Quote:
Really? |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Solo glory is not my intent.
|
Being upset that you aren't just as survivable on the trials as you are in the rest of the game sure makes it seem that way.
If you are working with your league, you shouldn't be having any major issues staying alive on a melee character.
My Claws/Regen, who is sitting at 32% defense to S/L gets plenty of defense just by being in range of his teammates, and almost never dies on trials anymore. I very seldom even need to hit one of my heals. I monitor my defense so I know when I'm being debuffed, and it is pretty consistently over 70%. A character that is already softcapped should be consistently over 85% or so. I also ran my nearly softcapped BS/DA on them, and can't recall having to hit Dark Regeneration more than a few times across ALL my runs.
Either you've been doing the trials with crappy teams, or you're trying to do things on your own in the trials, that's the only explanation I can think of why you'd be encountering survivability problems.
In MY experience, I'm just not seeing the huge survivability gap some people here are noting. If anything, my scrappers and brutes are MORE survivable on the trials due to the buffs I'm getting from everyone else.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
What difference does your ability to solo make in a situation where you are NOT SOLOING? |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Exactly. Not to mention the fact brutes and scrappers are SUPPOSED to be strong solo at's to make up for the fact they don't bring as much to teams as support toons. If they are 'evening the playing field' by weakening brutes and scrappers ability to perform well on their own, what are they doing to improve their contribution to teams to make up for what they are losing?
|
When you are solo, you are just as tough as you ever were, because the base to-hit in the rest of the game has not changed (other than Praetorian DE mobs). The trials are the only place your survivability drops off, and you are with at LEAST a full team the whole time.
If you guys aren't seeking solo glory, then why are you so concerned about your melee ATs' ability to perform well on their own in circumstances where it is a given that you will not BE on your own?
You are still serving the same purpose you ever do on a team: You are giving the enemies something to shoot at in order to keep the heat off the squishier ATs. That's exactly why all brutes and tanks, and some scrappers have taunt auras.
The teamwork here is, other people are keeping you alive with their buffs so you can better keep them alive.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Remember when the thing known as Defense softcap wasn't really known about, after the introduction of IOs?|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
At the high end, fully slotted and io'd, there wasn't enough of a trade off, again imo. But I do agree the devs apparent crusade to make defense worthless is headed in the 'going too far' direction.
It's ok for top end builds that cost billions to make to be almost unkillable. Even in the regular content, my uber toons can die in various situations. But with the current trend, my uber 50s can die like a level 10 blaster far too often and far too easily. Maybe the devs have a different playstyle, but I don't enjoy going to the hospital every five minutes on a top end character. If some players like to die a lot, fine, up the difficulty capabilities to +8/x16 and let them go nuts. One of the bigger reasons this is happening is giving enemies things that literally make defense useless, which overly cripples builds and powersets that rely on defense. And they tinkered with this in the regular lvl 50 content when they added tip missions, and they upped the to hit ability of enemies like DE. |
If you're dying every 5mins, I'm not to sure it's the enemies that are doing this and maybe playstyle or your build not being as great as you think, or do you just not have the higher level incarnate abilities unlocked?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I am not afraid to dive into any +4 (no level shifts) group with my softcapped to all types possible including psi WP tanker. Only the ACU can actually hit, and they're lieutenants on Lambda (where during the sabotage phase you can find yourself alone/first to the weapon cache despite your best intentions). Soloing those +4 crates with an /em tanker takes quite a while, for the record.
If you're at softcap and find yourself alone pop a luck rather than change your build. You shouldn't find yourself alone on a trial often enough to even burn through a row of them. Especially since in the worst case scenario you can just buy more in the hospital.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
Funny thing people keep saying SR took the hard end in trials. I am playing SR I was running on a budget build too with %46 %47 def softcapped and in lambda I soloed 3 or 4 crates myself many times since people usually don't know where crates are or just getting lost in the maze. All I really need is an orange and a purple for each crate and it was before I got my tier 3 judgement (which I am using ion at the moment but i have pyronic for obvious patch for ion) and tier 3 destiny (i went with barrier for res). Only things that provide problems for me in trials are victoria's and sometimes boss seers except 9CU's which is obvious case of problem for anyone if they stay long enough.
I died repeatedly in trials at first with my soft-capped Katana/Dark. I was only level 51, and I was using the queue system, so I'd get on small teams where many members hadn't run the trials before. Most of them failed. But now that I'm level 53, getting on full leagues before entering, and everyone's done it before, they go pretty smoothly, and most of them succeed. I still occasionally die, but I'm not going to adjust my build. I like my build as is, even for the trials. I have nice, layered survivability, and I'm not going to sacrifice it for those rare occasions where the defense isn't high enough.
Now, I'm not generally much for teaming, and I loves me some solo glory. That's just not what the incarnate trials are, even if I secretly love it when I end up separated from the team (you can't take the Scrapperlock out of the Scrapper). I'll get used to being a small cog in a big wheel that mows down the trials. I still wish there was some solo content to apply all this newfound power to, but I guess I'll make do. And heck, I bet +4x8 Cimerorans or Arachnos can still kill me, and if not, I'm sure Vanguard could get the job done. And if I had a bit higher DPS, I could start competing in the "How many giant monsters can you solo at once, no temps, no insps?" Olympics. What? You KNOW that's next. AVs are SO last issue.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
I would to politely ask you to reread my posts, my issue with the SD Brute is its not as survivable as the WP brute and the offense I am used to in the trade off is not as effective.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Really?
Being upset that you aren't just as survivable on the trials as you are in the rest of the game sure makes it seem that way. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
My Claws/Regen, who is...
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Either you've been doing the trials with crappy teams, or you're trying to do things on your own in the trials, that's the only explanation I can think of why you'd be encountering survivability problems.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
If you're at softcap and find yourself alone pop a luck rather than change your build. You shouldn't find yourself alone on a trial often enough to even burn through a row of them. Especially since in the worst case scenario you can just buy more in the hospital.
|
Aside from adding more than a single Luck's worth of defense, and -21% damage to your enemies, it grants this mitigation team-wide in a massive 25ft radius and allows you to add a (very tiny) force multiplier element to your melee build.
The only reason I didn't have it on this build previously was 1) I was already survivable enough for general content/TFs and 2) It would be difficult to run on this type of build considering the other endurance concerns.
I'm ok with the occasional death when I make a mistake or simply get very unlucky. For example 1 in every 10~15 trials or so.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Werner
I like my build as is, even for the trials. I have nice, layered survivability, and I'm not going to sacrifice it for those rare occasions where the defense isn't high enough.
|
If I could build more of other layers, I most certainly would.
This is why Darkest Night is my prime option. It adds a later of mitigation that includes both reducing the damage of the attacks as well as making you harder to hit.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Werner
Now, I'm not generally much for teaming, and I loves me some solo glory. That's just not what the incarnate trials are, even if I secretly love it when I end up separated from the team (you can't take the Scrapperlock out of the Scrapper).
|
I'm kind of surprised at some of the responses in this thread. I thought this was the forum for discussing top end survivability and endless build improvements?
Quote:
Well, I was personally just talking about my character and my experience. Specifically, I'm very happy with where my build has ended up in I20. You're not. My satisfaction with my build shoudn't imply somehow that you should be satisfied with your build when you're aware of a performance gap between it and similar characters like your Willpower Brute.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I'm kind of surprised at some of the responses in this thread. I thought this was the forum for discussing top end survivability and endless build improvements?
|
Reskimming the thread now. OK, summarizing how I read it, it seems like most of us don't feel like reaching the new soft cap is a good use of our resources. However, many of us are not running a taunt aura, and probably most of us are not tanking for teams with our Scrappers (or at least not often). As you said:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
That might work for Blaster or a Scrapper with no taunt aura, but my Brutes are designed to take the lead on teams.
|
Still, even though I would personally get to the new soft cap one way or another if I were team tank, I'm not convinced it's actually a good idea. I expect that within a few weeks, everyone will simply always run the same pattern through the temp power portion of Lambda. Teams will stop getting separated. You will almost always have your support. Times when you don't will become quite rare, and for those few times, the occasional emergency purple might well suffice. The other legs of your survivability (resistance, healing) will then perhaps be at least as significant as defense.
Still, there WILL be new content. If your Brute is at the new soft cap, you're probably ready for it. If not, well, maybe you'll be fine, but maybe you won't.
So, if I were you, I'd go for it. I'm not convinced it's a good idea, but I'm pretty convinced it's what I'd do if I could pull it off.
As far as the two options you've proposed, Barrier is great for burst survivability, so it's tempting to go with that and leverage Diamagnetic to make up the additional -tohit with your AoEs. But Darkest Night also debuffs their damage, and seems more reliable to me somehow. Also, I see a lot of barriers. Adding some damage debuff may bring more to the team on top of being more reliable for you personally. I suspect I'd go with Darkest Night, but again, I have no experience with it. And again, what I would TRY to do is pull off both Barrier AND Darkest Night. I just don't know if that's possible in your build and meeting other goals.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
I'm sorry that wasn't directed specifically at you.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Well, I was personally just talking about my character and my experience. Specifically, I'm very happy with where my build has ended up in I20. You're not. My satisfaction with my build shoudn't imply somehow that you should be satisfied with your build when you're aware of a performance gap between it and similar characters like your Willpower Brute.
|
I just remember Santorican posting his attempt to build for 59% to all positions for his DM/SD (under the guise of soloing Apex, but he revealed why afterwards
) and getting advice.I post pretty much the same thing and get accused of a variety of negative things.
Regardless, I appreciate the help and input so far.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Werner
Reskimming the thread now. OK, summarizing how I read it, it seems like most of us don't feel like reaching the new soft cap is a good use of our resources.
|
Unfortunately that would leave me around 57% to all (give or take a few bits) and I would still need to make some changes to add the final 2% (mostly at the sacrifice of Recharge).
It also means dropping Cardiac on top of adding another END hungry toggle (MAaneuvers).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Werner
If I were a Tanker or Brute taking the lead on teams, I'd want to know that I could survive almost no matter how bad my team was. I would want to be at the new soft cap IF I could do that without gimping the rest of my build. Darkest Night sounds great in that regard.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Werner
However, I'd want to avoid swapping to Ageless instead of Rebirth or Barrier (I loves me some Barrier). Another possibility is switching to Cardiac from whatever you're in, but that's probably just as drastic as going to Ageless
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Werner
However, it sounds like you're already in trouble as far as endurance goes, so you may be forced into Ageless or Cardiac.
|
The issue is dealing with:
- Rage Crashes (I do not double stack)
- Active Defense on a 60s cycle (7 end per cast, no worse than an attack but you can slow down on attacking - AD is on auto-fire)
- Hasten Crashes (7s shy of perma)
- OWTS Crashes (which would normally be fine due to the inherent recovery boost, but can get scary when you are juggling other crash type powers and are against endurance draining enemies like the IDF)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Werner
So about all I can say is that I'd TRY to manage my endurance with lesser sacrifices, but that ultimately, Darkest Night looks like it would be worth a bigger sacrifice if necessary. (I have never used it, and don't know how it plays in practice, but it sure LOOKS nice. And even if AVs resist most of it (?), that's the part where you'll likely have the most support.)
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Werner
Still, even though I would personally get to the new soft cap one way or another if I were team tank, I'm not convinced it's actually a good idea. I expect that within a few weeks, everyone will simply always run the same pattern through the temp power portion of Lambda. Teams will stop getting separated. You will almost always have your support. Times when you don't will become quite rare, and for those few times, the occasional emergency purple might well suffice. The other legs of your survivability (resistance, healing) will then perhaps be at least as significant as defense.
|
I've had both truly amazing teams where we just plowed through the IDF like they were no worse than Cimerorans and I've experienced what I would consider catastrophic failures in terms of organization, team composition and PUG player lack of ability/build.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Werner
As far as the two options you've proposed, Barrier is great for burst survivability, so it's tempting to go with that and leverage Diamagnetic to make up the additional -tohit with your AoEs. But Darkest Night also debuffs their damage, and seems more reliable to me somehow. Also, I see a lot of barriers. Adding some damage debuff may bring more to the team on top of being more reliable for you personally. I suspect I'd go with Darkest Night, but again, I have no experience with it. And again, what I would TRY to do is pull off both Barrier AND Darkest Night. I just don't know if that's possible in your build and meeting other goals.
|
I'm currently working on getting L53 for my DM/SD Brute who already has Darkest Night - I'll take a few test runs with him to see how well it works before I make a final decision.
When you have a chance, please check your inbox.
Quote:
I ended up as de facto tank versus Nightstar earlier today with a MA/SR scrapper (no tanks or brutes in the vicinity). It was not a pleasant experience. Still, I'm overall happy with normal softcap, so I'd agree with the majority on this.
|
Originally Posted by Werner
probably most of us are not tanking for teams with our Scrappers (or at least not often).
|
VIRTUE: Ms Pris - 50 scrapper, Brai Master - 50 tank, Candi Pain - 50 scrapper
VICTORY: Little Bertha - 50 blaster
OK, after more thinking, I'm pretty iffy on Darkest Night because it requires an anchor. In most fights, anchors die very quickly. You're not going to want to waste 3.5 seconds casting Darkest Night only to have it go away after another handful of seconds. And you should probably lead off with Foot Stomp and maybe Taunt anyway to help with aggro control, so now, by the time you use Darkest Night, your anchor is almost dead.
So from that standpoint, it seems only useful on something that lives long enough to serve as an adequate anchor. So an AV. But an AV is going to resist it. I suppose it's useful cast on one of the AVs to help with the adds on the BAF, but those hardly seem to be a survival problem unless they're ignored.
So I guess now I'm thinking Barrier plus AoEs to leverage Diagmagnetic. The AoEs are serving double use pulling aggro, so that's good too.
Again, I've never used Darkest Night, so I'm still just guessing about how it works in practice.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
The 3.5 seconds is a killer. By the time you cast and then hop into the mob to footstomp your taking a ton more return fire than just jump in Footstomp and then Dark Oblit. That work fine on my SS/FA for soloing Crates on Lambda runs. |
Originally Posted by Werner
OK, after more thinking, I'm pretty iffy on Darkest Night because it requires an anchor. In most fights, anchors die very quickly. You're not going to want to waste 3.5 seconds casting Darkest Night only to have it go away after another handful of seconds. And you should probably lead off with Foot Stomp and maybe Taunt anyway to help with aggro control, so now, by the time you use Darkest Night, your anchor is almost dead.
So from that standpoint, it seems only useful on something that lives long enough to serve as an adequate anchor. So an AV. But an AV is going to resist it. I suppose it's useful cast on one of the AVs to help with the adds on the BAF, but those hardly seem to be a survival problem unless they're ignored. So I guess now I'm thinking Barrier plus AoEs to leverage Diagmagnetic. The AoEs are serving double use pulling aggro, so that's good too. Again, I've never used Darkest Night, so I'm still just guessing about how it works in practice. |
You can always hop into the mob then Footstomp and hit DN while they recover but again nothing is staying on its butt for the 3.5 seconds it takes to animate the power.
Taking 16 purples and 4 greens in I can most times get 5-7 crates/containers on my own before I run out of skittles. If one or two teamates stick with me I won't use half of the inspirations becuase either the dps will be high enough we can ignore all the inbound damage or the buff/debuffs make it so I can ignore the inbound damage. This is on a SS/FA with only 35% S/L and 14.9 E/N which is nowhere near as sturdy as the OP's SS/SD
Global: @Kelig
Quote:
EBs don't die that quickly, especially the Warwalkers.|
Originally Posted by Werner
OK, after more thinking, I'm pretty iffy on Darkest Night because it requires an anchor. In most fights, anchors die very quickly. You're not going to want to waste 3.5 seconds casting Darkest Night only to have it go away after another handful of seconds.
|
However, specifically in the case of Lambda I use the crates/containers as my anchor.
Once the anchor is destroyed, its irrelevant that I have lost my anchor - because we are already moving on.
I already use darkest night on several other builds, the cast time is long but is well worth for any fight that you know will not be over in a blitz.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Werner
pAnd you should probably lead off with Foot Stomp and maybe Taunt anyway to help with aggro control, so now, by the time you use Darkest Night, your anchor is almost dead.
|
The activation will occur while you are in mid jump, and by the time you land, Darkest Night is already working. Then its footstomp time (or Soul Drain > SC for my DM/SD Brute)
Sometimes its not that smooth, sometimes you're already in range. At that point its a judgement call, usually Footstomp for breathing room and then Darkest Night or possibly Barrier or T9.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Werner
So from that standpoint, it seems only useful on something that lives long enough to serve as an adequate anchor.
|
If I'm solo, I can simply save that enemy for last. Sometimes on teams people will kill your anchor, but if you choose a tough enough anchor most of the major threat in the mob will be gone by the time it is dead.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by joebartender
The 3.5 seconds is a killer. By the time you cast and then hop into the mob to footstomp your taking a ton more return fire than just jump in Footstomp and then Dark Oblit. That work fine on my SS/FA for soloing Crates on Lambda runs.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by joebartender
Taking 16 purples and 4 greens in I can most times get 5-7 crates/containers on my own before I run out of skittles. If one or two teamates stick with me I won't use half of the inspirations becuase either the dps will be high enough we can ignore all the inbound damage or the buff/debuffs make it so I can ignore the inbound damage. This is on a SS/FA with only 35% S/L and 14.9 E/N which is nowhere near as sturdy as the OP's SS/SD
|
The rest is T3 Greens (6 - 8), T3 Oranges (6 - 8) and Blues (x4).
If I know I'm going to be running a lot of Lambdas, sometimes I pack more blues to deal with the Endurance drains.
On my SS/WP for example - I typically only use them when I know I will really need them, and I use the T3 Oranges to fill in any gaps as needed within cycles of Barrier > T9 > Barrier > Demonic
Quote:
You know its fine if they are nerfing defense for non defense based toons that realistically were never meant to have alot of defense or defensive powers. But its absolute bullsh*t to nerf defense on everyone. Whats an SR character to do when his/her only mitigation is not getting hit over and over? It's not as bad on shield defense because of true grit and one with the shield but its still a problem for them as well.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
IMO, this is as it should be. WP should outsurvive SD because WP only offers survivability, while SD offers offensive boosts with shield charge and AAO.
Having said that, I think the devs are headed towards going overboard in their quest to devalue defense in the game. Defense based toons should not so routinely see their main form of mitigation so easily obliterated. |
Probably some other defense powersets out there having issues as well but I don't play my ice/energy aura enough to notice.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Huge Incoming damage spikes and the the death of the old softcap however, permeate the entirety of both incarnate trials.
|
Quote:
|
I have considered [using Lucks to plug the Incarnate DEF hole], but I think it is a weak solution. Darkest Night means -20% or so damage to everything in a 20 (25?) foot radius along with -14% to hit, it also means I can carry T3 oranges and greens instead of purples. |
Quote:
| Endurance consumption wise [Darkest Night] will most likely force me into Ageless instead of Barrier or Rebirth both of which which would be preferred. |
Quote:
|
The contribution of teammates so far has been hit or miss in my experience. Sometimes you're in a big dogpile of 24 people and you have buffs out the wazoo, and other times you're on an 8 man team that got split into two smaller units of 4 for whatever reason. |
Quote:
| I'll pm the build, and correct I'm not worried about Incarnate AVs as I will have support any time I'm facing them. |
Quote:
|
I usually, at most, carry 1 Tier 3 Purple. The rest is T3 Greens (6 - 8), T3 Oranges (6 - 8) and Blues (x4). |
- WP has high HP, mid-high S/L RES, sporadically decent RES to everything else, a good deal of exotic DEF, and most of all, a large scaling regeneration rate.
- Shield Defense has some +HP, low-middling RES, and very high DEF to all positions.
You're not likely to spend more than about 8-10 minutes playing isolated in the trials. You say yourself that you expect support during the AV fights; obviously you acknowledge that relying on support is a necessary evil, at least some of the time.
None of the above is to say that you shouldn't try to improve your stand-alone mitigation as much as you reasonably can. Darkest Night is a very good idea; I wouldn't hang my hat on a long-activation toggle debuff on a Brute/Tanker, but DN nice to have, especially in AV fights. (-DAM is one of the exceptions to AV debuff resistance, with minor caveats; -ToHit, unfortunately, is not.)
I just don't think it's worth it to make significant trade offs to retune specifically for the Trials. You obviously agree with that. All that remains is to determine the most efficient way to deal with the short-term lapses in mitigation during the trials. YMMV, but I think you're short-changing yourself by prioritizing oranges over purples in a situation where you're sitting within a small luck of the soft cap (and likely nowhere near the RES cap to the relevant damage types in the trials). Layering is good, but it's not always the best option.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
Quote:
Actually, Shield Defense has better across the board resistances to Energy, Negative, Fire, Cold & Toxic than WP (with IO capped RES slotting it would be 17.8% for those for SD and 8.9% for those for WP).|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Ok, so you're happy with your WP's performance and unhappy with your SD's performance. Leaving aside the obvious game-balance wrinkles involved with that comparison, let's just look at the defensive assets of each set:
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Your approach to the trials on the SD has been to plug the healing/RES gaps in your set by carrying lots of orange/green Inspirations and to kinda-sorta plug the Incarnate soft-cap hole with Barrier. My approach would be to replace most of the greens and some of the oranges in your tray with purples and use the absolutely spectacular heal/regen of Rebirth Destiny. As a bonus, you don't even need the purples to be higher than tier 1.
|
The reason I carry T3 Oranges is because Marauder and other AVs have some extremely high DPA attacks and the 35% SM/L Res or so (up to nearly 40% if you really squeeze) that SD gets simply isn't sufficient.
While you are likely to have +DEF from your allies, I find +RES is a rare enough occurrence that I would never count on anyone ever providing it for me.
So I bring my own.
Still, your overall point is valid. I could bring a single column of lucks.
But that only gives me 4 instances of softcapped defense when I need it vs. Darkest Night which will provide on demand softcap.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
You're not likely to spend more than about 8-10 minutes playing isolated in the trials. You say yourself that you expect support during the AV fights; obviously you acknowledge that relying on support is a necessary evil, at least some of the time.
|
My issue is that "support" is a fickle thing that is not always present in consistent amounts or type.
It varies, from trial to trial, depending on transient team composition and player ability.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
None of the above is to say that you shouldn't try to improve your stand-alone mitigation as much as you reasonably can. Darkest Night is a very good idea; I wouldn't hang my hat on a long-activation toggle debuff on a Brute/Tanker, but DN nice to have, especially in AV fights. (-DAM is one of the exceptions to AV debuff resistance, with minor caveats; -ToHit, unfortunately, is not.)
|
Yes it's a long cast time, 3.17s (and not 3.5 as someone else posted), but you can use this proactively.
You can try the jump method I mentioned above (I forget to mention, you want to jump behind the mobs, so they are forced to about-face before they can engage you), or you can simply start the toggle before any enemies notice you.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
I just don't think it's worth it to make significant trade offs to retune specifically for the Trials. You obviously agree with that.
|
The trials are the endgame, and I'm an endgame focused player.
I avoid, whenever possible, leveling down - as I simply do not enjoy it.
This Brute will be running the Trials, CoP, LRSF, Apex, TMTF, ITF & LGTF for the most part, and soloing tip missions (If I can ever find the time to do that again)
At worst, grabbing darkest night will cost me a superfluous travel power (Super Jump), as I already have a travel power (Super Speed) - I kept super jump because its fun, and GV is a pain in the rump.
It will also cost me the Force Feedback proc, which while nice, is nothing that I truly need for the build.
I can already perma double stack rage (which I avoid) with my current recharge slotting, footstomp is on a 5.8s recharge and SC is on 26.19s.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
All that remains is to determine the most efficient way to deal with the short-term lapses in mitigation during the trials. YMMV, but I think you're short-changing yourself by prioritizing oranges over purples in a situation where you're sitting within a small luck of the soft cap (and likely nowhere near the RES cap to the relevant damage types in the trials). Layering is good, but it's not always the best option.
|
That being said, with the planned changes I'm considering my native resistance slotting + OWTS + 1 T3 Orange will see me at the SM/L Res Softcap for 1 full minute.
You make some good points though, and I'm still working out my ideas for the final respec.
I'm thinking Darkest Night, and instead of Diamagnetic which I think will be iffy at best without a Damage Aura to apply it, I might squeeze more -Damage into the build to stack with DN through Paralytic.
I can guarantee myself 2 applications of Paralytic on a group of enemies for an additional -10% damage on top of Darkest Night's -21% (which would just be a bonus at that point).
And I will be able to combine both of those with Void Final Radial Judgement to completely neuter the damage (-70~85%) output of IDF groups for a full 30s (long enough that they will be dead before it wears off) - even against an AV that's around -50% damage total after AV resistances.
Originally I wanted reactive, and I'll probably pick that up for soloing - but so far everyone and their momma has reactive. Probably better to grab something others don't have.
I appreciate the ideas and comments though, you've given me some food for thought.
Could you also not just put your T3 Oranges in Glee-mail and claim them once you get to the AV fight and everywhere else carry your purples/greens/blues?
Quote:
Yes, I should have been clearer. When I said that WP has "sporadically decent resistance to other types," I mean that Strength of Will gives WP decent resistance, but it's not reliably available. It wasn't my intention to imply that Shield has worse RES across the board; in fact, WP's generally inferior resistance is another strike in favor of Rebirth Destiny, because Rebirth basically covers WP's glaring area of strength relative to Shield Defense -- namely, regeneration. That's especially true against Marauder, because you're unlikely (in my experience) to have reliable RttC fodder for that fight.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Actually, Shield Defense has better across the board resistances to Energy, Negative, Fire, Cold & Toxic than WP (with IO capped RES slotting it would be 17.8% for those for SD and 8.9% for those for WP).
|
Rebirth does more for Shield than Barrier does for WP, in other words. The way I see it, Rebirth is just flat-out superior to Barrier, in terms of its numerical benefit over time. Barrier's buff is, in comparable IO-or-power terms, truly massive at the beginning but it quickly tails off into near meaningless territory (unless your build nears the DEF/RES cap without Barrier). Rebirth's buff, by contrast, is very significant even at its weakest point, relative to comparable bonuses in IO sets or powers (getting +200% regeneration from IO bonuses alone is difficult near to the point of implausibility). Some builds will benefit more from Barrier, and multiple Barriers in team situations remain extremely powerful, but Rebirth is almost unreservedly the better solo option if you already have significant mitigation.
I also didn't mean to imply that your taking Darkest Night would be an unreasonable build trade off. It sounds like an excellent idea for you to take Darkest Night, which is a very nice supplement to almost anyone's mitigation because of the damage debuff alone. The ToHit debuff is not exactly equivalent to an equal amount of DEF, though, because the debuff is both resistible and limited by area. It's very likely, for instance, that you'll come under attack by foes that are nowhere near the toggle anchor in the Lambda looting phase.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
|
I have a 50+1 elm/shield scrapper that's fully IOed for the 45% softcap for melee and range, and with the level shifts from destiny and lore, and I can say that honestly, the biggest thing that influenced my survivability was getting those level shifts. Once I did, everything was pretty standard. You might have a bit more issues with survivability with this increased tohit cap, but for those situations, well, usually buffs from teammates help me out tremendously.
Honestly I would only consider it if your main goal was to be the maintank for these trials but even then, they aren't something that you're supposed to be soloing, you SHOULD have teammates backing you up.
I think it has to do more with the devs trying to add some kind of challenge to these trials for defense based characters.
Increasing the to-hit of enemies is the only feasible way to make things more challenging for characters with high defense.
It would not be the slightest bit fair if these trials were a challenge for everyone except the defense based characters, because they are still almost never being hit by anything. They are meant to be a challenge for EVERYONE.
And last I checked, there is no game mechanic or rule that says anything less than completely flooring an enemy's chance to hit you is useless.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
For the SS/SD it would be unlikely I could without Darkest Night, I ran out of T3 oranges last night on several lambda runs (ran out of 8 each run) due to a less than supportive team composition.|
Originally Posted by tektronics
Could you also not just put your T3 Oranges in Glee-mail and claim them once you get to the AV fight and everywhere else carry your purples/greens/blues?
|
And with Darkest Night, I doubt I would need them.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
That's especially true against Marauder, because you're unlikely (in my experience) to have reliable RttC fodder for that fight.
|
- 60% Base SM/L Res (well, 59%, I'm still trying to squeeze that last percent out in mids)
- 2550 HP
- Around 70/hps
- Able to Juggle SoW, Demonic Aura, T4 Barrier, Void Final Radial Judgement and T3 Inspirations
- Darkest Night
It's a very solid package, and I don't expect the SD to come close (nor should it) - I'd just like to not plow through an entire tray of T3 insps of all kinds over the course of a single Lambda.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Rebirth does more for Shield than Barrier does for WP, in other words. The way I see it, Rebirth is just flat-out superior to Barrier, in terms of its numerical benefit over time.
|
Its definitely under consideration, for all of the points you listed.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I think it has to do more with the devs trying to add some kind of challenge to these trials for defense based characters.
|
Resistance based characters with softcapped defenses in the rest of the normal game face less challenges than softcapped defense based sets do.
They get everything from heals, end recovery tools, better across the board resistances, damage auras and sometimes high debuff resistances to special effects (end drain comes immediately to mind).
Def Debuffing can be their kryptonite - but outside of top end SD builds with enough recharge to double stack AD with slotted HOs for improved DDR Shield Defense characters suffer easily as badly as they do in def debuffing situations if not worse.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Increasing the to-hit of enemies is the only feasible way to make things more challenging for characters with high defense.
|
As I said above, they have more tools and better resistances to fall back on.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It would not be the slightest bit fair if these trials were a challenge for everyone except the defense based characters, because they are still almost never being hit by anything. They are meant to be a challenge for EVERYONE.
|
The joke of all of this, and the statements that you are making, is that with Darkest Night - IDF on trials have a harder time hitting my WP brute (10% chance) than my SS/SD brute (20% chance).
I'll let you do the math on which one is more resilient to start with before we even factor that in.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And last I checked, there is no game mechanic or rule that says anything less than completely flooring an enemy's chance to hit you is useless.
|
I really shouldn't have to point you to the math showing what happens when you go from enemies having a 5% chance to hit to a 20% chance to hit.
Claws, it really seems like you have a serious bone to pick with defense based sets. I'm not sure why this animosity is being directed at me.
I've come here for advise and ideas from other people interested in top end survivability against the new content, I did not start some whine fest about the new content. I'm doing this, because I believe future content will be even tougher and I'd like my favorite characters to be ready when the time comes.
So if you are simply not capable of staying on topic, I'm just going to ignore your posts since they are irrelevant.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
What difference does your ability to solo make in a situation where you are NOT SOLOING?
When you are solo, you are just as tough as you ever were, because the base to-hit in the rest of the game has not changed (other than Praetorian DE mobs). The trials are the only place your survivability drops off, and you are with at LEAST a full team the whole time. If you guys aren't seeking solo glory, then why are you so concerned about your melee ATs' ability to perform well on their own in circumstances where it is a given that you will not BE on your own? You are still serving the same purpose you ever do on a team: You are giving the enemies something to shoot at in order to keep the heat off the squishier ATs. That's exactly why all brutes and tanks, and some scrappers have taunt auras. The teamwork here is, other people are keeping you alive with their buffs so you can better keep them alive. |
The problem with your logic here is, if the new mechanics make melee ats just about as squishy as squishies, then they become far less attractive to teams for obvious reasons. Teams with stacking buffs/debuffs are already far more effective than teams with lots of melee, with the new mechanics to eliminate defense, this gap has widened.
For some melee at's, a big chunk of one of their two powersets is dedicated to keeping them alive, and that is being weakened severely by recent trends, while other ats are suffering no losses at all, when buff/debuff was already more powerful, and not coincidentally, more sought after on teams - if you can't see the disparity there then I can only guess you are biased for some reason.
Quote:
I think this is the key here, some builds/powersets get hit much harder than others. SD's mitigation value is severely weakened by the new mechanics, so you're going to see the problem much more so than someone on a claws/regen, because while you're still pissing a ton of bad guys off, you're getting hit a lot more than the guy without a taunt aura that pulls aggro away from tanks.
|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Your claws regen is not an aggro eating machine.
|
Quote:
Not at all, I have a DM/SR brute and a DM/Nin stalker that I enjoy quite a bit, and I have several Shield Defense characters I like just as much. And that post wasn't directed at anyone in particular. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Claws, it really seems like you have a serious bone to pick with defense based sets. I'm not sure why this animosity is being directed at me.
|
I still don't see why you're discarding the fact that if the to-hit had NOT been raised, these trials would be comparatively trivial for defense based characters. Especially the ones that could already solo on +4/x8.
Would it be fair for these trials to be hard for squishies and resistance based sets, but a walk in the park for defense based characters because 95% of everything thrown at them misses? Or do you just get a kick out of being invincible while your teammates get frustrated with repeated faceplants? I'm trying to understand why 14% extra to-hit is such a HUGE deal.
If it has to be made difficult, it has to be made difficult for everyone, not just difficult for everyone who isn't softcapped. And the only way to really make it more difficult for anyone that IS softcapped is to make it easier for things to hit them.
You are very much acting like adding 14% to the enemies' base to-hit makes your entire secondary worthless. That isn't the case. If you REALLY believe that it does, try jumping in with your toggles turned off and see how long you live compared to with them on. I mean, if your entire secondary is worthless in the face of 14% extra to-hit, running in with no toggles should be no problem, right?
Melee has NOT been made worthless or redundant. It has just been made to be more reliant on the other ATs for a change.
I'd imagine that makes the players of those other ATs smile a bit after the last several years of feeling rather useless to you because your melee character didn't really need anything they had to offer.
I don't have a bone to pick with defense based sets. I DO, however, have a problem with the idea that anything LESS than completely flooring everything's to-hit is a waste of time.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Solo glory is not my intent.
Evening the playing field is kind of a silly idea, since support is the most powerful option in the game.