Question: Just how 'buff' ARE the Phalanx and the Vindicators?

In the comics, we often see the Phalanx slugging it out en masse - they don't usually go off on patrol individually, and even when in mass combat, they seem to one-on-one their opponents with occasional saves from teammates. (The exception is often Statesman, who is usually buried beneath masses of mooks when he's not going toe-to-toe with the main baddie.)

The same thing goes for the Vindicators.

But these guys are supposedly the best of the best heroes in Paragon.

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So I guess my question is this...

If, in great COH tradition, a bank is being robbed by, say, 2-4 villains... plus the chaos of the relevant gang outside AND an additional villain wreaking havoc in the jail... COULD a single member of the Phalanx handle it? Phalanx plus Vindicator sidekick? Phalanx plus Vindicator plus a few squads of Longbow? Or would the whole Phalanx need to show?

How buff is buff?

(Yes, the question is story-related - but I've been trying to figure this out for a while. And I am seriously trying to avoid the 'their strength is based on plot need - if they're meant to lose, they'll lose.' I am TRYING for realism here, such as it is in a superhero game.)

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

Based on the books and comics, sadly I'd have to steal a bit from JMS and say the signature characters have the Strength of Plot. They're facing off against Recluse and his Dragons one issue and having their hands full with Hellions, Banished Pantheon or Circle of Thorns in others.

Answer: it depends. It depends on the member, on the group attacking ithem and the like. The Family or some Hellions? Statesman sneezes, then offers to pay for the broken window.

Something more powerful? New threat? It'd take teaming - and in ways that we don't get to do in game ("Are you getting this?" "Yeah, let me analyze that data..." etc.)

I don't think you can really get *away* from "Strength based on plot need" in a superhero universe, though. I mean, Superman (for the iconic super) went from "Bulletproof, strong, and can jump over buildings" to "I have laser eyes and can fly" to "If I flick a fly away too hard, I can take out land masses, oh, and I can fly in space with no equipment" (and back and forth as needed.)

The easiest one of the Phalanx to figure out would probably be Manticore. His powers, after all, are his physical fitness, his mind and his wallet (which allows him to fund and research, etc.) I'd say a fair bit of the Vindicators would be there, as well. Take normal (well, athletic) human, give neat toys and crank up to 11. Can they be taken out by a bullet? Sure. Are they the most at risk? Sure.

So, working out your scenario:

Bank robber:
Boss-ish figure, 2-3 Lts, let's give them 5 "minions." Just so security's covered and someone's around to take spare shots.

This could probably - looking at anything from Hellions to Tsoo to Sky Raider to (most) Arachnos - be handled by Manticore (as the most "relateable" Phalanx member) with someone tagging along, just to deal quickly with the situation.

Add gang activity outside, depending on the situation in the bank/time constraints, they could probably make a fair dent (by presence as well as power) on the way, letting the police mop it up.

Add a jailbreak, it'll depend (again) on scale and who. Regular/lower power criminals, say 30 of them escaping (without Arachnos help?) Send longbow over. Freakshow-ish? "Player Hero 982309" and longbow. Massive jailbreak and/or higher power? One or more vindicators, scaling up to the Phalanx as needed.

Basically - more info needed for a better answer.

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The problem is that your toon is also as powerful as the plot/mission needs, and if your mission happens to included one of them as a Ally again they match the power level of the mission, i dont think you can escape from that, it is just how the comic book world works.

If what your after is for a story or a plot, it would prehaps be better to use them as Contacts, Task Force style, rather than as active combatants.

I can't offer much help since I never saw the comics (outside Sister Psyche's bath scene and Troy Hickman's story), but I do want to comment on the artefact of "plot relevant power levels." This problem stems from stories either trying to give us reasons why one character won over another by having one have an advantage, or trying to give us no reason why a character we KNOW is stronger than this loses. In both cases, what's missing is... Well, let's call it "the fog of war." The uncertainty of battle. The fact that when characters of roughly comparable power level fight, a lot of the time the outcome of the fight is determined in large part by luck, and in a broader sense by what the characters actually do.

Let's put this within the context of a fighting game. Is Ryu stronger than Chun Li? In storyline, yes. Ruy is a Mary Sue. But in the actual game... Well, it depends on the good fortune of the player. Sitting players of equal skill at the controls of both characters, the result is often down to change - who manages to snag that sweet spot, who manages to connect that super attack, who manages to dodge that really bad situation, that sort of thing.

I say this because actual written stories, be they comic book, regular book or movie script, usually have problems communicating this "fog of war." A lot of the times you can see how the plot is going before a fight even starts, and you can deduce the outcome of it based on where you feel the plot is headed, or at the very least you can deduce a select few possibilities. It's almost a if the plot is already decided and the fight is just going through the motions to get character A to plot point B. Which, by the way, is how it usually is, at least for those authors who tend to plan ahead, but I've rarely seen people do a very good job of hiding this.

As far as I'm concerned, if you're writing a story about the Freedom Phalanx, you can pick your own power level for each of the characters, and then just do your best to ensure that the outcome of their fights feels natural, rather than ordained. Do that and you should be just fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

You've come up with a classic issue here, really....whilst I agree to a point that characters are usually 'as strong as plot', I think sometimes you need to quantify just what the characters in question can do.

My gaming background has a lot of tabletop superhero games in it, and whilst that framework of statistics and benchmarks essentially disallowed 'strength of plot', you also had measurable gradients of ability.

In all honesty, I put the notion of the Phalanx particularly as AV's to one side. The game quantifies their abilities far differently than would make logical sense, as they essentially defy the very setting and rules of the setting in which they live.

I tend to look at the Phalanx as the Justice League from the Justice League and Unlimited animated series, as it's close to those power levels and you can find a number of equivalents.

If you can start with Manticore (who is your Green Arrow/Batman equivalent) and work from there, you'll find you have a lot of benchmarks and gradients to rely upon. Trying to stack them up and account for what are virtually impossible to explain or describe abilities or power levels winds up being self-defeating, because of the 'strength of plot' limitation.

I don't mind referring to the not-quite-adaptation of the game to a roleplaying game (you can still download the Quickstart rules online), as then you're getting a more structured sense of the universe that way.

Of course, this may not be for you, but it's the most immediate suggestion I can throw your way.



S.

Honestly, I'd say they're level 50 heroes (with some special advantages- like their signature powers). The game has restraints that comic writing doesn't, though with some creativity could probably be represented in-game. Some would be very unpopular though.

Take your 'overwhelmed with Hellions outside the bank' scenario. Sure, they all con grey to the heroes, but their rules can, and in comics often do, include property damage, threat to civillians, time restraints, and the need for non-lethal capture. If it were fully represented in an in-game way it would looke something like:

Prevent the Bank Robbery!
10:00 <and counting>
Take out the 2 Villains and their gangs inside
Eliminate the Hellion distraction outside
Avoid property damage (buildings and environment fully destructable)
Avoid harming civillians (they're targetable as enemies as well, and will get caught in AoE's

Plus there'd be restrictions on how much damage you can do to those Hellions to avoid 'killing' them vs. 'arresting'. If you do so many points past 0 to them, they're toast. Civillian and Hellion casualties take away points, as well as any property damage.

Stuff we don't have in-game because it would be really frustrating to the majority of the player base, but could be written in comics because it's, frankly, expected.

So yeah, level 50 heroes that just have really hard mission requirements.

Level 50? I'd say they're level 52-54 AVs.

That said, Statesman can probably handle a lot of that.

He's the big tough hero of Primal Earth.

Team fights are about the big events...whether it be massive amounts of baddies or one big baddie.

Unless the team is just...well...not powerful at all.

Remember the Rule of Cool. If those guys inside or outside the bank is clever and flashy enough, they tend to get luckier. The reader understands that. Having a name gives you an upgrade.

Of course, if General Zod decides to rob a bank, his utter coolness will stomp all over the opposition, to the point he doesn't even bother to kill his heroic opposition.

Never go with the stupid, random accident "because it's realistic." It doesn't matter if a cement block COULD take out Spider-man, it's dumb and the reader feels cheated.

My favorite superhero fiction was Adam-Troy Castro's. Even silly gimmick villains were depicted as godlike to the average person, and their actions swift and inevitable.

I love this stuff. I see Statesman in the "Marvel-Vein" of being a "class-100" strength, on par with Gladiator or Hyperion , where as the Brawler is more at the Thing's 80 ton range. Synapse seems to be faster than Quicksilver, but not as fast as the Flash. Of course, Manticore is Batman and Hawkeye all in one and Sister Psyche is Marvel Girl and the Invisible Woman (mostly Marvel Girl).

When my VG took on the Phalanx, it was an even 8-on-8 fight, and we won. So the Phalanx as a group are no more powerful than an equal number of equivalent-level PCs.

Also, we took down Statesman first, so that either means he's the biggest threat and we wanted him out of the way, or his reputation is undeserved and he's really a big wimp.

Well, they're just like the groups in the comics: some are genuinely "mighty" and some, relatively speaking, are punks. Superman is mighty. So are Iron Man, Wonder Woman, Thor, etc. Batman is a punk. Aquaman is a punk. Some of them are in both categories at once. Flash has amazing powers but if you could catch him off-guard, a normal person could take him out with one punch.

In the Phalanx, Statesman and Positron are mighty. Manticore and Synapse are punks. BAB is a punk. Sister Psyche is like Flash - amazing powers but really easy to take out of the fight.

-Statesman could lift and fly a section of destroyed building several stories high.
-A significantly weakened Statesman could lift Babbage.
-He survived a tactical nuke at ground zero.
-The exact wording escapes me, but the Freedom Phalanx novel implies he could survive on an alien planet where the atmosphere was made up of searing hot gasses.
-He planned to retire to Elephant Island with no gear but his costume.

However:

-One Agony Mage sent him to the hospital.
-A significantly weakened Statesman was killed by a normal arrow to the chest.
-He was mezzed by a CoT AV.
-He was held by Nerva spirits.
-He stalemated against the Honoree.
-Clamor's rad attacks gave him trouble.
-Positron's Atomic Blast took him out.



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