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Uhm... yeah. That was an odd mistake. I just went ahead and fixed that, srry for the mistaken identity.
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Originally Posted by Leandro
*Scratches head.*
I did what now? I'm not Leo_G. |
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So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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That is a concern yes. But Instant Healing is the power to sacrifice. Perhaps for Brutes/Tankers move IH/APD to Tier 3 and move QR to Tier 7.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The power would probably come too late for Brutes and even Tankers.
I thought about just plain cutting Dull Pain's base recharge (in Regen for tankers specifically) to 120 seconds and calling it a day, but even though I think it would probably work, the devs' heads would explode before they would do it. |
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Another concern is that without perma-DP - which you cannot assume for balance purposes - during DP downtime the Regen tanker that took the resistance toggle would be weak to fire, cold, energy, negative, and psi, and lose instant healing to fill the gap. Making DP perma out of the box would mean Regen would have an effective 28.5% damage mitigation to everything out of the box unslotted, and 37.1% damage mitigation to all slotted. That's closer to mitigation levels tankers tend to need to take alphas, and then you have two heals and enhanced regen on top. Knocking out IH would mean separate from base performance Regen would only have MoG as its tier9 overdrive, which is not competitive due to its very short duration. IH + MoG might be too strong combined with perma-DP, but I'd probably tweak downward from there rather than upward from a set with non-perma DP and trading IH for resistance only to s/l/p.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That is a concern yes. But Instant Healing is the power to sacrifice. Perhaps for Brutes/Tankers move IH/APD to Tier 3 and move QR to Tier 7.
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As to moving APD to tier 3, I could see APD in tier 3 separate from the objection above, but IH would have to be eliminated as even an option in that case, because IH at tier 3 would be both too strong when it was up and not up often enough at low levels. That would be like saying SR can have focused senses, or Elude.
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I'd like to see Regen get put to a level where one doesn't feel the need to use Katana or Broadsword to get it to the levels of the other sets.
Fire Armor makes up for it's squishie feeling with a whole lot of damage.
Regen doesn't. :/
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I am still having trouble wrapping my brain around Regeneration and "squishie feeling". I understand that you can sometimes click too late and die, but I just do not feel squishy on any of my regen scrappers.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Fire Armor makes up for it's squishie feeling with a whole lot of damage.
Regen doesn't. :/ |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
At the price point my /Regen scrapper is at, I know I will die before other scrappers built at a similar price point. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I am still having trouble wrapping my brain around Regeneration and "squishie feeling". I understand that you can sometimes click too late and die, but I just do not feel squishy on any of my regen scrappers.
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My BS/DA is around 3-5 times more survivable than my Claws/Regen, even though I spent close to half a billion LESS on the BS/DA's build.
From what I've found, you CAN build a Regen to be ridiculously survivable, but it costs you a hell of a lot more to do than getting an SR to the same point. It will run you billions to get a Regen to the same point an SR gets to after 500 million spent.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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The biggest concern IMO from moving this set to Tankers/Brutes is the ability to deal with damage spikes. Most of the time, not all, this is coming from Sm, Le sources which is what the resist toggle is meant to cover. The toxic is there just to deal with the flavor of the set. Fire, Cold, Energy, Negative and Psi would be weaker yes. But not critically so, in my experience. You would still have Reconstruction, Dull Pain, Fast Healing and Integration by level 8 if you wanted as a Tanker. That doesn't seem too crippling. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Another concern is that without perma-DP - which you cannot assume for balance purposes - during DP downtime the Regen tanker that took the resistance toggle would be weak to fire, cold, energy, negative, and psi, and lose instant healing to fill the gap. Making DP perma out of the box would mean Regen would have an effective 28.5% damage mitigation to everything out of the box unslotted, and 37.1% damage mitigation to all slotted. That's closer to mitigation levels tankers tend to need to take alphas, and then you have two heals and enhanced regen on top. Knocking out IH would mean separate from base performance Regen would only have MoG as its tier9 overdrive, which is not competitive due to its very short duration. IH + MoG might be too strong combined with perma-DP, but I'd probably tweak downward from there rather than upward from a set with non-perma DP and trading IH for resistance only to s/l/p.
As to moving APD to tier 3, I could see APD in tier 3 separate from the objection above, but IH would have to be eliminated as even an option in that case, because IH at tier 3 would be both too strong when it was up and not up often enough at low levels. That would be like saying SR can have focused senses, or Elude. |
And in any event, I'm not sure Instant Healing is a better power. When it's with you, it's godly of course, but in a set with so clicks, it would be nice to just have some bit of sturdiness without having to click for it. I'm not sold on this debuff resistance that folks are asking for here which is why I stayed out of the thread.
Lastly, you're certainly correct that IH would be a poor choice for a Tier 3 for the reasons you stated. But Regen isn't really paced well for Tankers/Brutes so it might be necessary for a redesign for those ATs, similar but a bit more extensive than what happened to Electric Armor.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It will run you billions to get a Regen to the same point an SR gets to after 500 million spent.
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This was what I was talking about earlier. Price points make a big difference. I think 500 million is a drop in the bucket to a lot of 50's in the current game. It's not even 5 LotG. Any level 50 I play has well over a billion invested. Some sets do better with less. But the fact that the potential to relatively easily drop a few billion on a toon exists, makes it hard to balance and compare. My DM/SD is an inf hog - but also a beast, probably the best toon I have. Limit him to 500 million and it's balanced.
Similar problem for Doms. If they can spend enough to perma-Dom, they get silly good. Very difficult to compare the relative set value of a perma-Dom to a non. More like impossible, imo.
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I've felt more durable with /WP, /INV (not even at 50), /SR, and /Shield than I have with /Regen (that isn't Katana...Broadsword is likely the same, but I don't care to play that set)
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I am still having trouble wrapping my brain around Regeneration and "squishie feeling". I understand that you can sometimes click too late and die, but I just do not feel squishy on any of my regen scrappers.
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Although I really do think Regen needs some general help overall (some debuff resistance, possibly letting IH and INT be fully enhanceable again, now that Perma-IH is no longer a factor), I'd really honestly be satisified if they would just fix Revive at least.
Letting me actually use Revive in the manner for which it's intended (ie getting up and continuing the fight ... like, oh I don't know, a regenerating super-hero should do ... or say the FREAKSHOW DO GET TO DO!) would really solve most of my overall complaints with Regen.
Fight, fight, burst heal, fight, drop, STAND UP and KEEP FIGHTING, soliliquey ("Ha! Foul Evil-Doer's, you can't stop me that easily!")
Trouble is right now its:
Fight, fight, burst heal, fight, drop, stand up, DROP AGAIN BEFORE THE ANIMATION FOR STANDING UP EVEN FINISHES ANIMATING!, get p.o.'d in frustration and respec out of a worthless power.
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
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Seriously, I'm wondering if my idea is balanced. You know, the one with revive that basically recharges all your regen clicks.|
Originally Posted by Soulwind
Although I really do think Regen needs some general help overall (some debuff resistance, possibly letting IH and INT be fully enhanceable again, now that Perma-IH is no longer a factor), I'd really honestly be satisified if they would just fix Revive at least.
Letting me actually use Revive in the manner for which it's intended (ie getting up and continuing the fight ... like, oh I don't know, a regenerating super-hero should do ... or say the FREAKSHOW DO GET TO DO!) would really solve most of my overall complaints with Regen. Fight, fight, burst heal, fight, drop, STAND UP and KEEP FIGHTING, soliliquey ("Ha! Foul Evil-Doer's, you can't stop me that easily!") Trouble is right now its: Fight, fight, burst heal, fight, drop, stand up, DROP AGAIN BEFORE THE ANIMATION FOR STANDING UP EVEN FINISHES ANIMATING!, get p.o.'d in frustration and respec out of a worthless power. |
The way I see it, Revive wouldn't make you untouchable (because then you'd still be able to attack) but rather 'untargetable' and/or 'phased' in an 'Only Affecting Self' period for 3-5 seconds. The enemies would basically be able to turn and watch you get up, but merely witness the revival. This gives you just enough time to activate Integration and then queue up a click. Not only that but, if you fought to the last click but still died, now all your clicks would be available again for round two. No longer would you have to stop and wait for one of your clicks to recharge before pressing Revive.
Well, it's just my opinion of course, but I think having all your click powers recharge instantly (if it's even possible) would be overpowered.
All the other self-rez powers simply have that 10-15 seconds of "you can't hurt me" while they are animating and you're getting up. I'd think that would be good enough for Revive as well.
In game terms it could be viewed as you using all your available regenerating powers to come back from the brink, so that's why your other clicks are (probably) already used up.
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
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Well, looking at the numbers (Scrapper):|
Originally Posted by Soulwind
Well, it's just my opinion of course, but I think having all your click powers recharge instantly (if it's even possible) would be overpowered.
All the other self-rez powers simply have that 10-15 seconds of "you can't hurt me" while they are animating and you're getting up. I'd think that would be good enough for Revive as well. In game terms it could be viewed as you using all your available regenerating powers to come back from the brink, so that's why your other clicks are (probably) already used up. |
Soul Transfer = 20% HP per target (I think), 30% END per target returned and a *MAG 30* 12sec stun on top of 15 sec of untouchability. You can probably enhance that to a 20sec stun if you want.
Rise of the Phoenix = 50% HP and 50% END returned, a mag 4 15 sec stun, mag 8 KB, 15 sec of untouchability and 333 fire dmg! Base! For reference, Lightning Rod/SC do 290 dmg base....and RotP has a bigger radius.
Resurgence = 80% HP and 50% END returned as well as a 28% dmg buff, +21% ToHit, +200% recovery and +100% rech for 90sec.
The thing about self-rezzes are, they usually have a bit of overpoweredness to them because they require you to die. But they fulfill the set's theme very well. Even with just untouchability added to Revive, I'd still find it underpowered compared to the others. If I died on my Regen, it's most likely because I didn't have any clicks left so 10-15sec of untouchability would basically amount to 'Toggle Ninja Run > Get out of there!' which I guess is much better than what we have but it still sux compared to Rise of the Phoenix or even Resurgence.
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The problem is that you're comparing to two sets that have a rez in place of a tier 9 defensive power and one that has a tier 9 with permanently fixed uptime.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well, looking at the numbers (Scrapper):
Soul Transfer = 20% HP per target (I think), 30% END per target returned and a *MAG 30* 12sec stun on top of 15 sec of untouchability. You can probably enhance that to a 20sec stun if you want. Rise of the Phoenix = 50% HP and 50% END returned, a mag 4 15 sec stun, mag 8 KB, 15 sec of untouchability and 333 fire dmg! Base! For reference, Lightning Rod/SC do 290 dmg base....and RotP has a bigger radius. Resurgence = 80% HP and 50% END returned as well as a 28% dmg buff, +21% ToHit, +200% recovery and +100% rech for 90sec. The thing about self-rezzes are, they usually have a bit of overpoweredness to them because they require you to die. But they fulfill the set's theme very well. Even with just untouchability added to Revive, I'd still find it underpowered compared to the others. If I died on my Regen, it's most likely because I didn't have any clicks left so 10-15sec of untouchability would basically amount to 'Toggle Ninja Run > Get out of there!' which I guess is much better than what we have but it still sux compared to Rise of the Phoenix or even Resurgence. |
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...with a set whose tier 9 last 15 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The problem is that you're comparing to two sets that have a rez in place of a tier 9 defensive power and one that has a tier 9 with permanently fixed uptime.
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I've been wondering how regen would play if IH was a toggle, but its (heal and end cost) values were greatly suppressed OUT of combat. When something does damage, the instant healing would kick in for a few seconds. Kind of the reverse of the caregiver day job power.
Then again I'm no game designer; I get the feeling it wouldn't really address any issues.
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And yet somehow manages to be incredibly useful. I sure wouldn't trade it for an improved rez.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
...with a set whose tier 9 last 15 seconds.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
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Who said anything about trading it in for something else?
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Originally Posted by Werner
And yet somehow manages to be incredibly useful. I sure wouldn't trade it for an improved rez.
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To be fair, Instant Healing is, for all practical purposes, a "tier 9" power. The fact that Regen gets its god mode at tier 7, doesn't mean it lacks one. That said, WP has a god mode (well demi-god mode) and a rez with other stuff (although WP's rez suffers the exact same problem as Regen's, IME, you get up and die before all those nice buffs can really help or you wait around for your team to clear if teamed).|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
...with a set whose tier 9 last 15 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
If I died on my Regen, it's most likely because I didn't have any clicks left so 10-15sec of untouchability would basically amount to 'Toggle Ninja Run > Get out of there!' which I guess is much better than what we have but it still sux compared to Rise of the Phoenix or even Resurgence.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
Am I reading Arcanaville differently than you?|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Who said anything about trading it in for something else?
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"The problem is that you're comparing to two sets that have a rez in place of a tier 9 defensive power and one that has a tier 9 with permanently fixed uptime."So, as an example of what is being compared:
Regen = sucky rez, good tier 9To which I reply, in regards to Moment of Glory:
Fire = awesome rez, no tier 9
"I sure wouldn't trade it for an improved rez."So I'm looking at what is being compared, or at least what it sounds to me like Arcanaville says is being compared, and I'm saying which I'd rather have. I'm saying that if the choice WAS the current Regen tier 9 or Fire's tier 9 rez, I'd prefer Regen's tier 9.
No, I don't think anyone said, "Hey, know what I think we should do to improve Regeneration? We should get rid of Moment of Glory and enhance the rez!" But I don't think it's fair to use something like Fire's awesome rez as a reason for buffing Regen's rez without acknowledging that one way Fire pays for that awesome rez is by not having a tier 9.
I agree that Regen's rez could use a bit of a buff. I just don't think "like those other sets" is a road I want to go down, because I'm afraid of where that road might lead.
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Lets just get rid of those rez powers and replace them with a..... say a mass teleport foe kinda thing... 
hmmmm...... grav troller.....
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I actually find I often die with a click or two still unused. However, I do not dislike your idea, but I do not think all the clicks should recharge. I can easily see doing Recon, it already recharges fast anyway. Possibly MoG.
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Originally Posted by Werner
So I'm looking at what is being compared, or at least what it sounds to me like Arcanaville says is being compared, and I'm saying which I'd rather have. I'm saying that if the choice WAS the current Regen tier 9 or Fire's tier 9 rez, I'd prefer Regen's tier 9.
No, I don't think anyone said, "Hey, know what I think we should do to improve Regeneration? We should get rid of Moment of Glory and enhance the rez!" But I don't think it's fair to use something like Fire's awesome rez as a reason for buffing Regen's rez without acknowledging that one way Fire pays for that awesome rez is by not having a tier 9. I agree that Regen's rez could use a bit of a buff. I just don't think "like those other sets" is a road I want to go down, because I'm afraid of where that road might lead. |
I can see the idea being quite powerful. But more powerful than the other rezzes within the context of their set? It's certainly not an EB stunner or a nuke with a phase of not being able to die...so I think, perhaps limiting the insta-recharge to just Dull Pain and Reconstruction or maybe just MoG...
That said, the way the tier 9 rezzes seem to be represented by yourself really seems to downplay the advantages of the sets. FA can be built to have some solid resists, a fast heal and a near-broken AoE that makes the set ideal for farming and fast kills. Dark Armor doesn't *need* a tier 9 to be practically unkillable. They get the rezzes *on top* of their already solid performance and it's definitely not a drawback or anything.
Looking at regen and there might be room for improvement over all, and not just the rez, which simply is a mediocre/subpar ability compared to even the *TEMP POWER* Resuscitation.
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One of them does. The other one lasts longer, the other one no one else has.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
...with a set whose tier 9 last 15 seconds.
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We're talking past each other so badly there's no reason to continue. You seem to be arguing with points I'm not making. You seem to think I'm arguing with points you're not making.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well, the idea I proposed was just that: an idea. And it was an idea, *specifically* conceived to *not* be a rez "like those other sets". You tell me where I said give Regen Fire Aura's rez, because I know I didn't. I simply pointed to the data of how lacking Regen's rez is by comparison. And for what purpose does it lag behind? So I propose something different, a *short* untargetable phase and your clicks back, to fit the motif better (IMO) than just 15sec of untouchable.
I can see the idea being quite powerful. But more powerful than the other rezzes within the context of their set? It's certainly not an EB stunner or a nuke with a phase of not being able to die...so I think, perhaps limiting the insta-recharge to just Dull Pain and Reconstruction or maybe just MoG... That said, the way the tier 9 rezzes seem to be represented by yourself really seems to downplay the advantages of the sets. FA can be built to have some solid resists, a fast heal and a near-broken AoE that makes the set ideal for farming and fast kills. Dark Armor doesn't *need* a tier 9 to be practically unkillable. They get the rezzes *on top* of their already solid performance and it's definitely not a drawback or anything. Looking at regen and there might be room for improvement over all, and not just the rez, which simply is a mediocre/subpar ability compared to even the *TEMP POWER* Resuscitation. |
The really ludicrous part of it is that I agree with you. Strange how agreement can devolve like this.
So I'm out.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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I thought about just plain cutting Dull Pain's base recharge (in Regen for tankers specifically) to 120 seconds and calling it a day, but even though I think it would probably work, the devs' heads would explode before they would do it.
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