Probably too late, but something to chew on...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-05-24 20:04 in Mission Architect
This is basically what I used to do when I was still playing AE content. As long as an arc is better than what we get from the devs, I would 5 star it. If the arc was flawed but had potential, I would not rate it.
There are way too many people here who consider an AE arc must rival the work of Shakespeare to be even considered a 5 stars voting. (except of course, their own arc....).
I remember being 4 or 3 starred on "feathers and fur" because "the arc is great but I think I don't really care for the story". And that meant going further down on the list...
Net gain: fire farms getting Hall of Fame. I can't believe the AE community got outsmarted by farmers.
The irony.
[COLOR=darkorchid]Nebulhym's AE Arcs: Try them now![/COLOR]
# 12647: Of feathers and fur...[COLOR=yellow]Winner of [B]The American Legion[/B]'s January 2011 AE Author Contest![/COLOR]
# 292389: From Tartarus with love...
# 459592: Interdimensional Headache
Even Shakespeare had some bombs. Go read Titus Andronicus some time. 
That said, I love the concept of the AE, and, admittedly, I like using it to put my own work out there. However, I do realize that it's not all about me and about my own stuff. Other people deserve the right to do their things, too.
I'm out of signature space! Arcs by Tubbius of Justice are HERE: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=218177
I use AE to further character plots that work better in a scripted environment or events that are best done not in real time. Are they insightful deep arcs? Nope. Do they make sense to people outside my RP group? Sometimes. Would I ever spend 80 hours on a single AE arc? F--- no, that's not what its about for me, more than 3ish and I'm seriously doing something disastrously wrong
If you want to do so, and market your arc, aim for recognition, try to get it into the hands of reviewers and make it to the front page, that's awesome, but a whole lot of us just use it casually, on one off arcs for an SG night or character backgrounds and never visit the forums. I admit I'm only here because of the filter issue....we all care about AE as a resource, way more than our own specific content, but its not our number one....sometimes not even in our top 5...concern regarding the game, so while we may not be vocal, yeah, we do care about it
Quote:
*waits patiently while zombie Shakespeare kills Tubbius' children, bakes them into a lasagna and makes him eat it.*
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Originally Posted by Tubbius
Even Shakespeare had some bombs. Go read Titus Andronicus some time.
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That blue thing running around saying "Cookies are sometimes food" is Praetorian Cookie Monster!
Shoot on sight, please.
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Outsmarted? Hardly. Outnumbered? Certainly.|
Originally Posted by Nebulhym
Net gain: fire farms getting Hall of Fame. I can't believe the AE community got outsmarted by farmers.
The irony. |
Oh and SupaFreak, well said.
Having to go through all my arcs to find out which ones work after the last patch has made me realize that I still love making arcs. So I'm going to try to make some more. Again. I have a crude idea for another VEAT arc... and I'm still thinking about that Incarnate challenge arc I started on months ago... and, and, and...
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
I have 3 more arcs written out fairly completely in note form, and I dusted them off before logging back in after my extended haitus, thinking I'd get working on them. But this copyright thing really took ythe wind out of my sails. I can't be arsed. One of my live arcs is unplayable because 'Name field contains copyright/profane word', and it won't tell me which one it is so I can't do anything about it. I'm not going to bother writing any more if next week they'll be rendered useless by another 'fix'.
In short, i used to be passionate about the MA (my own and others' arcs) and about CoH as a whole. Now, I'm not passionate about either.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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MCM, they fixed SOME stuff a couple days ago or so. When's the last time you checked?
I'm out of signature space! Arcs by Tubbius of Justice are HERE: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=218177
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I'm very passionate about AE and I've adopted a similar rating/reviewing method over time. I still feel downrates have their place, tho, as there needs to be a way to distinguish the better arcs from the pack.|
Originally Posted by SupaFreak
Ask yourself: [I]Are you truly passionate about Architect Entertainment or just your creations?
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One of the best things we, as a community, can do is give constructive feedback. A low rate and no comment doesn't help anybody. There's a million different reasons someone can downrate a story arc, but if they don't tell you why, you can't judge whether it's something you can improve or not.
I try to keep my comments very objective, highlighting aspects I liked and focusing suggestions on technical elements that can be improved.
It's unfortunate that the rating system favors Farms over Story Arcs. Farms have a distinct advantage in many aspects:
They're quickOTOH, a Story Arc:
Convenient
Beneficial to replay
Beneficial to play with a team
Maximized for OBJECTIVE rewards
Judged/Rated on OBJECTIVE rewards
Is often better experienced soloThe true solution to this can only come from an overhaul of the system which has been discussed many times. And, despite the flawed system we have, I'll still do my best to promote playing story arcs and support the Æuthors & players that make AE so much fun!
Requires a slower pace to read
Requires a substantial time commitment
Has very little replay value
Offers low-to-average objective rewards
Judged more on subjective merits
Craft your inventions in AE!!
Play "Crafter's Cafe" - Arc #487283. A 1 mission, NON-COMBAT AE arc with workable invention tables!
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One way is to add a note in our Souvenirs to "Hey, if you liked my arc... try this author's arc which is very similar in style!" since probably a substantial amount that stumble upon an arc rarely frequent the boards.| I'm very passionate about AE and I've adopted a similar rating/reviewing method over time. I still feel downrates have their place, tho, as there needs to be a way to distinguish the better arcs from the pack. |
I may not be a big fan of some people's writing style (heck, I'm not a big fan of some Dev's writing style)... and the same is going to hold true for mine. But to me anymore what matters is it's a valid attempt and I can only hope they'll take any feedback and try to improve on it and update me if it gets updated. (I do)
Plus with now over 500,000 Arcs to choose from (wonder how many of them are actually legit story attempts)... it's getting harder and harder to find the gems.
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Hey, wouldn't it be nice if the search function had a built in "people who liked this arc also liked...." feature? Something that has been suggested multiple times....|
Originally Posted by SupaFreak
One way is to add a note in our Souvenirs to "Hey, if you liked my arc... try this author's arc which is very similar in style!" since probably a substantial amount that stumble upon an arc rarely frequent the boards.
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| Plus with now over 500,000 Arcs to choose from (wonder how many of them are actually legit story attempts)... it's getting harder and harder to find the gems. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I think this is a major point that I don't think gets acknowledged nearly as much as it should be. I mean, it's why farms are simply able to do better if all other factors were equal. Story arcs have to fit so many different criteria for whether or not entirely different people view it as good. Farms just come down whether or not you got xp/tickets regardless of anything else with the design. This also affects advertising. With subjective views out of the way, it's pretty easy to just sit in Atlas and broadcast easy xp as opposed to looking for someone who has the same tastes in story and mission design.
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Originally Posted by BackFire
It's unfortunate that the rating system favors Farms over Story Arcs. Farms have a distinct advantage in many aspects:
Judged/Rated on OBJECTIVE rewardsOTOH, a Story Arc: Judged more on subjective merits |
i think the core of this problem is the fact that the rating system is flawed, the hall of fame requirements are flawed, and the search/filtering interface is flawed
if poeple could filter out farms that would help authors find stuff they actually want to play
if the rating system was fixed, they would make non farms be able to get somewhere
if the hall of fame requirements were changed, we would see more of them pop up, and if they were smart about it would just disallow farms from getting hall of fame status
i also agree with supafreak, i am a mediocre story teller at best and thats why i only have 1 story arc, im much better at numbers and such and yes i do have several different AE farms so i can run them with multiple types of toons. one of the biggest reasons i dont play more AE arcs is the lack of rewards, i hate how AE basically disallows purples and shards unless its a dev choice with normal rewards.
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Agreed. YouTube switched from a 5-star system to a like/dislike system and I, personally feel that this sort of thing works a LOT better.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i think the core of this problem is the fact that the rating system is flawed, the hall of fame requirements are flawed, and the search/filtering interface is flawed
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| if poeple could filter out farms that would help authors find stuff they actually want to play |
Ironically, behaviors like in the OP is likely why I stopped playing legitimate arcs in AE in the first place and just used it for farms. Too much 4 and 5 stars arcs being actually pretty meh. "I rated your arc 5 stars, please play and rate mine" ruined the system more than anything else IMHO.
I play another game which also uses a 5 star system for player generated content, and for the most part people vote somewhat accurately there, so you know you're playing an OKish map if you pick a 3 stars one and a really, really good one if you pick a 4.5 stars one. Ratings are meaningless if everyone gets a 5, and players are the one who pay the price by having to wade through a bazillion bad arcs to get an actual good one.
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I have three questions about this other game:|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I play another game which also uses a 5 star system for player generated content, and for the most part people vote somewhat accurately there, so you know you're playing an OKish map if you pick a 3 stars one and a really, really good one if you pick a 4.5 stars one. Ratings are meaningless if everyone gets a 5, and players are the one who pay the price by having to wade through a bazillion bad arcs to get an actual good one.
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- Is it actually an MMO?
- How large is the general number of plays/rates?
- Do the devs police it in any form?
The first two questions are the one's that interest me the most. I'll explain why after I find out your answers.
Not a MMO, no devs for it (so no moderation except to remove duplicate votes from IP hopping and "troll" votes), mere dozens of rates on average, plays not tracked.
You can obviously argue this is a completely different situation, but my point doesn't stop at video games. I've never seen in life a rating system where everyone gets an A+ for trying to be worth it in the long run. One could draw an obvious parallel to current western school systems etc..
It may be a different situation but the concept is probably worth paying attention too. Well, if it weren't for the whole policy about mentioning other games. I think an MMO by design fundamentally pushes people away from paying attention to the story, even if it were a player that would otherwise enjoy it. For quite a while I've been feeling that AE suffered because it got introduced to the wrong genre.
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I would love a Like/Dislike option vs the 5 star system.| Agreed. YouTube switched from a 5-star system to a like/dislike system and I, personally feel that this sort of thing works a LOT better. |
Actually, I feel I am using Like/Dislike in a sense...
No Vote = Dislike (it's so far off from final, it's not funny)
5 Stars = Like (even if it may still need improving)
Is that wrong? o.O
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The problem I see here with downrating is... most likely the downvoter will not return to replay the arc to see if it has improved to their tastes.|
Originally Posted by BackFire
I still feel downrates have their place, tho, as there needs to be a way to distinguish the better arcs from the pack.
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Case in point...
The Fractured Dreamer by @theHedron
I picked it for the AEnvasion of Guardian for its potential...
Who has replayed it to see how much better it is?
o.O
Why should he/she get stuck with a 3 or 4 for where it was?
Again... my message to authors in comments is usually...
"My challenge to you is this: Live up to the 5 stars"
The system ain't perfect and neither are we authors...
My thinking is we're friends here, not overbearing nuns with wooden rulers to discipline each other.
The reason I gave up on creating AE arcs was absolute obscurity.
I'd spend a week or more carefully crafting the missions and interesting custom groups, while testing for solo balance vs teamed. Then I'd spend a week polishing the text, correcting errors and doing test runs.
Then I'd publish and instantly vanish into the void.
A week later, still showing 0 plays.
A month later, still showing 0 plays.
2 months later I had 1 play!! But no stars or comments...
So I just figured the lead in wasn't tempting enough. I'd make another one. Then another one. Eventually though I realized I was never going to get anyone to stumble on mine in amongst the flaxom without pimping it out by advertising here and ingame.
I didn't want to do that. I just wanted to create cool stories that players could scroll down and go hmm, sounds like a job for!
So I stopped creating. Months later I would grow tired of the endless amounts of wasted time searching for decent stories among all the junk.
I did toy around with creating 'one off' adventures for some of my core characters to playout parts of their story.
I also ran an Archnemesis campaign for a bit. I'd take the backstory for your toon and then create their Arch Nem and set up various missions for you. But the time involved combined with the thankless nature of some of the participants soured me on the concept.
Now I just use the AE buildings for quick inspiration refills.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
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I've been thinking, the push for getting 5 stars is a side effect of the simple and understandable desire to simply get plays at all. Even counting 5 star ratings, there's some really weird calculations going on for how the system chooses what arc comes sooner.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
The reason I gave up on creating AE arcs was absolute obscurity.
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Quote:
| I also ran an Archnemesis campaign for a bit. I'd take the backstory for your toon and then create their Arch Nem and set up various missions for you. But the time involved combined with the thankless nature of some of the participants soured me on the concept. |
Here ya go!
Wow, I hadn't realized it'd been so long ago, just happened to be the last one in my subs list. The 1st few players I had interested really made it a blast. Sadly, as weeks went by I ended up having 3 arcs up with no comments from the players and no reply to /tells(taunts) so I moved on.
Was much fun though!
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
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I really think this illustrates what I consider to be one of our big problems: it is too hard for players to find fun story arcs to play.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
I realized I was never going to get anyone to stumble on mine in amongst the flaxom without pimping it out by advertising here and ingame.
.... So I stopped creating. Months later I would grow tired of the endless amounts of wasted time searching for decent stories among all the junk. |
I've tried to help with this by creating the Contact Tree for MA Arcs, and the Excellent Arcs thread also helps with this. I think this helps some, but truthfully, it's not enough -- my (or ArrowRose's) personal tastes don't match everyone's, and despite playing 200+ story arcs, I still have played less than a fraction of 1% of all story arcs in the system. And my feeling is that players who actually come here and read the MA forum are a tiny minority of the total number of players interested in AE arcs.
A better solution would be some sort of improved in-game tools for finding story arcs. Features like "If you liked this arc, you might like these arcs" and favorites lists like "@Soandso's Favorite Arcs" or "Top 10 Science Fiction Arcs" would help immensely with this. These are standard features on many media sites, so should be easy to implement (for the devs) and easy to understand (for users).
@PW - Police Woman (50 AR/dev blaster on Liberty)
TALOS - PW war journal - alternate contact tree using MA story arcs
=VICE= "Give me Liberty, or give me debt!"
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Oh course we all agree but, we've been over this time and time again. The problem is that the Devs need to see MA as a priority and they don't. We have waxed on about easy solutions and ways to make MA or accessible or better, but it doesn't matter a hill of beans if the people that can make it happen don't care.|
Originally Posted by PoliceWoman
A better solution would be some sort of improved in-game tools for finding story arcs. Features like "If you liked this arc, you might like these arcs" and favorites lists like "@Soandso's Favorite Arcs" or "Top 10 Science Fiction Arcs" would help immensely with this. These are standard features on many media sites, so should be easy to implement (for the devs) and easy to understand (for users).
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WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
Ask yourself: Are you truly passionate about Architect Entertainment or just your creations?
Neither answer is wrong and I am not directing this at any one person in particular, since I was guilty of this before I reanalyzed how this was affecting everyone in the grand scheme of things.
For a while, I was only 5-starring story arcs that I felt could compete with Dev Content.
I gave 4 to those I felt still needing improving on certain elements and 3 in need of moderate re-work and didn't rate anything below.
If I came across a farm, I just did not vote.
No, I'm not 1 starring you!
You guys have just as much right to A/E as anyone.
I'm willing to bet 100 iThreads that no one who farms and plays a sub-par farm will give it anything but 5 stars.
I feel this is why farms move ahead of stories... because there is no standard other than "it's a farm".
Doesn't matter if it's incomplete or needs re-balanced or whatever.
Now, if everyone was taking my approach... and I'm sure some do. Guess what happens?
Farms move to---> Front Page! Hall of Fame!
Potentially great stories---> Keep at it! You may not get replayed by someone who 3 or 4 starred ya... so you've got lots of ground to make up!
Authors who get repeatedly 3 or 4 starred with no feedback---> Stop trying, stop playing, stop rating (yes, your arcs too authors).
This is what I do now:
- I also always leave a general comment in feedback to arcs I play.
- If I don't rate, I'll simply say "I'm sorry, but your arc needs a lot more work. Please update me if you do improve it later so I can give it another try."
- If I do rate (5!), I don't say anything negative unless I can say something positive to off-set the negative.
- I don't give a major break-down of what I'd change, but if I find an element of the format, story or mechanics that feels like a zit in the middle of the back I will state that it's something that I feel needs reconsidered by them.
YES! I am just a mediocre story-teller. I'm not going to pretend I'm much more than that at this point. If you could dig it out of my head and put it into text for me and offer me more than 1000 characters for Mission Intro Dialog, hey... we may be singing a different tune!But, guess what?
Not gonna happen.
Nowadays... I am always 5 starring mediocre or better story attempts... even those I perceive to be flawed but have potential...
Why?
Because I want yours higher on the list than farms. Simple as that.
I DO NOT see other authors as competition and think "oh no, if I 5 star them... mine will fall a page".
I don't know if that's what other authors are thinking or not or if they just don't see it the way I do now.
There is a major limit to the A/E system in it's current state to keep valid attempts at stories in the front.
Unfortunately, making authors "work" for that 5 star rating from you will probably only result in more farms.
In my opinion, we (not just me or you, but all of us as a combined authoring force) as a majoirty are failing as an author community at helping each other shine.
So, yea... I have received 4-stars in the last week 4 times on "Black as Midnight" as a motivating factor to speaking up now... an arc which I have put at least 80 hours into. And guess what? I agree it's still not "Final" and still needs some minor improvements in various areas.
Now, how long some of those 5-star farms take to create?
Like I said, I'm not a great story-teller... but... I am determined to get that arc to be the best it can be within my and A/E's abilities, even if takes another 20 hours.
Why?
Because I'm passionate about this element of the game. Isn't it obvious?
This is why I finally jumped on board with the A/E Superteam on Triumph.
This is why I'm hosting a Global Character Contest where actual player's characters will make guest appearances in future arcs.
This is why that even in the neglected state of Architect Entertainment, I will be forking out $20 for 5 more slots.
This is why I am pulling elements from arcs I've played and liked and finding a way to mention or sneak them into my story and mention the authors and arc names and IDs in Souvenirs in the future.
And this is why I'll soon be doing some YouTube video demonstrations to give designers ideas in their creations.
To me, it's no longer just about me and my arc(s). It's about us as a community of authors and players.
You took time out to experience my creation, you bet I'm taking the time to try yours out too.
You think mine needs more work? Tell me! I'm not that proud to admit I'm flawed. Just hope you receive kind criticism as well, if there's any to be had. (pssst, chances are on a d20 that you're probably better at this than I)
Anyhoo... I want to get better at designing and authoring story/adventure arcs. I want to experience others great story/adventure arcs too.
And I'll be doing my part in seeing that happen...
This isn't "SupaFreak Entertainment".... but it should be!
PEACE!
Disclaimer: It's totally acceptable to ingore SupaFreak's rants. Let's just 5 star everything!