Question: Just how 'buff' ARE the Phalanx and the Vindicators?
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2011-05-15 23:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Kasoh
Statesman's Unyielding probably still roots him, so he never turns it on...
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Originally Posted by El__D
Explains why he almost never leaves IP. He has Unyielding on. >.>
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Either that, or he's still sulking that Castle, not he, is the trainer for Peregrine Island.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
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Best. Edit. Ever. XD|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
EDIT: I just shot a protester wearing a tank top with a magnum. She got up and threw a rock at me.
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That's why we have to "arrest" citizens with katanas and rifles.
My pet peeve is people who refuse to acknowledge it when I tell them my character has unlimited power. If I rp attack them they are of course disintegrated beyond the ability of any hospital or magic to restore. Yet despite this they refuse to delete their characters and still keep playing them as if nothing happened. ~Mandu, 07-16-2010
As an additional wrinkle for you, it looks to me like the real challenge (for a character of any power level) in either of your scenarios is the number of things going on at once. Unless a character is a tremendously fast speedster, a category normally limited to Synapse in CoH fiction, it's going to be difficult to solve all of the problems mentioned in either of your scenarios all at once, even for the very most powerful character.
For further wrinkles, consider that a gang/faction/what-have-you "causing trouble in the streets" means different things depending on the group involved. For instance, even though they appear at the same levels in the game, in a narrative structure, I'd think that if a group decides to destroy a neighborhood, the highly organized, focused Knives of Artemis or Council pose a much greater threat than an equivalent number of the crazily chaotic Carnival of Shadows or Freakshow.
For what it's worth, I consider the Freedom Phalanx and Arachnos inner circle members about equivalent in raw power to a high-level PC, with the Vindicators and second-string Arachnos types being closer to a character in the lower 40's or upper 30's. I'm not sure "raw power" is relevant for your purposes, though. And, of course, in a narrative structure, the raw power of, say, Manticore (a well-trained guy with some arrows) is on a different order from that of, say, Positron (a beyond-real-world genius with powers that affect the fundamental structure of matter).
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The devs have been quoted as calling the Praetors as featured in the Incarnate trials "Cosmically Empowered".
The exact wording from the i20 page:
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OK, now the definition of 'cosmic menace' can vary from person to person. In my opinion, it would mean that you'd have to have power on a cosmic scale or at least exert your power on a cosmic scale. In the case of physical power, you'd at least have to be at the "planet pushing" level. None of the Praetors have demonstrated this yet, certainly not Marauder, Siege or Nightstar.|
Emperor Cole has shared his newly imbued power with his lieutenants, turning them from already powerful Archvillains into cosmic menaces. The Heroes of Paragon City® and the Villains of the Rogue Isles® have faced the likes of Marauder, Mother Mayhem, Nightstar, and Siege in the past, but now each of these Praetorians possesses the power of an army. |
I'd be hesitant to justify calling the Praetors as such on the shaky foundation that they're causing trouble cross dimensions, because the fact is they were doing that before and if that's all that it takes to be 'cosmically powerful', player characters and Red Caps already qualify.
So if we are to assume that the Praetors were around the power level of their Phalanx and Vindicator counterparts originally, them being as powerful as an army now would mean that none of the Phalanx and Vindicators were at that level.
We're not talking mainstream DC comics levels of power in that case. Besides Supes, I would say at least four of the big seven JLers could smoke a typical army in a straight fight.
We're looking more at Avengers level power here, maybe around the levels of the JL/JLU animated series; which has been the general consensus I've always heard. I've always described CoH's universe to the uninitiated as "DC's outlook of heroes on Marvel's scale".
Statesman, being the outlier, I'd put on the same footing as Thor and Hulk. Manticore/Hawkeye and Positron/Iron Man could slug it out all day and stalemate. Sister Psyche vs Jean Grey or Professor X, I'd have to side against Psyche. There may be way more psions per-capita in the CoH universe, but there are fewer at the top levels. She'd just lack the fighting experience in that league.
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Technically speaking, the devs have never to my knowledge stated that the Praetors are cosmically powerful just cosmically empowered. They are empowered by Emperor Cole, who himself is empowered by the Well of the Furies. So they are getting power from a cosmic source. But they are not specifically stated to be cosmically powerful, like as in Galactus powerful or even Silver Surfer powerful.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The devs have been quoted as calling the Praetors as featured in the Incarnate trials "Cosmically Empowered".
The exact wording from the i20 page: OK, now the definition of 'cosmic menace' can vary from person to person. In my opinion, it would mean that you'd have to have power on a cosmic scale or at least exert your power on a cosmic scale. In the case of physical power, you'd at least have to be at the "planet pushing" level. None of the Praetors have demonstrated this yet, certainly not Marauder, Siege or Nightstar. I'd be hesitant to justify calling the Praetors as such on the shaky foundation that they're causing trouble cross dimensions, because the fact is they were doing that before and if that's all that it takes to be 'cosmically powerful', player characters and Red Caps already qualify. |
Plus, its always difficult to translate MMO power levels to real world or even fictional comic book analogs because of the oddities of mechanics. For example, surviving a nuclear blast sounds like a big deal when we say Statesman survived one, but then again the players actually *get* something called a nuclear blast that half the game can survive. Setting that aside as being somewhat hyperbole, Marauder in Lambda has 100% resistance to everything except psionics when enraged. This means within the limits of the game mechanics to represent, unless nuclear warheads are unresistable Marauder can not only survive a tactical nuclear warhead, he can survive a fifty megaton bomb. He can survive Mars falling from the sky and vaporizing North America, because nothing except psionics can scratch him.
And yet, he could not survive a Steel Canyon building exploding, because that detonation *is* unresistable and *guaranteed* to deal more damage than you have health, no matter how much health you have. If Galactus landed in Steel Canyon and accidentally stood on one of those buildings when it blew up, even if Galactus had 100% resistance to damage and a billion points of health he'd be kaboomed.
There's also the small matter of the fact that in-game, all of the signature heroes and villains are plain retarded on their own. If you put players into the driver's seat of the Freedom Phalanx and they played that group like a real team, that team collectively could probably wipe out any conventional army you could assemble in the City of Heroes world. And that's because another rule of the City of Heroes world that is somewhat different from either the comics genre world and the real world is that force multiplication doesn't fool around. An army of conventional abilities with no super powered stacking buffs or debuffs will lose to any strong team of anything with those. That sort of thing doesn't really happen in the real world, and doesn't really happen in quite the same way in the comic book genre usually. Singularly, most of the most powerful heroes and villains in the Marvel and DC Universes can probably take on anything in the City of Heroes universe one on one. But a team of eight, twelve, or twenty four of the strongest things in the City of Heroes universe playing by CoH rules could probably lay waste to the DC and Marvel Universes faster than the Marvel Zombies, no matter what the numerical odds were, short of facing the entities in both universes capable of rewriting all of reality.
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Now you've made a case for Vanguard and Freedom Corps scrapping all of their current offensives planned to focus on teleporting burning buildings to Keyes Island and the Hive.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And yet, he could not survive a Steel Canyon building exploding, because that detonation *is* unresistable and *guaranteed* to deal more damage than you have health, no matter how much health you have. If Galactus landed in Steel Canyon and accidentally stood on one of those buildings when it blew up, even if Galactus had 100% resistance to damage and a billion points of health he'd be kaboomed.
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Also, I want to slot that in my Omega. Do you think it would still work if said building was a cottage?
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Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
*laughs*
Either that, or he's still sulking that Castle, not he, is the trainer for Peregrine Island. Michelle aka Samuraiko/Dark_Respite |
Statesman doesn't train. He inspires.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
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That belongs in a signature.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
EDIT: I just shot a protester wearing a tank top with a magnum. She got up and threw a rock at me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If Galactus landed in Steel Canyon and accidentally stood on one of those buildings when it blew up, even if Galactus had 100% resistance to damage and a billion points of health he'd be kaboomed.
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Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
I think people are applying too much of the game mechanics to the concept of the characters abilities and the books seem to be as contradictory as DC at it's worst. I think in interpreting the individual abilities, one need look to a more general perception than specific comic or game references.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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In that case, I'd still say Statesman would look at that situation and get through it pretty easily on his own.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
I think people are applying too much of the game mechanics to the concept of the characters abilities and the books seem to be as contradictory as DC at it's worst. I think in interpreting the individual abilities, one need look to a more general perception than specific comic or game references.
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The enemies would win, likely by just out numbering States. Take him down? No. Keep him possibly distracted/busy enough to have the main goal achieved while a few of the main baddies got taken down? More likely.
Critical Mass from what I know, just isn't in Statesman's league.
Alot of this can go with any of the Freedom Phalanx, story wise.
Maybe the speedster, Synapse could take them down fast enough, but he may not have the actual power to take down some of the stronger enemies.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Can you really blame them?|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
I think people are applying too much of the game mechanics to the concept of the characters abilities and the books seem to be as contradictory as DC at it's worst. I think in interpreting the individual abilities, one need look to a more general perception than specific comic or game references.
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The game's mechanics tend to intrude rather than facilitate.
I happen to think a lot of the game's mechanics just aren't suited to to concept of super heroes period. The Phalanx in the novels and comics aren't what they are in game. When the game's flagship characters can't even be done justice by the game itself, that should be a red flag.
One can argue all day if that's a problem or not. I'm obviously of the opinion that mechanics should bend to the genre and not vice-versa. Don't make a soccer/football MMO and decide that it would be 'unbalanced' if the goalie and only the goalie can touch the ball with his hands so he lacks that ability.
Rather than being some kind of helpful construct assisting players in creating viable characters, the system has always been a straightjacket to me, one that constantly screams "%&@# your concept!".
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It does! I've been waiting for Dual Pistols/Defense for so long!
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Can you really blame them?
The game's mechanics tend to intrude rather than facilitate. I happen to think a lot of the game's mechanics just aren't suited to to concept of super heroes period. The Phalanx in the novels and comics aren't what they are in game. When the game's flagship characters can't even be done justice by the game itself, that should be a red flag. One can argue all day if that's a problem or not. I'm obviously of the opinion that mechanics should bend to the genre and not vice-versa. Don't make a soccer/football MMO and decide that it would be 'unbalanced' if the goalie and only the goalie can touch the ball with his hands so he lacks that ability. Rather than being some kind of helpful construct assisting players in creating viable characters, the system has always been a straightjacket to me, one that constantly screams "%&@# your concept!". . |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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If you own a gun or guns you must be fragile and you can't possibly know martial arts or have any kind of melee weapon skills to speak of.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
It does! I've been waiting for Dual Pistols/Defense for so long!
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Cause no one like that exists in comics or movies at all./sarcasm
Heaven help you if you're a hero who wants a suit of armor that has ranged attacks that isn't patterned after a spider.
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ANYWAY...
So now I've got a lot to mentally gnaw on while writing these chapters... but however they turn out, thanks very much for the input!
(You guys are welcome to keep contributing, debating, etc...)
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
In the Phalanx, Statesman and Positron are mighty. Manticore and Synapse are punks. BAB is a punk. Sister Psyche is like Flash - amazing powers but really easy to take out of the fight.