Consistent inconsistency

City of Heroes is a game that hangs it's hat on being a homage to comic books. Doing that and doing it best is what makes the game unique and special.

But I've noticed that, for some reason, it is more common for wierd, non-iconic power set combinations to have the really good synergy rather than the really iconic combinations. Also, it seems that it's more common for powersets that are iconic to less powerful heroes are often the more powerful sets in the game.

Just for a few quick examples, it's not Invulnerability and Super Strength that have exceptionally good synergy, but things like Dark Melee and Shield Defense. Now, there is nothing more iconic than Super Strength and Invunerability, but who can name one really well know, iconic hero that both punches with darkness and totes a shield? And why would a Martial Arts/Willpower toon--basically a stuborned guy with a black belt--be generally more survivable unless you IO out?

Storm/Electric is generally considerd to be nothing special as a combination, though it is very iconic and sexy as hell, but Illusion/Radiation--a really wierd and awkward combo conceptually--is the AV GM killing champion. And Ice or Fire don't even have especially good synergy with themselves (ie Ice/Ice or Fire/Fire toons).

So what am I saying?

Well, while I know it's the goal to avoid FotM combinations and to balance the game, it will never be perfect. If that's the case (and it is whether anyone accepts it or not), in a game that is basically an homage, why not put a little thought into making sure that the iconic concept and traditionally high-powered sets and combinations are at least really solid and synergistic?

Now, someone will say "but those other sets are perfectly playable due to difficulty control" and "well, that just encourages more unusual heroes", but is that the point in a classic superhero MMORPG? It seems that it would make sense to make sure that the classic powers and power combinations are really solid within the context of game balance so that people who want an iconic toon don't have to settle for mediocre heroicness in gameplay.

Every time I'm on a team and I see a Willpower toon (described in game text as basically being like Batman) taking it on the chin as the tank (an Willpower can take the alpha, I see it all the time) while the guy encased in Solar Plasma (Fiery Aura) and punching with the Power of the Sun (Energy Melee) is kinda squishy and hitting corpses due to animation time, I scratch my head. Batman took the uzi in the chest, while Solar Dude can't keep up to him in taking a hit or damage.

Anyay, I love the game and it rocks, and this is not a huge problem, but it is pretty consistant that conceptually "low power" defensive sets are exceptionally survivable and "iconic" power combinations are just ok while really unwieldy ones have especially strong synergy.

Just my take--interested to know other's experience.

Thanks!

I'll just point out that Batman took a blast from Darkseid and ultimately survived.

I'd rather not see game mechanics warped for RP reasons, myself. Dark Melee happens to synergize with Shield Defense because the -ToHit in DM synergizes with the Defense in SD. So does this mean the -ToHit effect should be added to Super Strength instead? Would that make any more sense?

Completely /unsigned.

you've never seen a really well designed Invuln in action, have you


I must say it is SCARY

While the idea that sets with thematic synergy should similarly have a certain level of combined in-game potency is a good one, this is something that should fall on the sets themselves, not some sort of extra mechanic, and at this point, re-designing powers entirely for the sake of certain thematic synergy is right out. Cottage rule, and all that. It'd be something to consider for a sequel, perhaps.

Similarly, even if it seems like conceptually, some sets "should be" weaker than others, that's pretty horrible for a balanced sort of game. If you want to build a character with "Willpower" who is, in every way, weaker defensively than someone with a Fiery Aura, then that's entirely your prerogative. Go for the MAN build, my friend, you can probably even ask for tips on these very forums. But trying to dictate power imbalance in that fashion just doesn't work for a game like this.

Besides, comics and super heroes come in all shapes and sizes. The Hulk uses /Willpower too.

I see what you're saying, and agree with you ... but we're seven years too late.

Yes, some (greater) amount of attention to "classical" synergies could have been interesting. Making sure that the designers knew that a specific combination was more powerful - and why, and by how much - would have been a good goal. And making sure those alignments fit the genre - like "Super Strength" lending itself to choosing "Invulnerability" over "Shield Defense", for instance - would have been neat.

I would be afraid of how much "incentive" power would have been included. I would certainly not want to be more than there is now - there's currently "strong" and "acceptable" combos, with no (well, few) explicit "weak" combos.

Edit - @Lazarilo - If your post had been there when I wrote mine, I could have said, "Yeah, what he said". Although I do think "obvious" synergies (Dark / Dark; Fire / Fire; Ice / Ice; etc) maybe should have gotten a little bit of a bump, too.

The devs did attempt a little bit of this in the original design of the game. Targeting drone from Blaster /devices, for example, adds damage to Sniper Rifle from AR. Prior to its change, Fiery Embrace gave a larger boost to fire damage than to other damage types and for twice as long.

By and large, the response from the players has been lukewarm at best, with a lot of people pointing out that this feels like the game is railroading them into certain power choices or power sets. In a game so focused towards options, my feeling is that it's best to simply design the sets to stand alone. Perhaps a particular combination will stand out, like DM/Shield, and that's just a quirk of the mechanics, but having odd combinations as forerunners seems to me to be less of a problem than having the game designed to shepherd you to certain choices, especially since players might not like the sets they're being directed to.

For example, Inv/SS tanks... I love Invulnerability as a power set. It's tough as heck and versatile. SS, on the other hand, I don't really like because the rage crashes annoy the heck out of me. I would not be happy if, for instance, my Inv/BA tank was not getting the same bonuses that an Inv/SS tank was, particularly since there's not really a "thematic" partner for BA or the other weapon sets.

Thanks for the replies, interesting points and discussion. A couple of things:

1) Dark Gob- I know Batman survived a hit from Darkseid, but he didn't "tank" him and, anyway, that was as silly as Wolverine regenerating from a direct hit from a nuclear warhead--bad writing is just as common as good writing in comic books.

2) It wouldn't take a game-mechanic change. The devs tweak powersets all the time, even adding new effects to powers. Just a bit of mindfullness of making sure the iconic sets have some synergy.

3) I can't figure out how anyone who actually read my post thought that I was bashing Invulnerability. All I said Invulnerability and Super Strength don't have an exceptional synergy. I love Invulnerability.

But I do like hearing what people think. It's just something I notice about the game and wonder if anyone else sees it.

Thanks!

Invuln/SS plays just fine, tyvm. It doesn't need gimmicks.

If the devs were going to synergize, I'd prefer to see all combinations get something unique, not just the so-called "iconic" ones. (Invuln/SS gets Recovery bonus, for instance, while Invuln/Dark gets, I dunno, a Regen bonus. Just making stuff up here, it would need to be balanced.) If you give preferential treatment to a certain combination that's all anyone will ever play. Does the game really need to become City of Superman, Wolverine & Batman?

In CoH, the 'signature combinations' are the ones we make. Ours are the important characters. It's 110% fine that way, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I think this is an interesting observation/opinion.
I think things are okay, but I also get that you're not saying things are terrible.

What really stood out is the comment about Fiery Aura compared to Will Power... Not even in pure game mechanics/numbers, but just thematically/conceptually and how things generally go in the game with those examples.
The character, in this case, that should be more of a cosmic level character is squishier than the thematically squishier down-to-earth character (assuming that is relatively true, as I do not have any firsthand experience with playing Fiery Aura... yet...).
Just at a glance, this seems so (although, of course people play Fiery Aura quite effectively).

Anyway...
I do want to add this in though...

While your initial sentiment might seem logical (that the most iconic strong powers should be... the strong powers, or just as strong as the strongest...), perhaps it is best that they aren't, for this one reason.

People will absolutely use those powers because they are iconic.
However, the people who base their decisions more on the numbers and efficiency would then also choose those same iconic powers.
And then.. there'd be far less diversity.

All of this is being said with a full understanding that every single powerset in this game can be used with great effectiveness and fun. So, none of these comments about more/less powerful should be taken as meaning anything too extreme.


EDIT: Also, what Techbot says above is also a very important point!

Yeah, my suggestion was pretty mild--"maybe keep in mind that "powerful" powers should at least be solid and iconic sets should have decent synergy as opposed to none"--and people started talking about changing basic game mechanics and their freedoms being taken away.

I wasn't crying doom or for a game overhaul, just maybe some conceptual consideration. Or not--they're not gonna change it based on this thread, so no one has to worry :P. You're safe.

It just frequently strikes me as odd how usually--not always, but more often than not--"cosmic" or "high powered" feeling sets and really conceptually nice combinations are slightly but significantly less powerful in-game than the "down to earth" sets and the odd, awkward combinations. Maybe I didn't say it well, but I wasn't asking for an advantage there as much as a better balance.

I feel alwful weak on my "sun powered, cosmic" EM/FA brute compared to my "street level, Daredevil-like" MA/WP scrapper. The Karate guy could totally kick the solar dudes butt. Would barely even singe his boots. And it'd be nice to be able to make a Storm/Electric "Storm God" that nearly as godly, as an Illusion/Rad.

BUT, there have been some really good points raised. I especially like Electric-Knight's comments. Diversity is good, and people will us the "conceptually cool" combinations anyway because, well, they are conceptually cool.

Thanks for the discussion!

Not every Martial Arts/Willpower scrapper will be a "Street Level Daredevil". Martial Arts/Willpower could also be used to make Drax the Destroyer, whose sole purpose is hunting down and killing Thanos. Drax is a cosmic level threat, and either Dual Blades or Martial Arts would work fine.

Likewise, not every Energy Melee/Fiery Aura brute will be cosmic powered. I could make the "Unwise Raver", who likes to punch things while carrying glow sticks and is on fire because he didn't put his cigarette out before sticking it in his pocket. It's okay, it seems as though he has a mutant ability not to take damage from it. Either way, he's on the low end of the power spectrum; Glow Sticks and Burning Rayon don't grant phenomenal cosmic power.

Invulnerability/Super Strength is rather iconic, but it can represent Superman, Luke Cage, The Blob (though you'd want Unyielding Stance instead of Unyielding), The Tick, and Colossus.

City of Heroes doesn't have a way to tell the difference between someone playing The Tick and someone playing Superman, except the person playing Superman would probably take Flight.

Hi Chyll,

No, you didn't come back too strong, and I really do like the discussion going on.

I come from a background of being a "comics nerd" growing up. I never played MMORPG's until COH came out, though I have tons of Everquest/WoW buddies, so I have some concept of those games and have played them a bit. It's just the Superhero genre that attracted me and keeps my attention.

Samuel: I guess I wasn't really thinking from the perspective of someone who plays this game, not for the "traditionsl superhero experience" as it was intended, but rather because of the flexibility of the creation system. The game WAS, and still is, intended by the Devs to be a comic book homage, but, if you buy red wine with white fish, you paid, it's your wine.

It is cool that the creation system and game is broad enough to support that. I certainly don't mind the "non-tradtional" toons running around--except maybe that one "vamipre" who's description said that humans are meaningless cattle while he was saving an old woman from getting her purse snatched :P.

Here I thought this was a thread about moderation.

Not sure what you mean by that, Dumple--BUT, my goal was to put something that I noticed about the game out there and see if there was enough of a consensus for it to become a "suggestion", and the response seems to be that people either think it is a non-issue, or they see my point but don't think it's a big deal.

So, fair enough .

Yes, that is synergy. But I meant exactly what I said. Super Strength and Invulnerability don't have "exceptional synergy"--like Dark Melee and Shield that allows you to solo AV's and rock the Pylon tests and still be very strong in general play. Or Illusion/Rad that lets you solo Giant Monsters and still be great on a team.

Yes, it's perfectly playable, but if there is gonna be THAT kind of synergy in the game anyway--it's already there--my idea was just that it might as well be intentional rather than random.

But, as the discussion on this thread convinced me, that might cause more trouble than it's worth .