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But if you budget wisely, you can get the whole pack and not pay a dime outside of your usual $15/mo subscription. How is this bad?
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Originally Posted by MrDead
-sigh- If I'm paying more to get the complete contents of a booster pack that already exists at a pre-established price being able to NOT buy parts doesn't actually make it NOT cost more to buy an item for $12 I could previously buy for $10.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Chad showed the math, actually. $15 for what we'd get for a booster pack. It can work out to be $10 for a VIP if they haven't spent their 400 point stipend, or can be "free" if bought piecemeal over three months using the stipend. I believe the objection is the full bundle (costumes bits, temp power and emotes) should be $10 without the stipend, or as low as $5 with the stipend.
Thus sort of reminds me of a longstanding argument against boosters; we should be getting all that in our subscription, not bought extra, so we're arguably getting less for the same amount of money or paying more ($10 a pop) more than before to get the same amount of stuff.
My view is different as are my expectations, so that's all I'm willing to venture o guessing. But, regardless of you agreeing or disagreeing, its important that the devs see these comments and feedback! I've always prided myself as a COH player because the development team and community reps at least listened to player concerns, so we should reflect that by not discouraging other views we dislike.
I'm being idealistic here, but that, I feel, is only fitting. Sorry for the times I don't measure up to that.
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Full disclosure I'm totally one of those people (you're all so surprised I can tell) but I also bought every booster pack.. twice...|
Originally Posted by Psyte
Chad showed the math, actually. $15 for what we'd get for a booster pack. It can work out to be $10 for a VIP if they haven't spent their 400 point stipend, or can be "free" if bought piecemeal over three months using the stipend. I believe the objection is the full bundle (costumes bits, temp power and emotes) should be $10 without the stipend, or as low as $5 with the stipend.
Thus sort of reminds me of a longstanding argument against boosters; we should be getting all that in our subscription, not bought extra, so we're arguably getting less for the same amount of money or paying more ($10 a pop) more than before to get the same amount of stuff. My view is different as are my expectations, so that's all I'm willing to venture o guessing. But, regardless of you agreeing or disagreeing, its important that the devs see these comments and feedback! I've always prided myself as a COH player because the development team and community reps at least listened to player concerns, so we should reflect that by not discouraging other views we dislike. I'm being idealistic here, but that, I feel, is only fitting. Sorry for the times I don't measure up to that. |
edit: except the party pack.
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As I mentioned a second ago I'm afraid this is the start of having to pay for everything, forever and this driving current customers away.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
But if you budget wisely, you can get the whole pack and not pay a dime outside of your usual $15/mo subscription. How is this bad?
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Btw do we have any info on the powers prices yet?
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Not that I know of. The current expectation I have is the game, as-is, will be the base game as outlined, with future powersets being purchasable for Free and Premium players, and available for VIP use but characters will be locked should they become Premium players. Once the player buys the powerset then they'll be able to use it for new characters and be able to unlock characters with that set (similar to Controllers and Masterminds). |
Originally Posted by MrDead
As I mentioned a second ago I'm afraid this is the start of having to pay for everything, forever and this driving current customers away.
Btw do we have any info on the powers prices yet? |
Again, this is my expectation, my theory. Nothing to back it up yet.
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See.. this is one of my major concerns... if I personaly have to wait 3 months to buy a powerset I would have previously gotten for free.. (or with the purchase of an expansion) it's going to burn me. It's going to irritate me every time I see it. I'm constantly going to be thinking 'I should have that already.'|
Originally Posted by Psyte
Not that I know of. The current expectation I have is the game, as-is, will be the base game as outlined, with future powersets being purchasable for Free and Premium players, and available for VIP use but characters will be locked should they become Premium players. Once the player buys the powerset then they'll be able to use it for new characters and be able to unlock characters with that set (similar to Controllers and Masterminds).
Again, this is my expectation, my theory. Nothing to back it up yet. |
Now, this could very well be insane and unrealistic (I don't think it is) but I won't be the only one that feels this way by a long shot.
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Currently, they release free powersets in pairs, and usually about every 18-24 months. If they release a new powerset every three months, only you have to pay $10 for it now, isn't that still somewhat of an improvement?|
Originally Posted by MrDead
See.. this is one of my major concerns... if I personaly have to wait 3 months to buy a powerset I would have previously gotten for free.. (or with the purchase of an expansion) it's going to burn me. It's going to irritate me every time I see it. I'm constantly going to be thinking 'I should have that already.'
Now, this could very well be insane and unrealistic (I don't think it is) but I won't be the only one that feels this way by a long shot. |
Shortly before GR launched, Posi had the development teams split into groups. Presumably, resources will be allocated to those teams based on where the microtransaction money is going. If people pay money for powersets, then they'll get more resources, and we'll get more of them. It's a give and take.
If you want them, you can use your stipend and save up and get them at no additional cost, or you can pay a few bucks out of pocket. If it brings you joy, it's not a bad deal either way.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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But waiting two months for a powerset that's already in game isn't going to bring me joy, as mentioned. Paying more for them isn't either, nor is purchasing points to get them. I'm accustomed to a certain pattern of things and this is certainly a very serious upsetting of the apple-cart. I'm used to getting powersets in issues. Not paying $10 (theoreticly) for them. Of course if VIP's get powersets unlocked for free than one of my major gripes is moot...
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Currently, they release free powersets in pairs, and usually about every 18-24 months. If they release a new powerset every three months, only you have to pay $10 for it now, isn't that still somewhat of an improvement?
Shortly before GR launched, Posi had the development teams split into groups. Presumably, resources will be allocated to those teams based on where the microtransaction money is going. If people pay money for powersets, then they'll get more resources, and we'll get more of them. It's a give and take. If you want them, you can use your stipend and save up and get them at no additional cost, or you can pay a few bucks out of pocket. If it brings you joy, it's not a bad deal either way. |
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Perhaps their target is to make more reasonable people happy: people who don't expect the worst for example.|
Originally Posted by MrDead
But waiting two months for a powerset that's already in game isn't going to bring me joy, as mentioned. Paying more for them isn't either, nor is purchasing points to get them. I'm accustomed to a certain pattern of things and this is certainly a very serious upsetting of the apple-cart. I'm used to getting powersets in issues. Not paying $10 (theoreticly) for them. Of course if VIP's get powersets unlocked for free than one of my major gripes is moot...
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VIPs will certainly get free powersets like they have gotten in the past. They will also sometimes have to pay for powersets like they have had to in the past. I can say both things with absolute certainty. But short of analyzing developer timesheets there will be no absolute way to prove we are getting more free content with our subscription than we have gotten in the past, and no way at all to disprove the unfalsifiable assertion that we would have gotten more if the switch to the Hybrid model didn't occur. At some point the people who want to believe that over the strong but inconclusive evidence otherwise will simply have to settle for being voluntarily unhappy. I do not want the devs to waste a lot of time trying to make them happy when that is impossible, or too difficult relative to making many more other people happy with a lot less effort.
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Powersets are an interesting thing since getting the most out of them is a matter of delayed gratification, personal style, and AT choices. They're a lot of work, obviously, and new ones really do need some defining features compared to the older powersets!
If there's a Powers team, and if they can de-couple powerset releases from issue releases, that would be ideal. It seems they're doing that with content releases to a degree with signature stories, so the more they can do that with other content, the better, leaving issue updates for big updates and major plotlines.
For me I would like to see more powersets come out more regularly than what we've been accustomed to provided there's not a loss in quality. Pricing should be based on how many AT's can benefit from a powerset - a Blaster only secondary set should not cost as much as something that could be used by Blasters, Defenders, Corruptors and Doms.
I'd be fine paying for powersets, even as a VIP, provided the following are generally met:
- My stipend should cover a fair portion of the cost of the powerset.
- The fewer ATs the powerset is usuable by, the lower the price should be.
- We should see some powersets be freely available for VIP players that add to the core subscriber experience.
- Powersets should go on sale or have coupons on occasion!
Now, I've already discussed my thoughts on pricing earlier on in-thread, so I'll consider them "submitted" ideas. But this is what I think for the time being, and I'll readily admit my thoughts/position will change.
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how did you come up with that? Are you saying they dont have a right to raise prices according to supply and demand?
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Originally Posted by MrDead
-sigh- If I'm paying more to get the complete contents of a booster pack that already exists at a pre-established price being able to NOT buy parts doesn't actually make it NOT cost more to buy an item for $12 I could previously buy for $10.
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Well, you actually *could* reward Freeks and Preems with Paragon Points for doing stuff in the game if you gate the Points per day.
So, let's say the Preems can do something that earns a Point, and there's the usual 20 hour cool down before they can earn another point. They'll be earning on average 30 points per month. That's about 7.5% the rate of a VIP, plus they have to do stuff, so, if they skip a day, they don't get it.
It will whet their appetite. When they get 35 Points and they have their eyes on the 50 Point item, they'll break down and buy Points. Their glacial accumulation will cause them to buy points or subscribe for the 'free' 400 Points/mo.
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Always remember, every opinion isn't being thought by one person. Don't be so quick to vilify me for expressing concerns a percentage of the player base is already thinking simply because we don't agree.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Perhaps their target is to make more reasonable people happy: people who don't expect the worst for example.
VIPs will certainly get free powersets like they have gotten in the past. They will also sometimes have to pay for powersets like they have had to in the past. I can say both things with absolute certainty. But short of analyzing developer timesheets there will be no absolute way to prove we are getting more free content with our subscription than we have gotten in the past, and no way at all to disprove the unfalsifiable assertion that we would have gotten more if the switch to the Hybrid model didn't occur. At some point the people who want to believe that over the strong but inconclusive evidence otherwise will simply have to settle for being voluntarily unhappy. I do not want the devs to waste a lot of time trying to make them happy when that is impossible, or too difficult relative to making many more other people happy with a lot less effort. |
I expect the worst and I usually get it. Not expecting it isn't going to make it not happen nor is anything I put forth even remotely impossible.
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No that's insane and it will cause global warming and literally everyone will die if we do that. Or so I'm told.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Well, you actually *could* reward Freeks and Preems with Paragon Points for doing stuff in the game if you gate the Points per day.
So, let's say the Preems can do something that earns a Point, and there's the usual 20 hour cool down before they can earn another point. They'll be earning on average 30 points per month. That's about 7.5% the rate of a VIP, plus they have to do stuff, so, if they skip a day, they don't get it. It will whet their appetite. When they get 35 Points and they have their eyes on the 50 Point item, they'll break down and buy Points. Their glacial accumulation will cause them to buy points or subscribe for the 'free' 400 Points/mo. |
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Reasonable, although I wouldn't have it every day/month. If it was run similar to the Strike Package of the week (maybe every other week, select days, select months where revenue drops off normally, etc), making it more of an event? That'd be a little more controllable, I think.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Well, you actually *could* reward Freeks and Preems with Paragon Points for doing stuff in the game if you gate the Points per day.
So, let's say the Preems can do something that earns a Point, and there's the usual 20 hour cool down before they can earn another point. They'll be earning on average 30 points per month. That's about 7.5% the rate of a VIP, plus they have to do stuff, so, if they skip a day, they don't get it. It will whet their appetite. When they get 35 Points and they have their eyes on the 50 Point item, they'll break down and buy Points. Their glacial accumulation will cause them to buy points or subscribe for the 'free' 400 Points/mo. |
I would personally take the value of those points from Marketing (because, really, that's what it is) and be darn sure that when a Freem or Preem reaches x-many points they get an email with items featured in the shop for about that price and a bit more. Again, probably more back-end butt-pain, but I think that would be a reasonable way to implement such a thing.
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Ha I like the idea of the free points with a point blank marketing shotgun aimed at em, now that's a good idea. Probably work to.
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Originally Posted by Psyte
Reasonable, although I wouldn't have it every day/month. If it was run similar to the Strike Package of the week (maybe every other week, select days, select months where revenue drops off normally, etc), making it more of an event? That'd be a little more controllable, I think.
I would personally take the value of those points from Marketing (because, really, that's what it is) and be darn sure that when a Freem or Preem reaches x-many points they get an email with items featured in the shop for about that price and a bit more. Again, probably more back-end butt-pain, but I think that would be a reasonable way to implement such a thing. |
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You'll have to balance the benefit of extending that sort of thing against the complaints you'll generate from people who will feel slighted by the very small amount of points they can earn. And it doesn't really matter if the complaint appears irrational: if you want to try to convince me that something is better than nothing and the number of people who would complain and cause a problem under those circumstances would be extremely small, you may certainly give it your best shot.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Well, you actually *could* reward Freeks and Preems with Paragon Points for doing stuff in the game if you gate the Points per day.
So, let's say the Preems can do something that earns a Point, and there's the usual 20 hour cool down before they can earn another point. They'll be earning on average 30 points per month. That's about 7.5% the rate of a VIP, plus they have to do stuff, so, if they skip a day, they don't get it. It will whet their appetite. When they get 35 Points and they have their eyes on the 50 Point item, they'll break down and buy Points. Their glacial accumulation will cause them to buy points or subscribe for the 'free' 400 Points/mo. |
One more thing: if this thing is very time consuming it will be seen as a grind on top of being infinitesimal. But if it doesn't take a lot of time, since points can buy consumables I can sign up for a hundred free accounts and earn a ton of points across those accounts, bypassing the time gates. You potentially open the door to another RMT opportunity. Free accounts will cost nothing to make and in this game will be trivial to PL to any combat level you want rapidly, making level gating irrelevant.
Is it mathematically possible to find just the right balancing point for the reward rate and the time gates and the content selection to prevent trivial exploit? Maybe. How many man-years would you like the devs to allocate finding it?
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You were told correctly.|
Originally Posted by MrDead
No that's insane and it will cause global warming and literally everyone will die if we do that. Or so I'm told.
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I'm telling you something different because of the addition of a time gate.
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Anyone else see the humor in Mr. Dead and Zombie Man having a conversation? 
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You mean like Day Job Badges and Day Job Powers? |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You'll have to balance the benefit of extending that sort of thing against the complaints you'll generate from people who will feel slighted by the very small amount of points they can earn. And it doesn't really matter if the complaint appears irrational: if you want to try to convince me that something is better than nothing and the number of people who would complain and cause a problem under those circumstances would be extremely small, you may certainly give it your best shot.
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| One more thing: if this thing is very time consuming it will be seen as a grind on top of being infinitesimal. But if it doesn't take a lot of time, since points can buy consumables I can sign up for a hundred free accounts and earn a ton of points across those accounts, bypassing the time gates. |
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Well the time gates are goofy. You can get to 50 in like 2 weeks without farming if you dedicate the time. And apparently it is possible since other games have done it already. You bind the consumables to the character, a system already in place. Problem solved. You have a real obsession with the rmt's which are still very firmly still standing in atlas a LOT.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You'll have to balance the benefit of extending that sort of thing against the complaints you'll generate from people who will feel slighted by the very small amount of points they can earn. And it doesn't really matter if the complaint appears irrational: if you want to try to convince me that something is better than nothing and the number of people who would complain and cause a problem under those circumstances would be extremely small, you may certainly give it your best shot.
One more thing: if this thing is very time consuming it will be seen as a grind on top of being infinitesimal. But if it doesn't take a lot of time, since points can buy consumables I can sign up for a hundred free accounts and earn a ton of points across those accounts, bypassing the time gates. You potentially open the door to another RMT opportunity. Free accounts will cost nothing to make and in this game will be trivial to PL to any combat level you want rapidly, making level gating irrelevant. Is it mathematically possible to find just the right balancing point for the reward rate and the time gates and the content selection to prevent trivial exploit? Maybe. How many man-years would you like the devs to allocate finding it? |
edit: ignore that whole time gate/50 thing I'm playing and doing this at the same time.. anyway...
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It's like talking to myself!
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Anyone else see the humor in Mr. Dead and Zombie Man having a conversation?
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There's a grocery store that I've got a discount card with. Now, in addition to everything else it does, I periodically get free eggs. Its just a buck or three savings for me (protip: don't move to Hawai'i if you're prone to sticker shock), but I'll get those stupid eggs, and go shopping for the rest of my stuff there too while I'm at it instead of the other places. Now, I still have to buy something to get the eggs, but I get my eggs, they get my money. And of course, buy one get one free coupons are a favorite of mine with Jack in the Box and Carl's Jr.|
Originally Posted by MrDead
Ha I like the idea of the free points with a point blank marketing shotgun aimed at em, now that's a good idea. Probably work to.
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A good (and I mean GOOD) thing to do is find out how you're being marketed to. I think Dave Ramsey calls it consumer self-defense
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
One more thing: if this thing is very time consuming it will be seen as a grind on top of being infinitesimal. But if it doesn't take a lot of time, since points can buy consumables I can sign up for a hundred free accounts and earn a ton of points across those accounts, bypassing the time gates. You potentially open the door to another RMT opportunity. Free accounts will cost nothing to make and in this game will be trivial to PL to any combat level you want rapidly, making level gating irrelevant.
Is it mathematically possible to find just the right balancing point for the reward rate and the time gates and the content selection to prevent trivial exploit? Maybe. How many man-years would you like the devs to allocate finding it? |
What's that old saying? No battle/business plan survives contact with the enemy?
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Well, a better concern is if they can get 25pp's then they can buy a costume part. If that can turn a Free player into a Premium player, then they can send tells and use gleemail. Since there's no actual cost to them except time, they can earn influence, salvage, etc., to sell, then at 30 days unload that character's stuff, become Premium, do a mass email/tell spam-a-thon, and throw the account away. This is more than they can do currrently without resorting to credit card fraud (not that I think they have anything against it).|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
First, I'd like you to explain how you got past the account-sharing gate. Sure, you might be able to buy a pass along a Point-bought inspiration from one free account to another. But how are you going to get your other free accounts to unlock AE access on your main accounts since I'm assuming you can't gleemail Paragon Points?
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Originally Posted by MrDead
You have a real obsession with the rmt's which are still very firmly still standing in atlas a LOT.
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Pessimism and looking for conspiracies won't serve you well in the long run. Everyone who thinks the boogeyman is out there will eventually find one, usually after making one up just to be right, or making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I'm concerned this will be the death of free content, and that we'll quietly be being charged ever so slightly more for everything, and WILL be charged for EVERYTHING that isn't a mission from now on.
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