For Black Hole, I think the placed pet seems more appropriate - it's a shame there isn't an anti-repel ability to suck enemies into the power. Another thought could be to make it work similarly to Wormhole, but replace the Stun with Intangibility.

Also, JayboH & Memphis_Bill - why so serious?

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Repulse for Stalkers has been replaced by Disrupt, a stun aura.
Interesting...[/Edit]


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Originally Posted by JayboH View Post
Stalkers have been buffed, and buffed, and buffed, and buffed, etc...
It's what they seem to NOT want to do with Stalkers that is the problem. There should be no question that among all melee ATs, Stalkers ought to be the kings of damage. Else why be the least survivable among them? But for various reasons, no one looks to Stalkers first for damage dealing. AoE is a big part for most of them, but they've also been very cagey about boosting melee damage output to rival Scrappers. A Stalker surrounded by enough teammates and whose Assassin Strike is not interrupted *might* beat a Scrapper against a single target... but it's iffy. And it really shouldn't be, because there's no question who is tougher to kill. None at all.

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Having loads of fun with a KM/EA stalker at the moment. EA is not as bad as I thought it would be either - we'll see what happens with the new changes coming to it that was just announced.
And so do I but part of that fun is doing well on teams *despite* the AT's shortcomings. One thing that would go a long way to improving the AT is finding a way to add back that PBAoE attack that many of the legacy primary sets lost when ported from Scrapper to Stalker.


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Honestly, the problem with the cottage rule as far as players are concerned is that what's good for one player is phenomenally terrible for the next. Balance is a gray area that has different definitions for every person, and the cottage rule only seeks to make it so that people can use it as a goto argument for any given situation. The ur example is obviously Black Hole and Dimension Shift, they should never change (or change so little) because the cottage rule dictates it be so. Yes, the powers are altogether questionable in use and yes they can be changed to maintain original purpose while becoming more useful, but the problems there aren't simply with the powers, but with their place in the set as a whole. Gravity is seen as a mediocre set, with dimension shift as a knock against it, while Black Hole arguably seems out of place with Dark Miasma.

In lieu of this, I'd like to give an example of a power that I feel needs to have the cottage rule broken to allow a full length change for the good of the set. I will use the format provided earlier in the thread.


Power: Granite Armor
Set: Stone Armor
AT(s) affected: Tankers, Brutes
What is wrong with the power: Granite Armor as a whole invalidates the vast majority of the rest of the set. It is one of the true god mode powers that allows near invulnerability for most as long as it's on, but prevents active use of over half the set on top of weakening the user beyond little more then a taunt bot. Balance wise, this limits choice rather then promotes it: creating a situation where the only legitimate time to not use granite armor is when you need purple rocks (Minerals) or you would be otherwise fine without toggles in general. One could argue that you could keep it off when you simply wish to do damage, but Granite Armor in general doesn't have the true choice that virtually all other T9s have.
Why an adjustment cannot fix it, so it needs replacing: Adjusting it to make it so that all toggles can run and supplement granite armor simply makes it a T9 toggle that removes any and all flavor it originally had, essentially destroying the original intent of Granite Armor (a mode you enter).
What my fix would be: Make Granite Armor into a Dual Pistols Ammo clone, where you can shift what type of Stone you're currently focused on, creating choice and allowing the user to shift as need be. The types of rock would be "Crystal, Granite, Gems" and a visual appearance (toggleable by Null the Gull) would cover the user. The user would also be allowed to utilize all toggles in question.
Granite Armor would then perform as follows:
While in Perfect Crystal Form, Defense is increased dramatically and Damage is given a slight boost.
While in Perfect Granite Form, Resistance is increased dramatically and Regen is given a slight boost.
While in Perfect Gem Form, Resistance and Defense are increased equally and Recharge/Speed is given a slight boost and/or user becomes immune to Rooted's root.

The problem in the aforementioned example is that many people like and appreciate Granite Armor BECAUSE it's a no effort god mode. While the above change could make it so that while in form, defenses are close to original Granite Armor, the change still promotes choice and utilizes the rest of the set at the same time, creating a much more interesting and unique power set, while retaining the uniqueness of Granite Armor as a T9. It's because of the cottage rule that the above example would never be considered (Nobody complains about Granite Armor, it's OP, etc etc), and while the devs can choose to ignore it at absolutely any time they want, players will often times actively try to squelch a change simply because of the cottage rule; regardless of its merits.

Something to realize is that the devs have not and will never be bound by the cottage rule; if they felt like it, they could change every power set on a whim for no rhyme or reason. As it stands, the cottage rule is merely a belief that the player base has as a whole that persists and promotes a lack of change or even consideration of good ideas by many individuals, and that mindset needs to go away immediately.

Energy Aura's dramatic change (adding a taunt aura which also gives scaling recharge) is a great step in the right direction, since Entropic Aura sure as heck didn't do that before, and now Energy Auras are FORCED to taunt as opposed to having it linked to Energy Drain. This is a big change and could easily and arguably be heralded as an example of the cottage rule being shattered once and for all, but people are stubborn creatures, and I imagine someone will find a way to justify it as still obeying the cottage rule.


 

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Well, the main problem with that idea is you want to fundamentally change a stalker's role. Lots of people play Stalkers like a Scrapper but to want to give them more AOEs might not be the best idea considering how much squishier they are in comparison.


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Posted

As someone who has a Granite Armor tank, I can understand you're thinking. But personally, if I don't need to be in Granite armor I tend to run the tank outside of Granite. Stone could use some tweaks, but I think your proposal is more complicated then it needs to be.


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Originally Posted by Zem View Post
It's what they seem to NOT want to do with Stalkers that is the problem. There should be no question that among all melee ATs, Stalkers ought to be the kings of damage. Else why be the least survivable among them? But for various reasons, no one looks to Stalkers first for damage dealing. AoE is a big part for most of them, but they've also been very cagey about boosting melee damage output to rival Scrappers. A Stalker surrounded by enough teammates and whose Assassin Strike is not interrupted *might* beat a Scrapper against a single target... but it's iffy. And it really shouldn't be, because there's no question who is tougher to kill. None at all.
Yep, the stalker. (Yes, I'm kidding.)

For quite some time, the Stalker was generally considered the villainside sorta-equivalent of the blaster. Damage in exchange for squishiness. Blasters get snipe (the old "range as defense,) among other things - but then again, they also get some pretty hefty melee attacks, as well. (Can't always say AOEs, really, though they're rarely hurting in that department.)

The stalker's issue *does* seem to be the single-target focus, really. Yeah, I can really knock down a single foe's health... meanwhile, the fire/claws brute has turned the rest of the group into ground chuck (and dave and sarah.)

Part of it *may* have been a PVP focus for the AT. Not having designed it, I don't know.

I like playing Stalkers - but there are so few places where their abilities are really allowed to shine. Stealth? OK. Skip all the fighting in the middle and PL yourself through newspaper missions... which doesn't help in other situations. (Or we get some rather blatant catering such as the bunkers in Keyes - "HELLO, you MAY want someone who can SNEAK IN THE SIDE DOOR! I WONDER WHO THAT COULD BE?" Ugh.)

I do think Stalkers need... *something.* They've gotten some decent buffs and adjustments, yes. I'm not sure AOEs are "it," but I wouldn't turn them down. Something that makes them more wanted on a team, like debuffs (aside from the chance to terrorize on a non-lethal AS) might help.

Edit: Hmm. instead of Melee Blasters, think more Melee Corruptor. Each set has some secondary effect *anyway.* Increase that effect, put it in an AOE radius - of course, stalker survivability is still in question there. But it's adding value in a team situation.


 

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Originally Posted by Zem View Post
It's what they seem to NOT want to do with Stalkers that is the problem. There should be no question that among all melee ATs, Stalkers ought to be the kings of damage. Else why be the least survivable among them? But for various reasons, no one looks to Stalkers first for damage dealing. AoE is a big part for most of them, but they've also been very cagey about boosting melee damage output to rival Scrappers. A Stalker surrounded by enough teammates and whose Assassin Strike is not interrupted *might* beat a Scrapper against a single target... but it's iffy. And it really shouldn't be, because there's no question who is tougher to kill. None at all.

I agree with this comment 100%. I also think Stalkers were seriously hurt in PVE by the proliferation of invisibility via Super Speed + a stealth IO, which originally part of the justification for their weaknesses.

The reason I suggested adding -Regen and possibly also -Healing to Stalkers was specifically to make them as desirable as /Rads and /Colds are for dealing with a single hard target. I think killing a hard target is something this AT should be sought after for.

I also think it would be extremely interesting if Stalkers had an ability to temporarily disrupt Purple Triangles or deactivate/punch through godmode armors. For example, an ability that lowered the resistance cap or having their version of Build Up include a proc of unresistable damage.


 

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Originally Posted by JayboH View Post
Well, the main problem with that idea is you want to fundamentally change a stalker's role. Lots of people play Stalkers like a Scrapper but to want to give them more AOEs might not be the best idea considering how much squishier they are in comparison.
Stalker Elec Melee proves that wrong in a big way. It's a fantastic set on Stalkers who want to deal AoE damage. Truth is that Stalkers have enough survivability to hang out in melee and scrap just fine. On a team they shouldn't be the focus of all the aggro anyway. They are not going to win aggro against Tanks and Brutes nor against Scrappers who have taunt auras. Anyway, I don't see this as "playing like a scrapper". EVERYBODY scraps, if by "scraps" we simply mean running your attack chain instead of... running away.

Not to stray too far off topic though. I suppose where this intersects the cottage rule is in how they go about getting more AoE. Do you replace a power? If I take away Thunder Kick and put in Dragon's Tail am I violating the Cottage Rule? I didn't change Thunder Kick but from the perspective of anyone who has that power, the power effectively did change from one thing into something entirely different.

Then again, it's amusing to think about how many people could possibly be upset when Stalkers are to begin with one of the smallest subsets of the playerbase in existence. Then the subset of those actually playing Martial Arts (perhaps one of the least favored primaries among Stalkers). Then the subset of those who actually took Thunder Kick in their build. We might be looking at an angry mob of... three people? I say pull the trigger.


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Originally Posted by Zem View Post
Not to stray too far off topic though. I suppose where this intersects the cottage rule is in how they go about getting more AoE. Do you replace a power? If I take away Thunder Kick and put in Dragon's Tail am I violating the Cottage Rule? I didn't change Thunder Kick but from the perspective of anyone who has that power, the power effectively did change from one thing into something entirely different.
Usually when someone looks at doing this, they consider taking one of the Stalker Trinity and making it inherent - the AS (rarely, but a slottable inherent isn't unheard of - see Kheldians and their travel powers for AT-specific ones, or Inherent Fitness,) Placate or Hide.

Of them, the most sensible one is Placate - there's no set that goes in it, and unlike hide, it's in the attack set. Drop the recharge down some, make it inherent and use the resulting power pick at 12 to add something else (or reshuffle powers.) The biggest issue a direct "drop-in" power has there is that it's going to (a) require a respec to get, and (b) the stalker now has to rebuild more dramatically, and depending on what's done, it may require more slot shuffling than inherent fitness (for example.) It could have a much greater impact on builds.


 

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Originally Posted by Kenteko View Post
Something to realize is that the devs have not and will never be bound by the cottage rule; if they felt like it, they could change every power set on a whim for no rhyme or reason.
If the devs were a hive mind, maybe. But lets say Synapse wanted to change a power on a whim for no rhyme or reason and that would radically alter the way the power functioned. Black Scorpion would have something to say about it as the de factor head of the powers team (technically, lead designer for the live and end game strike team). Q&A would have some say in it. Positron might even have a say in it. Synapse doesn't work in a vacuum, and is ultimately answerable to other people. They give him a certain amount of discretion to apply his own design aesthetics to the powers he works on, but that discretion has limits and wild whimsical cottage rule-like violations would almost certainly be over the limit.

Conversely, if Black Scorpion wanted to whiimsically change a bunch of powers for no reason, he could order Synapse to make those changes or he could try to make them himself, and exercise his authority to make those changes over the objections of Positron, Synpase, the rest of the powers team, the QA team, the receptionist, the mailroom guy, and Zwillinger's pet goldfish. But if he does, what happens next is that soon afterward he isn't the powers lead anymore, because he's incapable of working within a team.

Every MMO development team is different, but Paragon Studios tends to be, as far as I've seen, more collaborative than not, more distributed in authority than not. Devs have a lot of discretion to do things their own way on the one hand, but have an obligation to justify those decisions to other developers on the other hand. The cottage rule isn't a rule in a book somewhere, and its not something War Witch enforces with the cottage police. Its not a rule that *restricts* what the devs do at all, its a rule that *describes* what they collectively believe. To eliminate that set of values, all you have to do is convince each and every dev, or at least more than half of them, to simultaneously change their values, just because you say so.

That would be a significant challenge, to put it mildly.


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Originally Posted by Zem View Post
Stalker Elec Melee proves that wrong in a big way. It's a fantastic set on Stalkers who want to deal AoE damage.
Ah, but I was answering as a whole, to give them a bunch of AOEs is not the best idea - and lightning rod is a very safe power, throwing mobs down upon strike.


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Originally Posted by JayboH View Post
Ah, but I was answering as a whole, to give them a bunch of AOEs is not the best idea - and lightning rod is a very safe power, throwing mobs down upon strike.
So what the heck were the devs thinking letting stalkers have spines. They're just walking vengeance/fallout bait, since they die as soon as they attack and their only means of survival is negated by spines special.


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