Whats better and why?!


Acemace

 

Posted

I am wondering what is better in an overall toon for PvE
Badge hunting
little bit of farming
Great for TFs, SFs, the new issue 20 stuff
JUST idk everything ii guess


I want to start up a ss//will tank or brute
but idk what the big differance are between them other then brutes get fury bars and tanks dont

But does that mean brutes have better attack WITHOUT!!!! fury bar and does tanks have better res to things then brutes What would be better for dmg just standing alone? no fury no insp no other just standing there.? What would be better for res and def just standing there.? What is more likely to be the better one in the long run... I need a toon that ii can stick with and work his way up to lvl 50 and collet all the badges and do all the tfs and just allllll of that

Now with all thoses questions ive asked haha Would love all the feed back Thanks
and feel free to put in ur builds on why you think this or that


 

Posted

First off tanks are tougher when it comes to damage dealt to them, but brutes do more damage. Second off it is up to individuals and there play style. I have a brute that's ss/wp and a tank that's wp/ss. Tanks do not get a fury bar, while brutes do and that is there inheritance power. Tanks get Gauntlet which increase your taunt on the tank to get the aggro off of squishy. You can not have a brute without fury. Ether way you go just do not forget Rage in your build. It will increase the damage you deal.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSK View Post
Ether way you go just do not forget Rage in your build. It will increase the damage you deal.
Tanks get more from Rage than brutes do.

80% bonus on top of 0% is huge.

80% bonus on top of 160% isn't as great.

It's still a great power for both ATs, but tanks benefit from it more.

Also, as Willpower, you will have to actively try a little harder to hold agro than some builds. The taunt aura in WP (RttC) is pretty weak compared to some others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Tanks get more from Rage than brutes do.

80% bonus on top of 0% is huge.

80% bonus on top of 160% isn't as great.

It's still a great power for both ATs, but tanks benefit from it more.

Also, as Willpower, you will have to actively try a little harder to hold agro than some builds. The taunt aura in WP (RttC) is pretty weak compared to some others.
That is true before exterior damage buffs are considered.

On Tankers, 175% from Rage and enhancements means that you begin to stop benefiting from Rage if you get over 125% from damage buffs.

On Brutes, 335% from Rage, enhancements, and Fury means that you begin to stop benefiting from Rage if you get over 340% from damage buffs.


Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster

 

Posted

Start with the role you want the character to have, thinking of a scale between pure meatshield and damage dealer. The closer your thoughts are to meatshield, the more you should be thinking Tanker. The closer your thoughts are to damage dealing, the more you should be thinking Brute.

Speaking to Tankers, there is a difference between tanking and survivability. WP is an incredible survivability set, but the least of the tanking sets, because it is the least capable set at generating and holding aggro. With a lot of AOEs, that isn't such a big deal, but if you're loaded with single-target attacks (like SS is), it can be a chore to keep cycling in Taunt and changing targets for punchvoke.

On the other hand, if you don't want to be a large-spawn tanker and just want something that will survive while letting you throw out damage, there are few better choices than WP. If you only have to hold aggro on one target, then you don't need a big aggro aura, so it is almost ideal for AV/GM-tanking. With the right slotting, you can cap defenses to S/L/E/N/F/C and wind up with incredible +HP and +Regen.

For your goals, I'd recommend Shield over WP, unless you really just don't care about the Tanking aspect. Shield can be extremely survivable, offers bonus damage, has arguably the best aggro grip available, and tosses in a great AOE. It'll also be cheaper to slot up than WP. It won't be quite as survivable, but will still be very survivable.

For Tanker Secondaries, I like Fire or Elec paired with either Shield or WP: Fire for its damage and extra AOE, Elec for it's AOEs and chain. Both would help WP generate aggro and both will whittle down spawns faster than their single-target-focused peers. SS is nice if you pick up another AOE or two from your EPP/PPP and if you don't ever exemp below level 35 (at which point you would lose Footstomp and become a single-target attacker). It's also a terrible grind to level up an SS Tanker (40th level before Footstomp can be fully slotted), which only matters if you're actually doing the work to level yourself up. Shield can help this a bit by adding another AOE at 26.

If you're feeling Brute-ish, then it's a bit of a different story. Defense and Resistance are weaker, HP are lower, but survivability is often enough to handle whatever you'll face. In the meantime, you'll consistently outperform Tankers for damage and may outperform Scrappers (depending on the Primaries). Just sitting in a normal spawn will have you up to about 65% Fury (+130% damage) in a couple seconds, so don't discount the impact of Fury. Throw a few attacks and you're at 80%+ easily.

Because the Brute primary is a damage set, they get attacks faster, making SS a much nicer choice. It's still a bit of a grind, but you can have Footstomp fully slotted by 34. Double-stacked Rage is pretty nice, too, for as long as you can maintain it. If you're looking for options, I'd recommend Claws, DB and Elec (in that order). Claws is a fast set with one PBAOE and two cones, one of which has a 30' base range, plus a damaging self-buff that doesn't crash and can be stacked.

For Brute secondaries, WP is a great choice. You get more HP, nice regen, best-in-AT endurance, and a good set of resistances and defenses to build on with power choices and slotting. Aggro-schmaggro - you'll take the alpha and that's often enough to keep the worst off the squishies for as long as a spawn manages to survive. For better aggro grip, much easier slotting, but admittedly weaker survivability at the highest levels of slotting, consider Super Reflexes. Invuln is another good choice, but the slotting requirements to really make it shine on a Brute can be a little rough. If you like Elec or SS, then Shield is another good option, but great survivability won't be cheap and endurance can be an issue.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auroxis View Post
That is true before exterior damage buffs are considered.

On Tankers, 175% from Rage and enhancements means that you begin to stop benefiting from Rage if you get over 125% from damage buffs.

On Brutes, 335% from Rage, enhancements, and Fury means that you begin to stop benefiting from Rage if you get over 340% from damage buffs.
I was comparing them in a vacuum, as though you were solo, with no outside buffs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin- View Post
I am wondering what is better in an overall toon for PvE
Badge hunting
little bit of farming
Great for TFs, SFs, the new issue 20 stuff
JUST idk everything ii guess


I want to start up a ss//will tank or brute
but idk what the big differance are between them other then brutes get fury bars and tanks dont

SS/WP is a great combination that can get you trough all the content handily, on the other hand Will Power is a bland armor, I'd suggest Shield Defense, it also can easily get you through everything you'll face and it comes with a damage bonus power along with basically a second Foot Stomp.

With Tanks you get access to a 20% resistible damage resistance debuff with your first attack, and while Brutes do more damage they're not as capable of withstanding damage as a Tanker, which usually means your Tank will be the last one standing if you're on a pug that gets out of control.

Bottom line, pick what you want, start smashing stuff and have fun.
Also be sure to attend Tanker Tuesday's on various servers, the next one is May 3rd on champion (the 79th edition).


-edit typo

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Tanks get more from Rage than brutes do.

80% bonus on top of 0% is huge.

80% bonus on top of 160% isn't as great.

It's still a great power for both ATs, but tanks benefit from it more.

Also, as Willpower, you will have to actively try a little harder to hold agro than some builds. The taunt aura in WP (RttC) is pretty weak compared to some others.
That's like saying it's better being homeless and finding $5 on the ground than being a millionaire and finding $5 on the ground.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
That's like saying it's better being homeless and finding $5 on the ground than being a millionaire and finding $5 on the ground.



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Get rich enough, and it actually costs you more money to pick it up than if you had passed it by.


Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
That's like saying it's better being homeless and finding $5 on the ground than being a millionaire and finding $5 on the ground.
Yes, Johnny, I know you think tanks should be both the toughest AND most damaging AT in the game. That doesn't change the fact that tanks benefit more from Rage than brutes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Another thing to consider is that because of the Incarnate system and the addition of Bruising, there are more opportunities now for Tankers to have better damage than there used to be.

Most of the other melee ATs will opt to shore up their defenses and increase their survivability with the Incarnate system. Due to the fact Tankers get better survivability out of the box, the Incarnate abilities that can increase damage output become more attractive to them.

A well-built Tanker can get away with slotting Alpha Musculature Core Paragon. That can be an increase to damage of 11% right there.

I'd think most ATs would opt for Diamagnetic Interface. Tankers have the freedom to go for Reactive Radial. Because Bruising increases the potency of the DoT effects, Tankers get more damage added from Reactive than comparable Brutes or Scrappers.

Being an aggro grabbing Tanker, you can more easily keep Lore pets alive and throwing damage. They inherit your Reactive Radial and Musculature.

With Destiny, Ageless becomes an attractive way to increase damage output via +Recharge when you can forgo Barrier.

Assault's +Damage from Leadership also becomes viable when you don't need Maneuvers and have the endurance and Recovery from Ageless.

In the case of SS, thanks to Ageless you can stack Rage longer. Mid's tells me that a Tanker's KO Blow with stacked Rage and Bruising alone matches a Brute's KO Blow with stacked Rage and 50% Fury.

Again, because of Bruising, any IO damage procs slotted in your powers like Chance for Psi Damage in Perfect Zinger and Hecatomb's proc do 20% more damage for Tankers when they go off.



Each of those little things don't seem like much on their own individually, but I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.



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Posted

Yes, Bruising helps a lot for Tanker ST damage, and now with Reactive's DoT Tankers can deliver awesome amounts of ST DPS. The only downside is that Bruise doesn't stack at all with itself(even from multiple casters). And of course that it's just for single targets.


Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Yes, Johnny, I know you think tanks should be both the toughest AND most damaging AT in the game. That doesn't change the fact that tanks benefit more from Rage than brutes.
While Johnny's well known demands for Tankers are a bit misguided, I'm going to have to side with him on this one. If it's damage you're looking to do, you're still that 160% further with a Brute on Rage. It's not like any Brutes using Rage are saying to themselves, "Aw shucks, I wish I didn't have all this extra damage so Rage would look even better!" No, they're saying, "Sheeeeeeeet yeah, 240%, YO!"

That isn't to say what you said was false, it's just meaningless. Like when Geico says I can save up to 15% or more. You should be in advertising, if you're not already.


@Rylas

Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Another thing to consider is that because of the Incarnate system and the addition of Bruising, there are more opportunities now for Tankers to have better damage than there used to be.

Indeed so. Tanks tend to have lots of low-damage AOE's with mitigation added in. The added damage proc helps those attacks a LOT, and if you have a damage aura, it helps a WHOLE lot. A hard-core recharge/damage specced tanker may surprise a lot of people on how much damage output it can manage.


Quote:
Each of those little things don't seem like much on their own individually, but I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.
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Happy faces are good

I know I've been EXTREMELY happy with my new fire/fire, and it's not even specced for max recharge/damage.

Muahahahaha!


 

Posted

No, no, you're all wrong! Carp Armor/Carp Melee Tanks are the best!


Be Well!
Fireheart


 

Posted

I will throw in a vote of Shield/Electric tank.

It is very easy to soft cap to all three positions with minimum investment (with no allies in range), gets a nice damage boost with Build Up and Against All Odds (AAO), AAO is also a great taunt arua and it can deal some impressive AoE damage with Shield Charge/Lightning Rod/Chain Induction/Thunder Strike.

Also with the Mu PPP it can a ranged ST attack which hits quite hard and another AoE attack.

So it should be good for badge hunting, a bit of farming (not the fastest but I can certainly run a x8 mission fairly quickly), is good for tanking on teams (although not taken him on many trials yet) and is generally an all round good fun toon to play.

The only problem I've come accross is running x8 Devouring Earth missions, mainly because their eminators can boost their To Hit which means my soft cap doesn't protect me anymore.


Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
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16. Has Paragon Studios redefined "player" to require your mouse to subscribe separately from your keyboard?
If your mouse has greater processing power than your gfx card, the answer is yes.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin- View Post
I am wondering what is better in an overall toon for PvE
First Tiger Hobbes says any AT that lets you have claws, because there is no cooler powerset.


Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Yesterday I saw someone boasting about perma-stacked Rage with Ageless Destiny and Spiritual. As in, two stacks always running. Is that even possible?



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
Yesterday I saw someone boasting about perma-stacked Rage with Ageless Destiny and Spiritual. As in, two stacks always running. Is that even possible?
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Sure. You don't even need Spiritual or Destiny. You just need to get Rage's cycle time (that's recharge + activation) down to 65 seconds.

Personally I don't think it's worth the penalty -- double the crash frequency -- but different strokes for different folks. For 55 out of every 65 seconds, you sure do nice damage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
Sure. You don't even need Spiritual or Destiny. You just need to get Rage's cycle time (that's recharge + activation) down to 65 seconds.

Personally I don't think it's worth the penalty -- double the crash frequency -- but different strokes for different folks. For 55 out of every 65 seconds, you sure do nice damage.
True, but Ageless would take care of the endurance needs, and a Reactive DoT would mean you were still dealing damage over the crashes, if not using Judgement or vet powers. Seems like it could be a hassle clicking all the time, but insane results none the less.


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Posted

I have Rage on a 65 second recharge on my Brute without Ageless, and it's not as perma as I'd like it. Cast time and the fact that it's not on auto means that it's a few seconds off perma in regular play, and I can't cast it during the crash to maximize effectiveness. When I feel like getting perma though, I pick up the 1 hour +20% recharge empowerment buff.

I also have the FF +recharge proc in Foot Stomp to get me over the 65 second timer, but I won't be using that in a ST attack chain where DPS matters most.


Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
True, but Ageless would take care of the endurance needs, and a Reactive DoT would mean you were still dealing damage over the crashes, if not using Judgement or vet powers. Seems like it could be a hassle clicking all the time, but insane results none the less.
Yes, Ageless and Reactive make double-Rage more attractive. I hadn't quite thought of it that way. Still, that'd be a very offensive-slanted build, which isn't necessarily a bad thing; it's just not a step I'm prepared to take on a Tanker. Not when Rebirth adds so much extra survivability.

FWIW, my INV/SS Tanker used to roll with very nearly perma-double Rage, and I couldn't stand it. It seemed like every time I blinked my damage was -9999%. I found after a time that I was purposely waiting til the last possible second to refresh one copy of the buff (and avoid the DEF debuff from the crash), and so eventually I respecced into a more survivability-focused build.

Like so many build considerations, this question is subjective. Hell, there are a handful of people over on the Brute forum who insist that they can't stand one Rage crash. But then, as so aptly noted in this thread, Brutes have more damage bonuses and so Rage doesn't provide as much proportional benefit as it does for Tankers. That goes double for double-stacked Rage, because the extra crash frequency offsets the over-time benefit of the extra damage buff. Anyway, for me, one crash every two minutes is just about right from a purely subjective point of view.

YMMV.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
Yes, Ageless and Reactive make double-Rage more attractive. I hadn't quite thought of it that way. Still, that'd be a very offensive-slanted build, which isn't necessarily a bad thing; it's just not a step I'm prepared to take on a Tanker. Not when Rebirth adds so much extra survivability.
Ah, but the beauty of the Incarnate system: it's not a step you have to commit to. Rebirth and Ageless are not mutually exclusive for a character. You can have access to either at any time. Outside of trials, I rarely even use Dull Pain, let alone need Rebirth. I don't currently have Ageless, but I'll be working towards it for solo play.

Quote:
FWIW, my INV/SS Tanker used to roll with very nearly perma-double Rage, and I couldn't stand it. It seemed like every time I blinked my damage was -9999%. I found after a time that I was purposely waiting til the last possible second to refresh one copy of the buff (and avoid the DEF debuff from the crash), and so eventually I respecced into a more survivability-focused build.

Like so many build considerations, this question is subjective. Hell, there are a handful of people over on the Brute forum who insist that they can't stand one Rage crash. But then, as so aptly noted in this thread, Brutes have more damage bonuses and so Rage doesn't provide as much proportional benefit as it does for Tankers. That goes double for double-stacked Rage, because the extra crash frequency offsets the over-time benefit of the extra damage buff. Anyway, for me, one crash every two minutes is just about right from a purely subjective point of view.
I've got a love-hate relationship with Rage. If you look at the power as it's supposed to be used without stacking, the crash is kind of ridiculous. Other sets out-perform SS for damage, yet they don't have to suffer crashes. On a team, a few Kins negate Rage totally.

But, with +recharge you get into stacking, and between crashes the damage is pretty good. At the same time, Rage is likely helping to keep SS from being proliferated to Scrappers for the time being, so it's not all bad.

Ultimately, for me, Rage is a broken(in a bad way bad) mechanic with an equally broken(in a good way) exploit that partially redeems it, but probably shouldn't.


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