What's an Incarnate to you?

Preface: I'm not going to be discussing the Incarnate SYSTEM, its rewards, costs, tasks or anything either meta-game or storyline. I'm looking at this from a much broader perspective just to wrap my head around a few concepts.

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With all this talk about demigos recently, I'm sure a lot of us took our existing very powerful characters and tried to make gods out of them. And while I can't speak about other people, I never really got a good idea as to what exactly that abstract concept would mean in general storytelling terms. To some extent, "a really powerful version of your character" does indeed qualify, but literal gods in stories at large seem to have a rather broader scope of abilities than just a very powerful specialisation.

I recall a specific instance in the Hellsing manga that's present in both anime adaptations, where protagonist Alucard fights another vampire, supposedly an incredibly strong, evolved one. And indeed said vampire is incredibly fast, very skilled and manages to shoot Alucard to pieces with a handgun. The protagonist responds to this by pulling himself back together, turning into a monstrous shadow and delivering something like the following line: "Come on! Regenerate, summon your minions, rise up and fight me again!" Much to his surprise, the supposedly powerful vampire doesn't even suspect vampires could do any of that.

Something of this nature takes place in Mender Ramiel's arc, where I'm asked to speak with the Statesman. A normal person would board the train or go via super travel, but instead I teleported to his location, spoke with the Statesman and hopped a portal right back into Ouroboros. More than just being powerful, this gave me an odd sense of breaking the rules, that I could just appear to a signature character, get what I need out of him and simply disappear again.

I suppose what I'm asking is just how much of a breadth of abilities do you feel an Incarnate should posses? For example, say you have a strong fight. A VERY strong fighter. Should an Incarnate version of said fighter be just simply stronger still, or should it have other abilities as well, such as the ability to come back from the dead, travel between dimensions unassisted and know the secrets of the past before the age of gods, just as a random collection?

It occurs to me that, even in fairly simplistic storylines, the stronger, "elite" characters tend to have all the abilities of all the weaker specialists and THEN a speciality on top of that. I've spoken in the past about Incarnate powers making characters too homogeneous, but I'm starting wonder if that wasn't the point, and a good thing besides. If, perhaps, being an Incarnate entails more than just "great" power, and instead supposes "varied" power. All characters being able to do a lot of everything doesn't strike me as odd of a design choice as I first saw it as.

Really, this comes to power level vs. breadth of abilities. How much of which one do you believe makes an "Incarnate?"

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Well, I'd probably say my initial impression of Incarnates is that they're not gods by any sense, rather simply very strong characters.
The examples we often see seem to possess nothing too far out there beyond better stats and some unique powers, such as Lord Recluse, Statesman, Stheno, Hero 1, Reichsman, Imperious, Tyrant, and even the version of ourselves shown in the first mission of Mender Ramiel's Arc.
Of course, it does certainly say something about just what our characters have begun to accomplish themselves so far taking the supposedly 'slow' Incarnate path, we've managed to increase our stats, develop unique (at least from other incarnates) modifications to our standard attack powers, gained a really really powerful nuke power (though that's fairly in line with other incarnates), gained the ability to not just go into a sort of 'super mode' (destiny buffs) ourselves, but something we can even grant to allies around us, and summon pets.
And for the remaining Five levels, who know where we'll go.

For your original comparison, it might be safe to say that the players will become Alucard and Recluse and others will be Valentine (I think that was the dude's name) even though their abilities are still supposedly beyond our own.
Of course, many of the Incarnates mentioned do not possess some of the unique gimmicks of more recent AVs because they're older examples of bosses, and thus feel weaker, in the end, because once you destroy Recluse's towards, get Statesman away from the freedom phalanx, or do whatever to Reichsman, they're just sacks of HP you hit over and over again like any non-incarnate AV.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

A tall order, trying to actually define what an "Incarnate" is since we really do not have a totally set definition in-game.

An Incarnate, as far as my definition goes, is a being that is more powerful (either/both in power or range of abilities) than it's comparable peers. In existing comic universes, the "powerful" examples that come to mind are beings like Galactus, The Flash, or Omega Mutants such as Iceman, and other beings whose abilities are very one-dimensional, but are extremely potent. Some "varied" examples would include Martian Manhunter, Silver Surfer, and Superman (though he could technically fall into both categories). I consider all of the aforementioned characters to be the "top tier" so-to-speak, but obviously their abilities and the magnitude of said abilities can vary from character to character.

I tend to lean toward the "varied" category for what makes an Incarnate. Take Statesman for example: Sure he's super strong and nigh-immortal, but it's that Zeus's Lightning trick that makes him "Incarnate." However, I can definitely understand where incarnate power would be just that: power (and is indeed how I've chosen to build my characters). Someone may prefer to spend their time and resources getting a Tier 4 Cryonic Judgment for their Ice Blaster, rather than working on any other Incarnate powers. Actually, I sort of wish that was how they had implemented it: a character could either dip into a certain Incarnate power (judgment, Destiny, Lore, etc.) and ignore most (not all) others, OR they could be a "jack of all trades, master of none" type. Obviously, things would be different than what we have now, and many would have qualms with that idea, etc. etc. This is off-topic anyway...

My point being is that I think "variety" holds more weight. But that being said, I think there is a very fine line between "Wow, look at all the stuff that character can do, he/she must be very powerful" and an unbelievable number of different types of powers, which is what I believe we have now. So far, my 50s have only dipped into one Incarnate power each (differentiating from one to another), because I find having all those abilities to be totally unrealistic, and very hard to justify. I am a big fan of justification. C'mon, you're going to stand there and tell me that your character:
-Can turn itself into a walking golem
-Can punch people with electricity
-Can shoot fire balls
-Is uber-accurate
-Can launch a blizzard-like blast out of one hand
-Summon the souls of dead Praetorian robots to fight for it
-Greatly Heal everyone in your immediate vicinity and
-Make the majority of your attacks lower your enemies' defenses?

And you can make a believable back story to justify all of that?

Again, in my head (and perhaps only MY head) that is ridiculous, and I don't like to build my characters like that, but I am not knocking anyone who does. Some people just like the powers. How you want to build your Incarnate is your business, I just prefer a worthwhile explanation of it.

Since you are looking for a way to make these powers work for your characters, I'd say "If you can make them make sense, get whatever you can." Personally, I find more joy in staying true to my character's concept and skipping most of the Incarnate abilities, than making that character a really powerful but skewed version of his/her former self. Most comic book characters that take that latter route usually don't end up in a good place...

*wierd looking chic from another dimension looks at me and asks* "Are you a god?" I say, "Yes." :P

From what Prometheus seems to imply in-game, it's actually the reverse of what we used to believe about incarnates. The old "Gods" (such as Zeus) were actually mortals infused with the power of the well, and not what we consider gods at all.

At least, this was the conclusion I came to after chatting at him and making him angry.

When I think Incarnate I think Silver Surfer: Not a God or fundamental aspect of the cosmos, but something that's still far, far above mere mortals.

I also recognize that any game that let you play ol' Norrin to his full potential would be *ludicrously broken*.

I would say that Dr. Manhattan in the Watchmen is essentially an incarnate. He's multiple times more powerful than any other super powered person in that universe, so much so that he's no longer human. (I thought of him because of your Alucard example: "I am very disappoointed, Veidt. Restructuring myself after the substraction of my intrinsic field was the first trick I learned... did you think it would kill me?")

Jean Grey as Phoenix becomes an incarnate, I'd say. ^_^

Probably Sailor Pluto is an incarnate.

That's kind of how I view incarnates: not gods, but far above mortals.

With my own characters, I don't see it as having anything to do with the Well or with the old gods of Primal Earth. They're not human and not Primal natives, so neither really seems to apply to them.

Given their origin (They're a species of non-canon Rularuu; Faathim's creatures-), to me their gaining Incarnate status simply means tapping into more of the strength and the will of their own creator... That's why so many of them have ended up with Barrier and Rebirth.

It also means that Darrin Wade is making progress.
Just not quite in the way he imagined.

As for what the status implies, it's not only added strength. It's also added responsibility. They've always had the mandate of looking after the humans of the Shard, even when those humans migrated to another universe. Now, they seem about to be given an expanded mission... To look after the Primal and Praetorian humans, too.

Lore pets looking like Shard Reflections was actually a Good Thing for my crew. I explain them as exactly that... Reflections pulled across the divide to aid their cause.

I'm with those that are playing loose with the storyline. I see the Well as nothing more than the Power Cosmic or Collective Consciousness or Eternity or whatever you feel fits.

In BZB's case, he's doing nothing but what he's done since level 1. Pulling in and trapping more power from the souls in Hell within his mortal shell.
More recharge from spiritual? Check.
Fire damage from reactive? Fits Hell easily.
Void? Looks Hellish.
Warbots? Ummm, no, that doesn't work. I'll have to change pets or ignore that RP aspect.
Big aoe heal? Sure. Nothing wrong with keeping myself up and killin.

I am not an Incarnate. I'm just a very angry cat fused with a post-grad student through an accident with a super-collider and a thunderstorm.

Unn the Thrown At could be. She died in battle and was taken by the Valkyries to go to Valhalla, where the brave live forever, where she spent the last millennium training for the last battle and having axes thrown at her blond braids by drunk dead vikings.

Fimbulwinter should be. She is after all the embodiment of the Great Winter preceeding Ragnarök, the World-Fire at the End of Time.

For all intensive purposes, my very 1st creation and namesake has always been an Incarnate.

The name Maestro has no connection to music, rather it stands for Master without trying to sound condescending. In short. He is a human that was able to utilize 100% of his mind and subsequently force his own evolution to a higher state. Upon doing so he was raised to another level of reality or higher consciousness. He then decided to return to our realm to save as many souls from The Coming Storm as possible through enlightenment.

Since he is by default a Master of our reality he can technically break the world. He can alter reality anyway he see's fit. However, his morality prevents him from abusing this power. Instead the most 'bending' he does is in the form of materializing costumes or music or various other small time tricks.

He is represented in game as an Energy/Energy blaster. I've never really bothered to RP with him that seriously though. His blasts are simply his power of choice, since he can use any power he wants this is what works best. Allowing him to knockout opponents without serious harm, he can't die so instead TP's to hosp to regroup etc. etc.

So, when I 1st heard about Incarnates I figured he'd be a natural to take down that path. Then I realized, he already was one. In essence his character could use the Judgement powers if he truly wanted without ever touching the well since he is beyond this reality. Mavius has never had a reason to use more power than his blasts or fists and I see no reason to change that now.

An Incarnate to me has more to do with the story than the power. True when you think of a demigod you picture immense levels of power but it could just as easily be someone with immense levels of intellect etc. The reason they have that power is more important. Born that way, trained, enraged, touched by a mystic power. This is more important than being able to punch the Earth into pieces as I feel non Incarnates can reach that level of power. Superman for instance. I don't classify him as an Incarnate.

The reason I started off saying I don't want to talk about the meta-game mechanics or the in-game lore surrounding Incarnates was because both of those are sort of giant cans of worms that tend to side-track discussions and make me yell at my screen For what it's worth, I tend to ignore the "Well of the Furies" and "Origin of Powers" storylines and explain the new-found powers as my characters being just that damn good.

I'm more talking about what kind of skillset a fictional character would need to have to qualify as an Incarnate as our game represents them. And I think in so doing, I thought of another example - Soul Reaver's Raziel. He's able to jump between the world of the living and the world of the dead almost at will, he's functionally immortal, he can swim (unlike other vampires), he can phase through grates, shoot telekinesis, climb, glide, use the Soul Reaver and infuse it with a variety of elements, consume the souls of the dead, travel through time and is somehow immune from pre-determined destiny. He's not a literal god, or even a demigod, but he has a bag of tricks so big that even if he weren't the protagonist of his own game, he'd still have to be a major mover and shaker.

I'm kind of torn between making a character an incredibly powerful specialist, like the dude from Infamous who wields almost godlike powers, but is stopped by chain link fences thanks to how electricity works, and making said character a powerful specialist with a wide array of extra abilities, like the guy from Prototype who can jump, fly, glive, transform, consume, regenerate, climb and form a variety of weapons.

Interestingly and largely unintentionally, I've already done something of the sort to the eponymous Samuel Tow. He started out as just genetically-altered human with very fast reflexes and an unusual sword, but pretty much every time I tell a story about him, he gets a new toy added to the arsenal. One of the first things he got was an inertial projectior which allows him to jump incredibly high and far, change direction in mid-jump and land from practically any without injury. Somewhere along the line he got super-human senses like hearing, smell and eyesight, at times bordering on precognition. He picked up a pair of handguns that get more and more absurd the more I revisit them. He has a techno-suit of the HEV Mark 4 Protective System variety that gets more and more elaborate the more I write about it. And right now I'm in the process of revising his signature cape into something of a hard light protective construct. And all of that is without me even stopping to think what I'd do with his Incarnate powers (haven't played Sam in a few years, he's out of content).

I can certainly see people's reluctance to give up an established concept for the sake of explaining why said character is now able to "call down the thunder" or summon the ghost of a dead Praetorian, however. Some of us are rather a lot more picky about what our characters can do than this, and I'll be the first to admit I had (and still have) a big problem with CoV-side patron power pools, in that they link us a bit too close to Arachnos. Even so, some of them can be sold as doing other thing, if you skip the Arachnos summon. That, actually, is how I generally see my own characters becoming Incarnates - they're what they've always been. They're just getting stronger and developing new tricks.

However, the reason I made this thread is because I began to wonder if I really should be keeping my characters so narrowly focused and just giving them even more absurd levels of power, or if I should look to expanding their abilities so that they are never unprepared. After all, a character who is able to adapt to any situation and respond to it appropriately is just as awesome as a character who is amazingly powerful in one situation but can be rendered helpless in another. In some way, I wonder if raw power is more important, or if never being made powerless isn't the more awesome alternative.

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I actually have an easier, more abstract example to end this with: The dumb hero. Ever noticed how in a lot of games (it's usually games) the hero is a big, strong, fearless, awe-inspiring man... Who is nevertheless dumb as a rock and damn proud of it? He needs a support character (or ten) to think for him, tell him where to go, what to do and how to act, interpret clues for him, unlock doors, decipher codes and look information up for him, all the while he acts like big dumb muscle. In fact, our characters in City of Heroes are often treated like this, when contacts say things like "With my brains and your brawn, we make an excellent team!" Hell, that line in itself is right out of Half-Life, said to Gordon Freeman, a god damn theoretical physicist!

In this sense, it is sometimes bordering on Mary Sue when you create a hero who both has the raw, brutish strength and square jaw of a regular, run-of-the-mill "big dumb hero," but at the same time has the fierce intellect of Gregory House. Usually, big dumb heroes are only held back by problems they aren't smart enough to solve, needing a smart character to solve them instead, but if a hero is strong AND smart... What more can you ask for?

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I'm going to talk about my most Incarnate-powered character, Rushmore.

Rushmore is a Stone/Stone/Earth Tanker. He started off heroing at the age of 16, where on a visit to Mount Rushmore, he came across a mysterious crystal in a box. Picking it up, the Spirit of America gave him the power to fight the villains, crime and disasters that faced her citizens.

After fighting crime in his home state of South Dakota for 2 years, he came to Paragon City in 2007 at the request of a hero to join a training initiative. Over time, his powers have increased, as shown by his progression up in levels.

At level 22 when I upgraded him to SO's, his basic outfit changed to gain a cape, granted to him by the Spirit of America for good deeds and progress. At level 30, when he go Fly (The Iconic power of heroes, IMO) he gained a glowing aura, and his costume gained the addition of armour (Using the GVE Justice Pieces) and his height shot up a bit more.

At level 41, his costume was tweaked a little more. He was given some mastery over American soil, allowing him to summon up pillars and cages of earth, turn the ground to sodden mud to slow his foes, and call up shards of stone to get the attention of others.

And then he hit 50. No longer was America just going to be facing problems in the country. So she granted him the status of 'Ambassador'. Before hand, if he went into Mexico or Canada, his powers would fade and he'd resume being the young man that he is. Now, he can not only go to other countries and still keep his ties to America's power, but he can go to other dimensions also. He fights fitter, takes blows better, and stands as a pinnacle of the virtues of America he believes in. (Rare Cardiac Alpha)

But he's progressing. Growing stronger. And America is granting him the abilities befitting someone of his devotion, conviction and resolute nature (And his love for his county. Jamie Matthews is proud of who he is and where he's from, and hopes to go into politics to further help his home state and his land. He (as Rushmore) also love to go to the various memorial days, see the landmarks of America, and actually gets power or just gifts for doing so.)

His visit to Memorial Day parades granted him a Civil-war style jacket and cloak, something more formal to wear. (The Victorian Jacket with the arcane cloak, will have to grab a screenshot.)

His visit to Yellowstone National Park ended up with his powers gaining the ability to ignite his foes with righteous fire, burning away their will to fight (Reactive -Res, Fire DoT).

When the Praetorians invaded, he was given access to the lightning that strikes America's highest buildings, to show the invading forces just what they were facing. (Ion Judgement)

In times of strife and war, people will get hurt, and morale will decline. With Call to Justice, Rushmore can rally the spirits of people to take the fight back to the enemy. With his Rebirth Destiny power, he can heal those around them and let the residual power continue to aid them for a time.

And soon? Soon Rushmore will be getting married. And America will gift him with spirits representing Truth and Justice, to look out for him in the field of battle and ensure he can always come home to his wife. (Lore Phantom pets.)

What will the future hold for Rushmore? Well, it depends on what challenges he will face. Even now, he still trains hard and works to increase his baseline abilities (using the IO system) and he's setting his mind to spend the next decade or two working up to election for Senator for South Dakota, all while being a good husband and inspiring hero.

What powers he gains next from his beloved America? Well, that remains to be seen from what the Incarnate System presents us with.

What's an Incarnate to me?

Well nigh unattainable.

What's an incarnate to me?

Somebody who is grasping for godhood only discovering that every little minion out there has beaten him to it and are way beyond him in powers and levels.

Godhood is not what the advertisement says.

Incarnates to me, are basically Marvel and DCs version of A-Listers.

Batman would be an Incarnate in CoH.
Spider-Man would be an Incarnate in CoH.

Nothing in the Incarnate abilities have made me feel like there's this big OMG I'M A GOD!

What? Taking out a group of cannon fodder? Batman and Spider-Man do that all the time!

When I can take on a minimum of 8 AVs and kill them all at once (you know...like Statesman has done to teams of villains in the LRSF) then it'll feel like being a god.

As of now, Incarnate feels like "Hey, I'm an A-Lister not a sidekick"

To the OP: Great post. It's so easy to get lost in all the mechanics that we forget the story behind it all.

To me being Incarnate means to be More...but also Different. If you made Spider Man stronger, faster etc he'd basically be the same guy...only more capable. Now the changes in Tony Stark/Iron Man since Extremis (Tony is injected with nanites to save his life and become much more than human)...to me THAT'S an Incarnate story and a bag of chips.

I've never been comfortable with the idea of 'Gods' in stories as PCs. I see such powerful beings (Galactus, The Watcher, Fate, Eternity and so on) as being too big to fit into a specific role. They're better served as a plot device to get the ball rolling or steer the plot IMHO.

This is not to say that raw power doesn't add a sense of greatness in a character but by itself power is not enough. A character's ability to impact the world around him is a key part of how others see him. Sure, Thor can bring down lightning and shatter mountains but it's his nobility and courage that impress me. Captain America, long one of my favorite heroes, is a perfect example. He's more than a man thanks to the Super Soldier Serum. But it's what he's done since he was changed that makes him great to me. He's not bullet-proof, can't fly and can't survive in space. Yet to me his ability to lead and inspire others and the courage to fight all manner of strange enemies lifts him above normal men and even above many other heroes.

For me, it's the courage that makes a hero a hero. It's the deeds that hero does that makes him even more.

I come to a definition of 'Incarnate' in a couple of different ways. I was fortunate in the first circumstance because I designed a character that was effectively already an underpowered deity that took human form.

Burnum was named after an Australian Aboriginal warrior of the Dreamtime and later fleshed out to be the Rainbow Serpent of the same time inhabiting a human avatar, giving him his powers. As time passed, not only did I change the look of the character, but I started bringing the deity's personality to the fore more often until the point where I 'killed off' the human host and had the host's spirit joined with a Kheldian to make my first Peacebringer.

By the time the Alpha Slot and the notion of Incarnates rolled around, I was more than ready to embrace the character fully as what he was. He was the living embodiment, the Incarnate representation of the character.

So that's one definition. To me, an Incarnate embodies something, be it a concept or a religion or something esoteric. Very much like how the Silver Surfer isn't the origin of the power, but very much embodies what it is.

The other definition of Incarnate to me is self-achievement. More accurately, I'd use the word Paragon because you're reaching for a pinnacle of ability or power or whatever it is that the character is striving for. Some Incarnate abilities I see as direct extensions of other powers, such as Pyronic Judgement being an extension of a Fire power or even Laser Beam Eyes.

Other abilities I see as extensions of non-power related abilities. I have one character that is meant to be a low-level powered character, yet he has Cryonic Judgement and two Lore pets. I get around this and say 'great, he's always been a tinkerer (I use the 30-day jetpack regularly and consider it 'his') and now he's invented both a freeze ray and cobbled together two Clockwork he calls his own'.

I don't think an Incarnate is a jack of all trades in abilities or powers, but instead takes what they do have to a new place or higher level. Actually, the character Neo from the Matrix I think is an Incarnate, now that I think about it. Most people in his world can learn kung fu, and jump long distances, but he goes beyond those limitations and does things other people say are either impossible or done only by certain individuals. What seems superhuman or even godlike to others is just the next plane of ability.

I hope this helps!



S.