End of Cottage Rule? Please?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-07-03 15:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Oh, man; where to begin, here. Not saying I disagree with your point, but dude, this was extremely painful to read. Was it really necessary to interject with a counter argument inbetween every sentence? I had to reply though, after seeing the build for that Stalker. Someone should've gave that player a hug, and a full set of Gladiator's Armor, on general principle.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Um. You do know that the Cottage rule is not about this?
There is nothing in the Cottage rule that says the devs cannot repair broken powers. So... the rules don't matter? Yep. There have been several times when developers have outright stated that a power is working as intended. Woah. Hold Up. You need to explain here why the Cottage Rule is passing the buck. Were you not around when the developers tried changing out powers... you know... "crappy, sucky powers that nobody liked" type of thing with wholesale deletion? Are you aware that their attempts to delete and replace powers are why all the Patron / Ancillary powerpools are now FIVE choices instead of four choices? Fact is, the player-base revolted. Um. Okay? What does a law of nature have to do with a video game? I mean, City of Heroes isn't exactly an Orange sitting on a tree? Woah Woah Woah Woah Whoah Woah. Did you seriously, without joking, just say that the developers should have put an attack:
I'm sorry, you just completely ruined what-ever credibility you thought you had. I can't take you seriously after that statement. The simple fact is this: By placing the Assassin's Attack at level 6 all stalkers are forced to accept at least one... ONE attack outside of the Assassin's attack. Why is that such a big deal? Tell me you don't remember the days of seeing builds like ... this one... running around.    Now imagine if I was a new player who did that with Assassin's Attack as my primary power choice. Um. Masterminds get pets at level 1.  Wow. Just. Wow. *edit* Before I get a "oh but it used to be like that" type of response... I went over to Paragonwiki and checked the history on the Mastermind page, specifically the 2005 post by Man with the Plan: http://paragonwiki.com/w/index.php?t...nd&oldid=82746 So even back when the game first launched... 00:24, 3 November 2005 ... Mastermind's were able to select their first pet power at level 1. *edit* Second edit. The thought occurred to me that maybe the poster I just spent this post ripping apart was somehow trying to compare the obtention of Mastermind's pet to the obtention of a Stalker's Assassin's Attack. If that was the poster's intent... well. I don't think it changes anything else typed here. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/asinine 1. See foolish. Okay. You got this badly backwards. I'm sorry, but, you don't know what you are talking about here, and I'm going to be blunt. Maybe I can put this terms you can understand. U B3 T3H asinine 1 H3R3 M473. Um. No. These haven't been fixed because these are not BROKEN. For starters, you clearly do not know what you are talking about with Masterminds. You didn't even BOTHER to log into the game and check to see if what you were typing was even accurate. Given that one of your primary examples was based on... I have no idea what... it does not leave me convinced that I can explain to you why stalkers can get 3 other damaging attacks before the Assassin's Attack. *edit* Okay, accepting for a second that your original intent was to say that Stalkers should have gotten their signature attack at the same time Mastermind's get their signature pet ... this is... well. Just as senseless. Maybe I can try and break this down very simply. The developers intended design is that all players will have at least one single quick recharging attack in their power-sets... no matter how the player designs their archtype. This ensures that on some level a player will be able to participate in combat. If the developers did what you wanted, it would be possible to create a stalker that would have nothing but the assassin's attack... and would be completely useless except when hidden and using that attack. Mastermind's get a semi-pass on this with their pets. It is possible to take a Mastermind to level 50 without taking any of the three native attacks. However, this is why the first tier of Mastermind pets are combat pets. The minion pets still fill the combat role of giving the Mastermind something to attack with. On some level both the developers and the players have to accept that Mastermind's are a bit more complex than other archtypes, and thus have different requirements to play. This design acceptence is one of the reasons Mastermind's are being placed behind a pay-wall for CoH: Freedom. |
Lulz aside, to the poster that said Stalkers should get Assassin's Strike at level 1: Maybe that would be necessary if the automatic critical hit from assassination didn't function with nearly every power in the Stalker primary; fortunately, that's not the case. The way Masterminds don't start out with six Pets, the way the Tanker doesn't reach the pinnacle of aggro management before Taunt--these are closely related.
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To be clear Jay, you and every other player that wants to remove the cottage rule so you can run about making your Bloody Tank Mages and have the absolutely most perfect character ever with no flaws... Need to go find a different Game. We won't let you pull that stunt with our game. |
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| We.... our game |
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| Me.... my game |
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| ME ME ME ME ME!!!! IT'S ALL ABOUT ME. LIKE WHAT I LIKE OR GTFO. |
Posting in a locked thead.
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Really? You think a ton of people would get up in arms because the devs decided to change a power that nobody even takes anyways? "Oh no, don't change Dimensional Shift! It's bad enough they changed the Sonic graphics to not cause severe migraines after years of complaints, NOW how will I grief my teammates!?"|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I don't agree that changing it from a mez would only be opposed by a vocal minority.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I COMPLETELY disagree that the devs should take up the rule that they can arbitrarily change any power into basically any other random power for any random reason. I truly hope I misunderstood you (and others) and that's NOT really what you're advocating. Cause that would be full of EPIC FAIL.
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I didn't read his post as that. But regardless, I think when it comes to making changes to powers you have to look at their basic intent and not their particular methods of delivering that intent.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I think you and bill are saying the same thing. For the two powers he mentions, YES suggestions WERE actually made to change them from being AOE controls into something 180 degrees different. I and many others DON'T agree with that.
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If a power is meant to provide damage, then revising/replacing it with something that also does damage is okay.
Changing it so that it's now a heal or a control or a defense shield, should not be okay.
To me, that's the 'cottage rule'.
That said, powers like Dim Shift, Black Hole, sonic cage, and detention field could (and should) be replaced by new powers that have the same intent (AoE or ST control) and nobody would get upset. If the intent of those powers is to take a target or targets out of a fight so they cannot fight back, then any sort of control that does the same without making the target intangible would be an adequate (and superior) replacement. For instance, if sonic and FF had a hold instead of the cage nobody would complain. If Dim Shift and BH were replaced with a long duration knockdown (for example), nobody would be upset.
Seriously, is there anyone out there that prefers making a target intangible to hard controlling it for the same duration?
Please buff Ice Control.
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There is a reason we have FIVE powers in some PPPs and APPs. At one time the devs DID try to completely change some powers. It was the whining from the "vocal minority" that changed their minds and added the changes as new powers. I recall that it was around the time of I13 beta.|
Originally Posted by Not_Rhino
Really? You think a ton of people would get up in arms because the devs decided to change a power that nobody even takes anyways? "Oh no, don't change Dimensional Shift! It's bad enough they changed the Sonic graphics to not cause severe migraines after years of complaints, NOW how will I grief my teammates!?"
Good thing that's not what I said then. I did not say "random reason" and I think you definitely did misunderstand that. But if people have any faith in the devs, there should be no need for some "rule" that tells them what they can do with existing powers. I have enough faith in them to know that they wouldn't completely change an existing power unless it was truly in need of change, and I wouldn't call that random or arbitrary. |
Not to mention that I13 completely changed how pvp functions. And seeing as how there is nearly a non existent pvp pop, I'd say the changes were bad. The devs aren't infallible.
Yeah I have faith in the devs. But not blind faith.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Well explained. Actually I would rather they be chagned from AOE to AOE. I would be HIHGLY annoyed if shift and bh were changed to knockdowns.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
I didn't read his post as that. But regardless, I think when it comes to making changes to powers you have to look at their basic intent and not their particular methods of delivering that intent.
If a power is meant to provide damage, then revising/replacing it with something that also does damage is okay. Changing it so that it's now a heal or a control or a defense shield, should not be okay. To me, that's the 'cottage rule'. That said, powers like Dim Shift, Black Hole, sonic cage, and detention field could (and should) be replaced by new powers that have the same intent (AoE or ST control) and nobody would get upset. If the intent of those powers is to take a target or targets out of a fight so they cannot fight back, then any sort of control that does the same without making the target intangible would be an adequate (and superior) replacement. For instance, if sonic and FF had a hold instead of the cage nobody would complain. If Dim Shift and BH were replaced with a long duration knockdown (for example), nobody would be upset. Seriously, is there anyone out there that prefers making a target intangible to hard controlling it for the same duration? |
As you said as long as the AOE is kept as an AOE, hold kept as hold, damage kept as damage, I have no issue. And that is the cottage rule in VERY simplified form.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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BS, the Stalker is built around AS, just as the Air Force Warthog is built around the GAU-8 Avenger. It would be ludicrous for the air force to tell it's Warthog pilots, that they cannot turn on their main weapon until they gain some experience, and it's ludicrous to tell the Stalker the same thing. |
Originally Posted by GI Justice
Lulz aside, to the poster that said Stalkers should get Assassin's Strike at level 1: Maybe that would be necessary if the automatic critical hit from assassination didn't function with nearly every power in the Stalker primary; fortunately, that's not the case. The way Masterminds don't start out with six Pets, the way the Tanker doesn't reach the pinnacle of aggro management before Taunt--these are closely related.
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My ability to take out a level 0 minion with a normal attack while hidden, ends at the end of level 3 (Except Broadsword.). From then on until I get AS I'm going to get hammered by every MOB in the group, and if I use my biggest hitter, which is also my slowest power, out of hide, I'm going to get hammered before my power completes. More than likely every MOB in the group will have the opportunity to hit me at least twice before I take out my original target.
Now you bump that up to +1s and Murphy steps in, I can be face planted, before I know what happens. This is only 2 levels, but it's 2 painful levels, unless you group and let the group cover your butt.
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...Uh. It's not exactly that painful. I very recently played a Stalker through Praetorian missions from levels 1 to 10, completely solo, at +0/x1. (Then I decided to reroll the KM/Nin as KM/NRG due to upcoming buff news and a theme that occurred to me would fit better.) Not really that difficult, and I was severely delaying taking my shields in favor of fuller attack chains. Yeah, the occasional constant ambush waves sometimes caused some problems, but I suspect they would for a lot of ATs regardless.|
Originally Posted by Jeuraud
BS, the Stalker is built around AS, just as the Air Force Warthog is built around the GAU-8 Avenger. It would be ludicrous for the air force to tell it's Warthog pilots, that they cannot turn on their main weapon until they gain some experience, and it's ludicrous to tell the Stalker the same thing.
My ability to take out a level 0 minion with a normal attack while hidden, ends at the end of level 3 (Except Broadsword.). From then on until I get AS I'm going to get hammered by every MOB in the group, and if I use my biggest hitter, which is also my slowest power, out of hide, I'm going to get hammered before my power completes. More than likely every MOB in the group will have the opportunity to hit me at least twice before I take out my original target. Now you bump that up to +1s and Murphy steps in, I can be face planted, before I know what happens. This is only 2 levels, but it's 2 painful levels, unless you group and let the group cover your butt. |
You're really overstating Stalkers' reliance on Assassin's Strike. It's a very useful tool especially at lower levels, but there're stalkers for who it slowly falls out of favor at higher levels. Often opening with an AoE can be a better option. Stalkers get the auto-critical from hide inherent from level 1, and it's very helpful throughout all their levels. That is the truly essential weapon for Stalkers.
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... you mean like pilot training, and training in their specific aircraft's systems and the like?|
Originally Posted by Jeuraud
BS, the Stalker is built around AS, just as the Air Force Warthog is built around the GAU-8 Avenger. It would be ludicrous for the air force to tell it's Warthog pilots, that they cannot turn on their main weapon until they gain some experience,
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Yeah. Silly requirement for the air force to have.
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Bad analogy and incorrect analysis, but whatever. The Stalker is built around Hide not AS. AS is an annoyance. An attack that creates the illusion of superior damage, that usually costs the character it's ability to deliver AoE severely hampering it's ability to perform in situations that involve many enemies. Added to that is the lower damage mod due to the rightful fear that too much damage could be harmful to AT balance. (same issue exists with blasters) The long wind-up hampers repeate usage and hurts the damage output of an AT that's supposed to lose survivibility and gain damage.|
Originally Posted by Jeuraud
BS, the Stalker is built around AS, just as the Air Force Warthog is built around the GAU-8 Avenger.
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Hide usually trades the utility of one power for the ability to stealth and the hidden status. This is the basis of the stalker, and what the AT is built around.
My guess is, that when stalkers were introduced, the old dev team still had their ideas on how combat was supposed to play out. The thought being that the game wasn't so AoE centric, and it was a fair trade to lose the PBAoE attack for an initial burst of single target damage after a bit of prepared downtime. However, in team situations there is a great deal of AoE, and the ability to provide a large bit of damage after a set-up time isn't as valuable.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Indeed, there're reasons why AS tends to get superseded later on by AoE attacks out of hiding on those powersets capable of it--even at a mere 50% chance of crit.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
My guess is, that when stalkers were introduced, the old dev team still had their ideas on how combat was supposed to play out. The thought being that the game wasn't so AoE centric, and it was a fair trade to lose the PBAoE attack for an initial burst of single target damage after a bit of prepared downtime. However, in team situations there is a great deal of AoE, and the ability to provide a large bit of damage after a set-up time isn't as valuable.
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Sigh, this is just ludicrous. You should not have to spend 10 years as a Aviation Electrician, USN; to know that you do not get trained in your weapon systems while in combat. That is exactly what you are suggesting, with this comment.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... you mean like pilot training, and training in their specific aircraft's systems and the like?
Yeah. Silly requirement for the air force to have. |
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
but whatever. The Stalker is built around Hide not AS.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
AS is an annoyance. An attack that creates the illusion of superior damage, that usually costs the character it's ability to deliver AoE severely hampering it's ability to perform in situations that involve many enemies.
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The Stalker was not built to do AoE, that is fact. There are 2 sets that have no AoE's. Only 3 sets have PBAOE's, 1 giving you 100% from hide (The only AoE in it's set.), 1 50%, and 1 only giving you 30%. 3 of the sets have AoE cones that are so tight that calling them AoE's is pushing it. A good share of your AoE is not available until level 26, or 32.
As for it being not that painful, I'm an altiholic, not a masochist. I build new characters all the time. The Stalker is the only AT where I have spent time sitting on my butt waiting on my HP's and my Rest to come back, at level 4 (Hells it's the only AT that I have been face planted at these low levels in ages.) That is if I play it as a Stalker. If I use my vet range attack to initiate attacks, then it's not that big a deal. Any Brute I have built, at this level can jump into the same group, and starting from 0 fury, can 1 shot the last even level minion standing; yet my Stalkers cannot do it from hide. I expect my experience to be equivalent with all ATs, especially at these levels.
What is it with you people. The primary reason that Stalkers give up their AS is because it's broken. It's hard to use in groups. It's fricken slow as all hells. It cant be used in ambushes. Your better off using a short Coned AoE that only has a 50% chance for critical, than to not to be able to get any criticals from hide. That does not mean that a properly working AS would not have been a hells of a lot better tool.
Spirits, I cant believe that people are defending the Stalker AT's right to be broken.
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No, what he was suggesting was that people are trained in a system before they are allowed to use it. He was also arguing a usless point as the analogy is terrible and wrong, thus wasting his time anyway.|
Originally Posted by Jeuraud
Sigh, this is just ludicrous. You should not have to spend 10 years as a Aviation Electrician, USN; to know that you do not get trained in your weapon systems while in combat. That is exactly what you are suggesting, with this comment.
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Originally Posted by Jeuraud
Lol! Saying the Stalker is built around Hide, is like saying the Warthog is built around Flight. These are both tools designed to deliver the payload. Neither the Warthog nor the Stalker are going to do much killing with just these tools.
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The stalker has a specific gameplay intent. The gameplay intent is to attack from a hidden state, gaining extra damage from the suprise attack, and try to either retreat to hidden (lather...rinse...repeate) OR scrap it out and try to kill the remaiders. The gameplay intent is -NOT- to AS the enemies to death. What you're communicating, when you say the set is built around AS, is that the gameplay revolves around AS. That's wrong.
The gameplay revolves around hide. AS is the most exreme form of that gameplay giving even more damage from the Hidden state. It doesn't, however, define the AT's gameplay.
Stalker's are built around hide. That's it.
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Originally Posted by Jeuraud
That you feel that Stalkers should not have given up there ability to deliver AoEs for AS is your opinion. Saying that AS is an annoyance is also your opinion (Though I actually agree with you about AS being annoying.).
The Stalker was not built to do AoE, that is fact. There are 2 sets that have no AoE's. Only 3 sets have PBAOE's, 1 giving you 100% from hide (The only AoE in it's set.), 1 50%, and 1 only giving you 30%. 3 of the sets have AoE cones that are so tight that calling them AoE's is pushing it. A good share of your AoE is not available until level 26, or 32. |
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Originally Posted by Jeuraud
Spirits, I cant believe that people are defending the Stalker AT's right to be broken.
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So with that, there's no EM or Stalker complaints from me for a little while yet.
I do see a glimmer of hope with the KIR. People might not like the fact they can't AoE curbstomp entire groups with AM standing around, but it does show intent to make ST more neccesary in gameplay.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Nah, what makes it a waste of time is that he apparently can't see the area between the extremes - "Get some experience with the aircraft" vs "Spend 10 years as an aviation tech," or, more on topic, "Get rid of the cottage rule" (meaning, bluntly, ANY form of thought into the powers, balancing, consistency and the like) and "Must not even change the spelling of a power or the whips and hot coals come out." Or "Just throw everything away, it'll be OK."|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
No, what he was suggesting was that people are trained in a system before they are allowed to use it. He was also arguing a usless point as the analogy is terrible and wrong, thus wasting his time anyway.
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Which is illustrated in his other comment, a ways back:
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| The Devs actually did fix the Stalker, and they went beyond the cottage rules/guidlelines to do so. They created the Bane. |
(And I'll be honest - I enjoy playing my stalkers *more* than playing my bane - to the point my bane's second build turned into a huntsman instead. That's "fixed" in his opinion? Plus, looking around, I see far more post-24 Huntsmen and Crabs than I do Banes.)
But the thread in general, yes, is a waste of time.
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Oh, I agree completely. I wasn't trying to say you should have complete faith in them. Definitely not. I've always been among the more critical on these forums of some of the things the devs have done or considered doing.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
There is a reason we have FIVE powers in some PPPs and APPs. At one time the devs DID try to completely change some powers. It was the whining from the "vocal minority" that changed their minds and added the changes as new powers. I recall that it was around the time of I13 beta.
Not to mention that I13 completely changed how pvp functions. And seeing as how there is nearly a non existent pvp pop, I'd say the changes were bad. The devs aren't infallible. Yeah I have faith in the devs. But not blind faith. |
I am just saying, as far as power design goes, I'm fine with them having as much leeway as they can get because I trust them not to charge in and completely redesign a power without carefully weighing and considering it. Although not every change they make is necessarily good, (PVP, like you said), I trust that they at least considered it very carefully before doing it. The end result may not always be good, but I think we can be relatively assured that they won't go and exchange something like Foot Stomp for a single target phase shift anytime soon, (though I'd be ecstatic if they did the opposite with Black Hole or Dimensional Shift, lol).
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Yeah, this.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
He was trying to be funny. For what it's worth, I chuckled and I expected people to misunderstand (which made me smile a bit wider).
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
*sighs* I guess I have heard far too many people talk about how their Blaster or Stalker completely sucks, or how they don't want them on their teams, etc. Their needing to exists (survive) through a mission didn't sound all that out of place in that background of whinging.
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I honestly don't think any of the core ATs are crippled. Defining 'crippled' for the purpose of this post as 'being unable to complete solo the content they're expected to complete' or 'being unable to contribute to teams'.
Stalkers are in a weird space design-wise in that they have an awkward purpose that isn't really served by the game content; the way missions are designed, stealth is a difficult thing to balance around. That said, I think the last set of changes did a lot to make stalkers more viable to the typical players (and they were always viable for people with high skill or high investment capacity).
... I still think the kheldians need attention, but that's a different conversation entirely.
(Also, I need to find a new avatar. I set this one a while back because it amused me, but it's raising the incident rate of people calling me 'he'.)
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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And this seems to be, honestly, a baseline some people (and I'm not saying "some people" and glancing sideways at any poster, just a general statement) seem to refuse to take, which makes some conversations rather frustrating. |
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
I honestly don't think any of the core ATs are crippled. Defining 'crippled' for the purpose of this post as 'being unable to complete solo the content they're expected to complete' or 'being unable to contribute to teams'. |
For instance, hearing people complain about a powerset being "too slow." Well, slow compared to what, and what are the tradeoffs that make it "slow?" Not everything's going to be a brute, scrapper or tank - and not everything should be.
I happen to really like control sets. Controllers *and* doms. I know I'm not finishing a full (say) battle maiden map when it comes up in 5 minutes at +4X8, but - that's not my job. I'm making them attack each other. Or I'm paying for that lesser damage by being as close to perfectly safe as I can be while going through that map.
Or there'll be posts saying, "Why bother with a Defender, when a Blaster can tear through this with much more damage?" OK. Yeah, that's what a blaster does. Meanwhile, if I feel like it, I can debuff those targets and /em robotdance in the middle of them without getting hit.
There is no AT that is incapable of soloing, even on TOs (or, as we're commonly told, SOs, which the game is balanced around.) No powerset falls in that category. Some may not "click" with some people - individual powers *or* powersets - but we do have a baseline guarantee that everyone can, if they choose, solo 1-50. It just may not be at the speed they want. In which case... reroll. *shrug*
Besides, if they move that baseline - again, say, damage, since that seems popular - all that'll happen is the enemies will be changed to compensate. We'd end up at pretty much the same spot... if not worse off when things aren't rebalanced properly.
(The flip side, of course, being another suggestion that comes up of "just let us freeform select powers" - that having been done and found (a) impossible to balance and/because (b) players could too easily either create tankmages or be completely useless - as in zero attacks.
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I am not sure if it was the avatar or if it is just my correct tendency to use the masculine pronoun when sex is unknown. I do sometimes use the more incorrect "they", but I try not to. |
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
(Also, I need to find a new avatar. I set this one a while back because it amused me, but it's raising the incident rate of people calling me 'he'.)
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Found yet another reason I'd be annoyed if my sonic cage was changed. Just finished a Sutter that was looking kinda doomy at the end. Primal was TPing all over creation Praet was kabooming the crap out of everyone. It was grim. So I got annoyed, and remembered that Primal teleports so quickly because Praet recharges his power for him. So I get an idea and say, "I'm going to try something". I said that, because people tend to rage when you make enemies untouchable, and wanted to avoid that. Two sonic cages later, primal is down and he TPed maybe once in that time, letting us actually DPS him and keeping everyone from being spread out everywhere wondering where he was.
Only affect self is different from other mez effects, and I love it. There just needs to be more reasons to use it.
If only they'd let it work in KIR.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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I personally prefer to use "they" because I don't like using "he" as both the masculine specific and the generic pronoun.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I am not sure if it was the avatar or if it is just my correct tendency to use the masculine pronoun when sex is unknown. I do sometimes use the more incorrect "they", but I try not to.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I am not sure if it was the avatar or if it is just my correct tendency to use the masculine pronoun when sex is unknown. I do sometimes use the more incorrect "they", but I try not to.
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Originally Posted by Alef_infinity
I personally prefer to use "they" because I don't like using "he" as both the masculine specific and the generic pronoun.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Blech, I can't use 'they' for that. More often than not, it is grammatically incorrect to do so, which bugs me. I will sooner use 'he/she' than 'they.' Also, I assume all in-game characters are the gender of their avatar until told otherwise... and I assume a poster is male unless there is some indicator otherwise (for instance the huntress in Void Huntress)... or a very obviously feminine avatar/signature. If I am wrong and that bugs someone, I further assume they will correct me and I can apologize for my error.|
Originally Posted by Alef_infinity
I personally prefer to use "they" because I don't like using "he" as both the masculine specific and the generic pronoun.
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[Edit]So, in reading the above post... and doing a bit of research, I come to find that 'they' used as a singular pronoun of indeterminate gender is indeed grammatical. I guess this means my High School English teacher was a very firm prescriptivist. Which, I suppose I inherited. It just feels wrong to say. But, then again, I actually use the word 'one' in conversation instead of 'you' when I am speaking generally... so I am weird, one could say.[/Edit]
Quote:
Eh, it's heavily debated and some people despise it when you do it. I teach writing and advise my students to rewrite without the need for the pronoun. That way, you sidestep the debate and no one should hold your preference against you.|
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
They as an indeterminate gender third person singular is absolutely grammatical. Prescriptionists may complain, but it's part of English, and has been for a couple centuries now.
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On the forums, I refer to the poster by their forum name... tends to help you be more clear, too. Forums are big enough breeding pools for angst and misunderstanding without adding to the mix.
And sorry I misunderstood your joke earlier.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
Or you can just use the grammatically correct "he or she," which is what I do when writing papers.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Eh, it's heavily debated and some people despise it when you do it. I teach writing and advise my students to rewrite without the need for the pronoun. That way, you sidestep the debate and no one should hold your preference against you.
On the forums, I refer to the poster by their forum name... tends to help you be more clear, too. Forums are big enough breeding pools for angst and misunderstanding without adding to the mix. And sorry I misunderstood your joke earlier. |
Admittedly, in real life speech, I do tend to say "they," though it isn't technically correct.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory