Sounds like there were not enough tanks/brutes on the trial. This happens to my toons all the time when there are only 2-3 other tanks/brutes. Far too many players don't understand how aggro works and they think just attacking with their tank is enough.
Not 2.
I'd say it was a mixture of 1 and 3. You can't do more aggro with damage but you can increase the length of time that you have aggro, and attacks, holds, gauntlet etc from other players reduce this time.
Without being there ... but I'd guess d) all of the above, especially 1) and 3) on your list. At +3 both your taunting and damage will be more effective, and if you were noting more difficulty for the league in defeating things chances are good that what aggro was being generated across the league (not just by you) was getting spread thinner across more spawns/mobs resulting in your aggro being even more proportionately great vs the AV's who were your main focus.
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Uhhh...what?|
Originally Posted by _Klaw_
Not 2.
I'd say it was a mixture of 1 and 3. You can't do more aggro with damage but you can increase the length of time that you have aggro, and attacks, holds, gauntlet etc from other players reduce this time. |
Attacks and other effects from other players don't reduce the time that you have aggro. And doing damage yourself doesn't increase the time that you have aggro. Doing more damage adds to your Threat level, which isn't a time value.
The only part of the Threat formula that cares about time is the (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000) value that is there, but nothing that another player does can reduce that.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I had the same problem with a 15-player BAF, though as soon as I got two warnings I would go around the corner of the building to avoid being sequestered. I got two warnings about five times. I think we only had three taunters. After a while I started beating on adds as soon as I got one warning, and that seemed to help.|
Originally Posted by stark_NA
What do you think? I'm not complaining, as I still really enjoy the game, but it confused me as to why this group was having so much more difficulty than I've seen in past groups.
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When I see another player get two warnings I will immediately taunt the AV (if I don't have already have two myself). On small teams you have to be really careful: when you get two warnings you should immediately get away from the rest of the team so that they don't go down with you.
So, your problem was either too few taunters on the team, or people who weren't paying attention to what was going on around them and letting you get sequestered.
The AVs don't seem to follow me when I duck around the corner after the second warning; I'm not sure whether it's because they're usually surrounded and can't move or if there's some special code that stops them from pursuing you. But even if they do follow, that's better than having everyone around you getting sequestered.
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I do this as well: I can't help but think it's "best practice" and good for the league's performance, but I'm not sure everyone else does this |
Originally Posted by Rodion
When I see another player get two warnings I will immediately taunt the AV (if I don't have already have two myself).
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Except attacking is enough if other aggro-grabbing players know what they're doing.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Sounds like there were not enough tanks/brutes on the trial. This happens to my toons all the time when there are only 2-3 other tanks/brutes. Far too many players don't understand how aggro works and they think just attacking with their tank is enough.
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Be it ego or ignorance, plenty of melees choose to taunt regularly during the Nightstar/Siege fight and doom themselves to sequestration when they pull more aggro than they can quickly pass off. It's far easier to hand off aggro for a sequestration cycle if you're not generating an excessive amount of aggro with unnecessary taunting.
PenanceжTriage
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Im cornfuzzeled by this. Does that mean the TauntDurationRemaining has various times that it starts at depending on who is doing the taunting? Cuz the AV's change targets pretty quick sometimes. And it seems to me, that when my Brute drops a red pill, and hits way harder, I get attacked more. I always assumed my threat level rose with my damage dealt. Which one beats out the other one, a succesful taunt, or threat level?
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Uhhh...what?
Attacks and other effects from other players don't reduce the time that you have aggro. And doing damage yourself doesn't increase the time that you have aggro. Doing more damage adds to your Threat level, which isn't a time value. The only part of the Threat formula that cares about time is the (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000) value that is there, but nothing that another player does can reduce that. |
Le Blanc 50 Dark/Dark Scrap
High Huntress 50 Archery/NRG Blast
And a goatload of others. On a goatload of servers.
Official Rickroller of Hero Con 1
I hope this is on-topic enough not to hijack the OP's thread, but the discussion brings up several questions in my mind. I haven't played my brute in a BAF yet (nor my tank, who is not yet 50) and I'm not sure I fully understand how I should deal with the sequestering on them. It sounds like some of you are saying that taunting aggro to yourself when you see another player get warned is recommended, but then what? Is it best to simply continue attacking and lay off taunting, and always to move away when the 2nd warning pops? Advice is appreciated. Thanks.
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The threat formula (simplified) is as such:|
Originally Posted by Le Blanc
Im cornfuzzeled by this. Does that mean the TauntDurationRemaining has various times that it starts at depending on who is doing the taunting? Cuz the AV's change targets pretty quick sometimes. And it seems to me, that when my Brute drops a red pill, and hits way harder, I get attacked more. I always assumed my threat level rose with my damage dealt. Which one beats out the other one, a succesful taunt, or threat level?
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Threat = Damage * AT Mod * AI Mod * RangeMod * DebuffMod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000)
So, let's take two characters that are doing roughly the same damage, but one's a Tanker, and one is a Blaster (I know that the Blaster will normally out damage the Tanker by a large margin, but this is just for an example). We'll assume that both are using attacks that have a single debuff value, and that the AI Mod and RangeMod are the same on both.
Blaster Threat = 100 * 1 * AI Mod * RangeMod * 2 * 1 = 200
Tanker Threat = 100 * 4 * AI Mod * RangeMod * 2 * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000) = 800 * (TauntDurationRemaning * 1,000)
Now, that means that the Tanker has 4 times the Threat level, not factoring in Taunt or Gauntlet. Now, let's assume that he's just using Gauntlet, so now it's 800 * 13,500 = 10,800,000 Threat. If he just used Taunt, it goes up to 800 * 45,000 = 36,000,000. Compared to the Blaster's Threat, the Tanker is gaining way more Threat.
Now, we know that Threat decays over time. So, as that TauntDurationRemaining value falls, so is overall Threat. So if the person with aggro backs off, they should lose aggro to somebody that is doing damage and applying gauntlet effects pretty quickly, and to a much lesser extent, to somebody just doing damage.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
So AV's always go for the highest threat level? What if 2 AT's end up being the same Threat Level? Who does the AV go after? I'm trying to get this figured out. I have sometimes pulled aggro with my blaster from targets. But if I am reading these numbers right, that should just about never happen. Well, if a Tank or Brute is in there anyway.
Le Blanc 50 Dark/Dark Scrap
High Huntress 50 Archery/NRG Blast
And a goatload of others. On a goatload of servers.
Official Rickroller of Hero Con 1
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Certainly when the second warning pops you want to get away from the other players on your team because any other players caught within the warning circle around you when you get sequestered (held) will get sequestered as well. So back out and try to make sure no one is in your circle in case you get that last warning anyway.|
Originally Posted by Crystal_Smoke
I hope this is on-topic enough not to hijack the OP's thread, but the discussion brings up several questions in my mind. I haven't played my brute in a BAF yet (nor my tank, who is not yet 50) and I'm not sure I fully understand how I should deal with the sequestering on them. It sounds like some of you are saying that taunting aggro to yourself when you see another player get warned is recommended, but then what? Is it best to simply continue attacking and lay off taunting, and always to move away when the 2nd warning pops? Advice is appreciated. Thanks.
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I've had the problem in the OP a couple times and yes, I think it's just players that don't know how to handle aggro being unable to take it from me. It's very frustrating to be taken out of the action like that, especially when there's a participation metric following your every move. Run in, swing twice, get two warnings, back out or go to the adds, get sequestered because even after backing off you still have aggro. Repeat. Ugh.
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That's exactly it: I was running out, being well away from either AV, identifying a good add I could target instead and then sequestered. and i look back and there's not a single melee person at the AV who sequestered me.|
Originally Posted by Dromio
I've had the problem in the OP a couple times and yes, I think it's just players that don't know how to handle aggro being unable to take it from me. It's very frustrating to be taken out of the action like that, especially when there's a participation metric following your every move. Run in, swing twice, get two warnings, back out or go to the adds, get sequestered because even after backing off you still have aggro. Repeat. Ugh.
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I think, in the end, it was simply "not enough tanks/brutes" (and perhaps those who were there weren't experienced with aggro management).
Sure, I can run around a corner and de-aggro that way, but if the AV follows me and then separates from the group, that's not good either, is it?
I find it hilarious when my Cold/Ice Defender steals some aggro from the Tanks/Brutes and gets sequestered.
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You think that's hilarious, I managed to get two warnings on an Ill/TA controller when on a team with two tanks and a brute...with Phantom Army out! Was laughing my tail off.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
I find it hilarious when my Cold/Ice Defender steals some aggro from the Tanks/Brutes and gets sequestered.
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68 Level 50s, all made the old-fashioned way.
Original: Quasar Lad - Fire/Kin troller. Latest: Asp Kicker - Grav/Poison troller.
Completed the "Full Alty Challenge" - level 50 in every archetype, and "Alty's Ultimate Power Challenge" - level 50 in every available powerset in the game.
Member of the Repeat Offenders
squishy tanks ftw
Noone mentioned option E. You got sequestered because goofball near you didn't pay attention?
The more people I meet, the more I'm beginning to root for the zombies.
I happened to notice something really stupid today, simply because I was playing a very tall tank. The Sequester Warning rings SCALE WITH BODY SIZE. That's awfully dumb, isn't it? The Sequester presumably has a fixed radius and this means the visible rings don't actually tell you if you are in danger due to being too close to someone who has aggro.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
Did you bug it? The Big Bubbles used to do the same thing until they were fixed to be a constant size.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
I happened to notice something really stupid today, simply because I was playing a very tall tank. The Sequester Warning rings SCALE WITH BODY SIZE. That's awfully dumb, isn't it? The Sequester presumably has a fixed radius and this means the visible rings don't actually tell you if you are in danger due to being too close to someone who has aggro.
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Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
OK, so first thing's first: I don't claim, by any stretch of the imagination, to be a master of this game. I enjoy it and have my 81 month badge, but that's not saying I'm an expert!
I did notice that it took MUCH longer to take out the two AVs (and as a group we did VERY poorly on locking down the rebel breakout: 18/20!) so maybe it was simply a low DPS group (everyone's switched to their alts to get their slots unlocked?)
That being said:
With my tank (the character I've progressed furthest in the incarnate system) I routinely join pickup groups to do the incarnate trials. Sometimes people aren't paying attention and things are not as good as other times, sometimes people aren't as good playing their characters or they have poor builds: it's all good! I like the fact that you can find high level pickup groups to do fun missions so often!
Last night in BAF, however, I noticed something odd that I hadn't noticed before:
When I would attack Nightstar or Siege, I would almost guaranteed take aggro and get "First Warning" within 5 seconds, regardless of my aggro status. Second warning would follow quickly, and I would back off to let my aggro drop. Then I'd get sequestered (happened 4 or 5 times in a row.)
Usually, when I'm playing the same character in the same BAF, the aggro would switch to someone else and I could wait for attention to drop from me and then head back into the battle. This wasn't working! I'm curious, though, as to WHY. Here are my best guesses:
1 - This is the first run of BAF I've had with both incarnate shifts and my alpha level shift, so I'm at 50(+3). Does higher level mean that much more aggro?
2 - Did something change in the last patch? I know there were some Lambda tweaks, but were there BAF tweaks as well?
3 - Could it be that we simply had a group that wasn't balanced the right way and it was causing us to do less damage and less aggro, so my aggro was "bullying" out the other players?
I'm built for DEF and TAUNT (I don't die very often at all, but it takes me FOREVER to kill anything, as I am NOT built for +Damage
What do you think? I'm not complaining, as I still really enjoy the game, but it confused me as to why this group was having so much more difficulty than I've seen in past groups.