The irony here is priceless. For years there have been people complaining that they weren't powerful enough and now that they devs caved and gave everyone the ability to become incarnates the games not challenging anymore. So I feel obligated to /unsign this because if the devs cave again where does it stop. It'll just be a viscious cycle of giving the players more power then raising the difficulty, then giving players more power again, round and round.
No one held a gun to our heads and forced us to unlock the incarnate stuff.
Weirdly enough there are probably more people out there who are now happy that they can tackle +1 or +2 MOBs (instead of being stuck at -1 or +0) than there are people who easily handled +4s before.
I'm not necessarily against the idea of getting something harder than +4. But by the same token I'd be fairly surprised to ever see that happen. *shrugs*
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Well I am with the others that this could to lead to more issues than it is worth. Incarnates are just going to be that powerful.
Another item is that from my understanding of the game, mobs are set up as versions for each level - meaning that there is a lvl50 council, a lvl51 council, a lvl52 council, etc. And that they would have to make new versions say for lvl55 and beyond, for every single mob. Just how many players would benefit from all that work?
Only thing that comes to mind is a pseudo-GM code that the mobs could use and be set above lvl54 so they always con higher than you no matter what Incarnate level you are. Again, no idea on benefit and work involved.
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What you describe is how the entire game works. Gaining new powers to fight ever more powerful foes is the entire point of RPGs, not a vicious cycle.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
It'll just be a viscious cycle of giving the players more power then raising the difficulty, then giving players more power again, round and round.
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I can understand that people are afraid that there will be others complaining then that their toons need to be more powerful but lets face it, people will always complain.
Without incarnates it was already fairly easy in a good team (and with that I mean a team of players that know how their powers work and not a fully pimped out toon team) to defeat all at +4.
I don't mind facing a challenge from time to time just to have some fun and see if it can be done. Sure, if Devs would allow +10 mobs then I will probably fail but hey, at least I tried.
I have teamed with lots of teams where we simply had fun trying (even if we didn't succeed we had plenty of fun trying all kinds of tactics).
I won't moan if Dev won't offer the option. For me it would be a 'nice to have' thing but not something critical.
Already available in Orobouros - Click "Enemies Buffed", and/or "Players Debuffed".
You're welcome. 
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
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Obviously you have very little experience actually playing RPG's or the people you played RPG's with have very little experience actually running them. The point of RPG's isn't about getting more powerful, it's about Role Playing. That's why they are called Role Playing Games.|
Originally Posted by Pampl
What you describe is how the entire game works. Gaining new powers to fight ever more powerful foes is the entire point of RPGs, not a vicious cycle.
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This game is unique among MMO's because it embraced the RPG philosophy and focused on the journey and not the destination. That's why we have been given the ability to have hundreds of characters on each account, and a couple hundred possible combinations of powersets.
Your probably not aware of this. At our overwhelming request the devs added the ability to turn off earning experience. Why? Because the players in this game are more interested in playing the content for it's own sake than they are about getting more and more powerful. If they want that, they go to WoW.
I think different people have different ideas about the 'point' of RPGs... no real point in arguing who's right over this; everyone is. And this is also something that makes the Devs jobs more difficult, balancing different sets of needs and desires.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
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Yup, I love those options. Depending on the mob type it can change a whole battle |
Originally Posted by galadiman
Already available in Orobouros - Click "Enemies Buffed", and/or "Players Debuffed".
You're welcome. |
How is it hard to find orange/red/purple mobs when fighting at +4?
At +4, you're still at max level 51 outside of the trials.
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I thought the context would be obvious, given that this is a forum hosted by and devoted to a cRPG, but I was talking about cRPGs. Talking about PnP RPGs is as relevant as talking about rocket propelled grenades.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Obviously you have very little experience actually playing RPG's or the people you played RPG's with have very little experience actually running them. The point of RPG's isn't about getting more powerful, it's about Role Playing. That's why they are called Role Playing Games.
This game is unique among MMO's because it embraced the RPG philosophy and focused on the journey and not the destination. That's why we have been given the ability to have hundreds of characters on each account, and a couple hundred possible combinations of powersets. Your probably not aware of this. At our overwhelming request the devs added the ability to turn off earning experience. Why? Because the players in this game are more interested in playing the content for it's own sake than they are about getting more and more powerful. If they want that, they go to WoW. |
You just described the journey as a vicious cycle. There is no one "RPG philosophy" that focuses on the journey and not the destination, by the way- look back at D&D's High Level Handbook for proof. Since you're talking about "actual" RPGs, the overwhelming majority of them have leveling systems that involve the "[vicious] cycle" of getting more powerful and fighting more powerful enemies. If players didn't want that they'd be doing improv instead.
Why bother with a higher difficulty at 50? You don't get anything extra for fighting higher level enemies except more inf.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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You are the one who specifically mentioned RPG's. If you actually meant to say MMO then you should have used the correct terminology.|
Originally Posted by Pampl
I thought the context would be obvious, given that this is a forum hosted by and devoted to a cRPG, but I was talking about cRPGs. Talking about PnP RPGs is as relevant as talking about rocket propelled grenades.
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| You just described the journey as a vicious cycle. |
Reading comprehension try it sometime.
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| There is no one "RPG philosophy" that focuses on the journey and not the destination, by the way- look back at D&D's High Level Handbook for proof. Since you're talking about "actual" RPGs, the overwhelming majority of them have leveling systems that involve the "[vicious] cycle" of getting more powerful and fighting more powerful enemies. If players didn't want that they'd be doing improv instead. |
GURPS
Champions
Shadowrun
Call Of Cthulhu
Amber
are just a few examples of the many RPG's that don't focus on leveling.
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I had written out a post in a tone similar to your own but decided to delete it. You're clearly a child, and given your obvious difficulties understanding basic English not a very bright one, so it would be cruel to pick on you. Instead I'll try to patiently explain the point again in simple language: nearly all RPGs, and all cRPGs, have the "journey" that's a "viscious[sic] cycle of giving the players more power then raising the difficulty". That journey is at the heart of CoH. Adding new more challenging content won't stop you from RPing in Pocket D all day, and it will extend the gameplay for people who actually enjoy it, so there's no reason not to do it.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
You are the one who specifically mentioned RPG's. If you actually meant to say MMO then you should have used the correct terminology.
No I stated that constantly raising the difficulty and then making the players more powerful just because you raised the difficulty is a vicious cycle. Reading comprehension try it sometime. No they don't. GURPS Champions Shadowrun Call Of Cthulhu Amber are just a few examples of the many RPG's that don't focus on leveling. |
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Originally Posted by Pampl
I had written out a post in a tone similar to your own but decided to delete it. You're clearly a child, and given your obvious difficulties understanding basic English not a very bright one, so it would be cruel to pick on you. Instead I'll try to patiently explain the point again in simple language: nearly all RPGs, and all cRPGs, have the "journey" that's a "viscious[sic] cycle of giving the players more power then raising the difficulty". That journey is at the heart of CoH. Adding new more challenging content won't stop you from RPing in Pocket D all day, and it will extend the gameplay for people who actually enjoy it, so there's no reason not to do it.
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Still haven't learned to comprehend what you read huh? The OP's suggestion isn't about adding new more challenging content. It's about increasing the difficulty of the existing content.
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Originally Posted by AnnaPuna
I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but here goes:
Currently we can set our mission difficulty to +4 levels max. That would sometimes produce some nice challenges (depending on AT/team setup). Now that the incarnate levels have been introduced it is getting very hard to find mobs that show orange/red/purple. If possible I would like to see the possibility to set the mob levels higher than +4. I know I can take out the alphaslot but I would prefer it if we would be given the option to set the difficulty to higher levels. The XP can stay the same as +4 mobs as I mostly do this anyways on my level 50 toons to enjoy some challenge. AP |
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You are hardly the first RPGer I've seen with this attitude and it always irritates me. There are many, many ways to play RPGs and there is no "one true path". It's not a matter of skill or experience, it's a matter of preference.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Obviously you have very little experience actually playing RPG's or the people you played RPG's with have very little experience actually running them. The point of RPG's isn't about getting more powerful, it's about Role Playing. That's why they are called Role Playing Games.
|
Some people enjoy playing solely to gain power and use it to vanquish more powerful foes. Others prefer to minimize that sort of thing and focus on the story. In my experience, however, most people prefer a middle path where they combine story telling with the chance to punch monsters in the face.
At the end of the day what really matters is that everyone involved has fun. Most of the horror stories you hear about RPG players really come down to having a player whose personal style and preferences were incompatible with the rest of the group (although in some cases the problem player is deriving enjoyment from upsetting the others which is a different topic).
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There are some who like to fight enemies higher level than themselves and not just "Oh look, I can lay waste to groups of blues"|
Originally Posted by Vanden
Why bother with a higher difficulty at 50? You don't get anything extra for fighting higher level enemies except more inf.
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It's kinda like AV soloing.
Going "Yeah, I took down Positron" (or any signature character) is more impressive if he's an AV than if he's a watered down EB.
I do it from an RP perspective. If my character can't take them down as an AV, then they can't take them down.
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And I now feel compelled to go Google for the Real Men/Real Roleplayers/Real Munchkins lists that probably vanished with Usenet...
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
You are hardly the first RPGer I've seen with this attitude and it always irritates me. There are many, many ways to play RPGs and there is no "one true path". It's not a matter of skill or experience, it's a matter of preference.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
You are hardly the first RPGer I've seen with this attitude and it always irritates me. There are many, many ways to play RPGs and there is no "one true path". It's not a matter of skill or experience, it's a matter of preference.
Some people enjoy playing solely to gain power and use it to vanquish more powerful foes. Others prefer to minimize that sort of thing and focus on the story. In my experience, however, most people prefer a middle path where they combine story telling with the chance to punch monsters in the face. At the end of the day what really matters is that everyone involved has fun. Most of the horror stories you hear about RPG players really come down to having a player whose personal style and preferences were incompatible with the rest of the group (although in some cases the problem player is deriving enjoyment from upsetting the others which is a different topic). |
Adeon all that you have said doesn't change the fact that the primary focus of every RPG is to engage players imaginations with colorful storylines and entice them into playing a role in the game. Whether or not the players embrace the idea or choose to minimize it is a different issue.
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When you're older you'll learn that behaving like an adult means not throwing these tantrums. In the meantime, though, you need to learn that quibbling over semantics is the hallmark of a losing argument, not a sign of strength. The original post is asking for an extension of the part of the game that he enjoys - an extension that requires virtually no dev time - and you opposed it. It doesn't matter if you call it new content, or just new difficulty, or new smoogligoogli, you're still opposing an extension of the core gameplay of CoX because you don't approve of it.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Still haven't learned to comprehend what you read huh? The OP's suggestion isn't about adding new more challenging content. It's about increasing the difficulty of the existing content.
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And yet what's being requested makes little sense.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Some people enjoy playing solely to gain power and use it to vanquish more powerful foes. Others prefer to minimize that sort of thing and focus on the story. In my experience, however, most people prefer a middle path where they combine story telling with the chance to punch monsters in the face.
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You gain the alpha slots to become powerful. You become powerful by minimilizing the foes either through sheer damage or sheer mitigation. Asking to make the regular game *harder* will simply make us *weaker* by comparison. What is being requested isn't presenting us with more powerful foes to vanquish, it's just giving us the same stupid predictable AI that underminds your power by means of the purple patch.
Now I can get behind foes that have unbelievable power that you need to use tactics to win, but just asking for foes that have more HP, higher damage, resist my debuffs/controls and slice through a portion of my defense...that's just dumb...>_>
Here's an idea: How about the ability to turn off all +lvl buffs from alpha slots? You can keep the actual buff/powers but the enemies will show as normal level.
Frankly if you want harder content go to the AE and fight AVs. Its already available and only takes your own effort to create difficult enemies.
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That's not a bad point, but I think you're overstating it a little.. even stupid AI requires better and/or new tactics to defeat if it's throwing around higher numbers. Turning the difficulty up from 0 to +4 only gives foes more HP, higher damage, etc. but it's still more challenging and requires more thought. Going from +4 to +6 would be similar.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
What is being requested isn't presenting us with more powerful foes to vanquish, it's just giving us the same stupid predictable AI that underminds your power by means of the purple patch.
Now I can get behind foes that have unbelievable power that you need to use tactics to win, but just asking for foes that have more HP, higher damage, resist my debuffs/controls and slice through a portion of my defense...that's just dumb...>_> |
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Well just to recap:|
Originally Posted by Pampl
That's not a bad point, but I think you're overstating it a little.. even stupid AI requires better and/or new tactics to defeat if it's throwing around higher numbers. Turning the difficulty up from 0 to +4 only gives foes more HP, higher damage, etc. but it's still more challenging and requires more thought. Going from +4 to +6 would be similar.
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-After Enhancement Diversification, players complained about not feeling 'Super'.
-Devs give us IOs and Incarnate stuff. Now you're super.
-And here we are, asking for harder content, not through challenge, but through *taking away* the power we work hard to obtain via resisting us through means of the purple patch.
I think the point beyond that is asking for a higher level cap and undoing ED.
I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but here goes:
Currently we can set our mission difficulty to +4 levels max. That would sometimes produce some nice challenges (depending on AT/team setup). Now that the incarnate levels have been introduced it is getting very hard to find mobs that show orange/red/purple.
If possible I would like to see the possibility to set the mob levels higher than +4.
I know I can take out the alphaslot but I would prefer it if we would be given the option to set the difficulty to higher levels.
The XP can stay the same as +4 mobs as I mostly do this anyways on my level 50 toons to enjoy some challenge.
AP