Ever going to be able to SB, Shield, Buff ourselves?!

Well then if the argument that it is op as a single and should not be allowed, then it needs to be extended to any grouping of more than 1. Maybe defenders need a further change in vigilance that makes their buffs less effective the more of them are on a team

Well anyone with two accounts can run that duo. Second, Survivability buffing is only needed when characters can't survive on their own.

Which is part of why /FF has issues.

Every other support sets brings something other than survivability buffing to the table. Usually significantly more, even if that set is chiefly devoted to survivability buffing (e.g. Emp, Therm, Pain, Sonic).

Simple answer: They are force multipliers, and running on teams is when they are supposed to do well.

And with some combos it IS overpowered. A pair of Empathy/Sonics duoing is one of the most broken combos in the game, quite easily capable of duoing pretty much any TF they choose to, from about level 20 on.

The only way to prevent some of them from being overpowered is to forbid them from teaming with other force multipliers, and that's not going to happen.

Some people do dual box those characters, but for the most part, if you want to be overpowered, you require at least one other player to do it. They aren't going to allow a single Empathy/Sonic to be just as powerful as two of them are while teamed.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Force Field is in a really weird position. I'll say that with the AoE shield buffing mechanic, you would be crazy not to want one in your league who has Power Boost. That's +35 defense to the entire league when slotted with just SOs, outside the big bubble. But the set definitely has its hands forced in a lot of ways. I don't think forcing a set into the APPs for justification of its role is really appropriate.

IMO though the more I look at it, the AoE buff mechanic is over the top. IMO you should be able to hit only members of your team + your own pets. I think the ability to buff all raid members, their pets, and anything vaguelly friendly to you all at once is extremely overpowered and likely to require backtracking to fix.

Perhaps. I find though that rarely on a league that everyone is together in a clump. On bafs, peeps are splitting up to hit different ADD spawns, or different escapee doors. Hell, even if you are doing choke points, the league is still split up to handle that. The keep em seperated badge also pushes us towards splitting the league into zone coverage.

Lambs, especially now that iXP will be shared, I can see half the league going separate ways, and meeting in the middle. Plus during the gathering phase the league is split. Hell, most teams these days split for doing maurader with some folks taking out the ADD's for the astral. I would say the devs are doing a decent job of "suggesting" we get out of the clumped up turtle method.

I'll add that AVs resist debuffs at 85%. They do NOT resist or weaken buffs. So against an AV, Dark Miasma debuffs are getting only 15% of their power (and the controls like the fear are entirely wasted, so you're seeing less than 15% of the set's effectiveness). So for the harder content, anyway, self-buffers would be vastly more powerful than the debuffers are. That's probably why debuffers are allowed to use almost all their powers even solo, whereas buffers don't get some of theirs. And the debuffers, as you point out, have been soloing AVs already.

Because 2 now buff each other once. 2 under your suggestion would buff each other twice -- the other player and themselves. It's more powerful.

Issue 21: Diminishing Returns

Oh I hope not.

The reason I think it should be limited to only your team + your pets is that would more closely simulate what the original "reach" of the buff powers were. I doubt very much if any buffer was buffing entire leagues and every one of their pets; I certainly wasn't. The people who were doing that would still be free to do it the old way, by targetting each person individually.

Interresting. My Fire/Dark Corr, Rad/DP Def, Dark/Ice Def, Dark/Sonic Def, Cold/Ice Def, didn't need teams to protect them.

Dark Miasma never has one feeling like a sidekick once IOs get involved

RAD/ well...I thought it felt more likely to faceplant than the Dark/'s but still, can be slotted to be pretty survivalable.

Cold/ felt tougher than Rad/ but not as survivable as Dark/.

And I haven't even played Traps/ yet, which I'm sure is likely pretty survivable.

Sooo...no idea where you get the idea they feel like sidekicks.

And? What would be so horrible about that? I think that would be great. I think a blaster having a self heal at level 10 would be fantastic! And I think a scrapper with AB would be the most fun EVER!

I say we throw all these archtypes out the window and just make the toons be able to select any power from any typical AT.

Let me get me some siphon speed, siphon power, granite armor, bitter ice blast, and fire ball.

Sorry, I was being silly. The serious me is back now.
I think the OP is really just irritated at the lack of population on his server during the times he/she plays. I know I've got a new earth/ice controller who doesn't really want to choose the cold barrier for that very reason.

What good will SB do my new kin/ice defender? If I rarely team, not much good at all. But, then, why would I have named him Buff Daddy if he has no buffs?

The three build option is available, as mentioned previously, but it's annoying because of the stupid timer before you can change the build back, and having to find a trainer to do so in the first place. Ought to be able to open up the powers or enhancement window and select a build from there.

lol

you cast empathic heal on your self....ooops no more healing on you for a while.

You cast heal other on your self...wow now you actualy healed your self a little more then the empathy aura....wow so much over balance.

You decide to cast adrenalin boost on yourself....the power it self if you actualy have empathy you would notice doesnt get to a certain point on recharge...it has a minimum time of recharge so you wont ever get it permanent no matter how hard you try or how many buffs you try. So now you have used it on yourself you cant put it on another person for a while.

hmm....oh thats right clear mind....well if you get stunned or slept you still wont be casting it.....oh boy you gave yourself a 15 second resistance to things....

So anywise exactly what was imbalancing again on your plant/empath?

Oh wait i know it was the +5% accruacy and +10% damage bonus power.....gee thats going to break you something fierce....its almsot 1/5th as effective as using inspirations that last the same amount of time.

And since you cannot stack your own effects on the same target i highly doubt you will ever be more then what you are now...might be able to actualy take some punishment for a bit by actively healing your self....but aside from that....you would be like the clerics in many other online games....able to survive fairly well....if you can make sure you heal yourself...oh wait clearmind can get stacked....well...now you mean you might be able to resist some stuyn and sleep for a bit on some things....goodness....that really makes the game super unbalanced...


So if you had the ability to use empathic powers on your self....how would that make you unbalanced?

You run into a villain and what then.....kill it by casting clearmind on yourself?

Does anyone actualy look at their own ingame statistics anymore...this thread is making me wonder.

first off....you dont play an empath much at all...how do i know you ask...well....your statements...little things...like not knowing maximum recharge for adrenalin boost was 150 seconds no matter what you do or the 25% damage and thinking thats boosting your damage alot(yah small numbers still get rounded down 25 becomes a whopping 30 damage with fortitude)....thats called a looks good on paper error....you read statistics but never actualy tried to do it in game.
Also your statements make it seam like you didnt know the auras already get cast onthe empath when they get used....you needed to add them in as some reasons....but failed becasue you didnt realize that the empath already has endless energy and they also dont get alot of damage....so in essense the only thing a heal other on themselves gets is a little bit more damage protection becasue they dont have a resistance or defense.
And the clearmind comment...yah spoken like someone who is affraid their tank or scrapper or brute or whatever is not going to be able to monopolyze the resistance to holds thing

So lets as you say recap....

You are someone who doesnt play an empath much at all...and if you do you do not know how your own powers work....and is trying to say certain features are going to happen that are already there....hmm interesting.....i would say....perhaps you should play this game sometime as an empath and then actualy post on the forums once you have a clear understanding of what that means.

There are more pro reasons to being able to cast on your self too.

One is for choices......players would have choices......as a defender empath you could choose to heal a teammate or heal yourself...you could choose to put adrenalin boost on someone else or yourself...the question becomes who needs it more...as a master of healing in the empath debate why are they so stupid that they cant even heal themselves right now? If you are a Defender shouldnt you be able to defend yourself? Is your character too stupid to know how to help themselves so they can help others? Again its choices...should you help your self over someone else....adding a choice is always good.

2nd is for the solo player who could add some defenses to themselves to maybe survive better or be able to actualy dish out damage to things instead of having to always rely on some tank or someone else to do the things for them. Isnt it tiring to run into the clockwork paladin construction and being unable to stop it? Isnt it about time to stop always needing help when fighting the Elite Bosses? Isnt it annoying that everytime you get knocked over or whatever you have to turn on your whirlwind or hot feet or blazing aura again or end up waiting to land that killing blow becasue you are stunned or held or are sleeping.

And the last thing...is to actualy make a difference.....when you run with a full team...and they start acting super arrogant and they suddenly die to the crystal titan or suddenly eat dirt becasue they ran in to fight rularuu with out getting ready...or maybe you had some bad pulls or someone went off and died while scouting..then thats where your own defense comes in.....its not about tanking or being a tank mage or whatever idiocy people are coming up with.....its the same thing for jade dynasty or playing AION or playing final fantasy XI......at that moment in those games....you survive and you change the battle...you rez everyone else in mid stream...you continue the fight...there is no stopping...you actualy do make a difference at that point....in this game thats where it needs to come in...a point where you can put that shield up on your self and actualy take that beating for just a little longer while your friend gets back up....the point where you relize you need to heal yourself and retreat so you can pull the rest of the team out of there....that single point where you stand up and be the hero/villain/vigilante/rogue/resistance/loyalist that the npcs talk about.

And thats the reason people need to be able to use their powers on themselves.....they need to be heroes...not always sidekicks...the game is about becoming more.....not becoming less.
(by the way look up the definition of sidekick...its interesting...its amazing people on this topic dont realize a support role technicaly means sidekick or lacky)

Using Mid's, I managed to get Adrenalin Boost's recharge down to just under 87 seconds. That was using Hasten, set bonuses, and a healing sets recharge reduction enhancements. That doesn't take into account the +100% recharge that AB would add to the mix. Nor did I use any purple sets. Granted, Hasten would have just over a 9 second down time (also without the +100% recharge from AB).

So, with AB being perma on a quick Emp/Sonic Defender, I would have something along the lines of 1588% regeneration, 1156% recovery, just over 30% def (all positions(Hover, Maneuvers, Defender Fortitude), damage bonus of 134% (Assault, Set bonuses, Defender Fortitude, Amplify), a to-hit bonus of 88.6% ( Tactics, Defender Fortitude, Amplify), a +248.75% recharge boost, and +12 status protection (90 seconds duration).* All that with ranged attacks that have -Res.

You don't think that is over powered just a wee little bit?

* Using Mid's calculations and some in-game testing.

Now you're making stuff up blatantly. Recharge cap in this game is +400%, a.k.a. 1/5 the normal recharge time.

By frankenslotting for health/end mod/recharge, AB, by itself, is already down to 150 seconds. By adding in AB on yourself, you get to ~200% recharge, dropping it to 1/3 the time, or 100 seconds. Hasten provides 70%, getting you to 270% recharge, and putting hasten (assuming 3-slotted with recharge enhancements) to 121 and change seconds. From there, you can either add a fourth, or a couple small bonuses from sets (for example, Sting of the Manticore in a snipe, 5 slots, 7.5% recharge bonus, though more for a better buffer isn't a horrible idea) to get over +275% global recharge.

Now, unless City of Data has some slightly off info, RAs are 500 seconds recharge, 90 second duration, making them non-permable solo, however those are gravy on top of the already high powered boost from perma-AB/Hasten, perma-Fort, and the ability to heal for half your HP with Heal Other, whose downtime is negligible at this point.

Throw in Power Build Up for Fort, Maneuvers, and even weave (since you won't need AP or Ressurect, or possibly even Healing Aura), then some set bonuses to taste, and you're walking around with more defense than you need to softcap in incarnate content, mez protection, massive amounts of regen, endurance that doesn't run out even when you nuke (AB's +recov is far greater than a nuke's -recov), and being to-hit capped against everything in the game (except the occasional DE emanator drop or venged Nemmies).

This is all from real numbers and having played half an empath duo built around that concept, so don't try to say "you don't play empaths".

You do realize that not every superpower can stand on its own, right? Just to take an example from Heroes, Ando ended up getting the power to boost the powers of others. It doesn't give him anything he can do better to fight others, but in a large fight, he can act as a force multiplier for the others. Hey! That sounds familiar!.

And who's to say there's anything wrong with wanting to play a support role, anyway? Some heroes don't like the limelight. Heck, Stargirl (from DC comics) is the stepdaughter of Stripesy, the adult side-kick to child hero Star-Spangled Kid. And when she took up the mask, he built a robo-suit named S.T.R.I.P.E. to be his own stepdaughter's sidekick.

Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?

/jpowerranger

I don't think that's over-powered. All those percentages may look cool, but that doesn't matter if you don't have any solid attacks to back them up.

Aside from Nukes(Green Machine's main tool which works best if 8 ppl have it) and Ice's Rain powers, Defenders don't have any significant DPA attacks. So even with all those damage and recharge bonuses, your damage is unlikely reach Blaster or Scrapper levels.

Let's say you're an Emp/Sonic Defender. Even at the damage cap, a Blaster with around +150% damage into its attacks(easily achievable with Enhancements, BU, Aim, Defiance, Musculature, Assault, and set bonuses) will not only surpass your damage, but will have a myriad of better offensive skills at his disposal through his secondary and ancillary. Since Blasters can be made pretty survivable nowadays(Drain Psyche and softcapped def), are Blasters over-powered?

No, mez protection buffs aren't being made into AOE effects.

And thats the definate making up data proof for all....picking specific sentences or lines and responding to them.

Like pointing out other web sites...do you even use hero stats for eaxmple for real data no...do you you use ingame information...no...its called you are spouting about using a program and not even playing and talking about numbers you got from a web site...thank you for proving my point about what you play or dont play.

And for your second point...there is nothing ever wrong with choosing to play as a support character but that should be a players personal choice and in comic books its a character choice...but as the examples you show....those specific support characters dont have issues with for example not being able to put a their force field powers on themselves. And they can use the cosmic converter to heal themselves(which is what is was designed for) and to help others as well.

And thats thing...they dont just stay as support characters....when the time comes they can and do step up and do something...and thats what players need to be able to do.

They need to be able to use their powers on themselves when they need to....

Since you brought up All Star Squadron....remember what happened to Sandman when he got hurt very bad...he was so badly damaged that he used his device to see his own father who was in that temporal room...and what happened.....his father...the ultimate support character realized he need to take his place...so he did...his father stopped being just a support character for his son and did what needed to be done.

Oh and by the way....Excellent choiced of Series to Read...All Star Squadron.....and another one that really will remind of you this game.....with its alignment system now.....Thunderbolts from Marvel Comics.

That is a good question....the only thing actualy mentioned specificaly was defender and corruptor power sets....and not all of them either....and not all the powers.

but the beta server might shed more light on that

Do you play an Empath? AB doesn't have a fixed recharge, I have no idea what you're talking about. If you really want proof that bad, watch the video in my sig to see how fast AB can recharge.