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Posted

In principle, I'm all for eliminating minimum team sizes on task forces so long as there is fair warning and an enforcement of literal minimums (if there's a mission with four simultaneous blinkies, the minimum has to be four).

However, as a practical matter there are a lot of players who believe that if the devs allow it they condone it, and if they condone it they should make it accessible. Meaning: if you allow two people to start Numina, people will complain two people can't finish it successfully. They'll say there should be a switch to downscale everything including the AVs to just the right level of difficulty to make their duo able to finish it: that it should be tuned for them, because they represent the "normal" players and not the "power gamers."

I like challenges. I would attempt to solo every task force that was logistically soloable if I could. This is a feature I would make a lot of use of: its been a long time since I've soloed a task force. But not at the expense of having to listen to people complain about the slippery slope surrounding task force difficulty or unlimited content accessibility.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
In principle, I'm all for eliminating minimum team sizes on task forces so long as there is fair warning and an enforcement of literal minimums (if there's a mission with four simultaneous blinkies, the minimum has to be four).

However, as a practical matter there are a lot of players who believe that if the devs allow it they condone it, and if they condone it they should make it accessible. Meaning: if you allow two people to start Numina, people will complain two people can't finish it successfully. They'll say there should be a switch to downscale everything including the AVs to just the right level of difficulty to make their duo able to finish it: that it should be tuned for them, because they represent the "normal" players and not the "power gamers."

I like challenges. I would attempt to solo every task force that was logistically soloable if I could. This is a feature I would make a lot of use of: its been a long time since I've soloed a task force. But not at the expense of having to listen to people complain about the slippery slope surrounding task force difficulty or unlimited content accessibility.
i agree completely, but i think if a warning is given that this is a task force meant to be for X number of poeple, and if you run with less than that and cannot finish, thats not the devs or the tfs problem. it would be like a disclaimer/liability waiver, they could get a popup warning saying they are attempting to run with under the minimum requirement for team size and if they fail, its not the fault of the system since they are choosing to partake in the challenge

it would be similar to the ouro mini tfs, but it would follow the standard rules for task forces in that AVs wont downgrade to EBs and cant go below -1 difficulty


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master View Post
i agree completely, but i think if a warning is given that this is a task force meant to be for X number of poeple, and if you run with less than that and cannot finish, thats not the devs or the tfs problem. it would be like a disclaimer/liability waiver, they could get a popup warning saying they are attempting to run with under the minimum requirement for team size and if they fail, its not the fault of the system since they are choosing to partake in the challenge

it would be similar to the ouro mini tfs, but it would follow the standard rules for task forces in that AVs wont downgrade to EBs and cant go below -1 difficulty
Nobody cares what the game says or what the devs think when it comes to what they believe is "reasonable." The sad truth is that it is generally easier to avoid debatable situations rather than deal with the amount of debate those debatable situations will generate.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
In principle, I'm all for eliminating minimum team sizes on task forces so long as there is fair warning and an enforcement of literal minimums (if there's a mission with four simultaneous blinkies, the minimum has to be four).
Aside from the Cavern of Transcendence, where simultaneous clicking is the whole trial, I can't think of a single task force or mission that uses this outdated mechanic that would be any worse off if it were removed.

The Sewer Trial probably falls in the category of "might as well have a literal minimum" though. Now I eagerly await the announcement that someone has soloed the sewer trial.

Quote:
However, as a practical matter there are a lot of players who believe that if the devs allow it they condone it, and if they condone it they should make it accessible. Meaning: if you allow two people to start Numina, people will complain two people can't finish it successfully. They'll say there should be a switch to downscale everything including the AVs to just the right level of difficulty to make their duo able to finish it: that it should be tuned for them, because they represent the "normal" players and not the "power gamers."
Fine then. Add a "solo option." Works just like Ouroboros, the AVs scale down to EBs and you can run it on -1. But you don't get the badge and the merit rewards are based on story arc criteria. Doesn't count for the WST either. That way, all content is accessible to everyone.

Unlike the Barracuda TF, which is very likely to not be completable with a team of the minimum size and lacking the right ATs, and you don't even get a warning about that.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
In principle, I'm all for eliminating minimum team sizes on task forces so long as there is fair warning and an enforcement of literal minimums (if there's a mission with four simultaneous blinkies, the minimum has to be four).

However, as a practical matter there are a lot of players who believe that if the devs allow it they condone it, and if they condone it they should make it accessible. Meaning: if you allow two people to start Numina, people will complain two people can't finish it successfully. They'll say there should be a switch to downscale everything including the AVs to just the right level of difficulty to make their duo able to finish it: that it should be tuned for them, because they represent the "normal" players and not the "power gamers."

I like challenges. I would attempt to solo every task force that was logistically soloable if I could. This is a feature I would make a lot of use of: its been a long time since I've soloed a task force. But not at the expense of having to listen to people complain about the slippery slope surrounding task force difficulty or unlimited content accessibility.
If this were to be offered, the only way I can think of would be to put it behind some kind of barrier instead of just at the actual TF contacts. A sub-zone of Oro, perhaps.

Removing it from normal game flow could reduce (but admittedly not eliminate) the likelihood that people would consider it "the normal content, therefore I should be able to do it".


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress View Post
If this were to be offered, the only way I can think of would be to put it behind some kind of barrier instead of just at the actual TF contacts. A sub-zone of Oro, perhaps.

Removing it from normal game flow could reduce (but admittedly not eliminate) the likelihood that people would consider it "the normal content, therefore I should be able to do it".
What about the difficulty slider NPCs?

"I want to be able to start taskforces Solo / I no longer want to be able to start taskforces Solo."

Allows one to start TFs below the TF minimum, sets bosses and AVs on. Make the whole team need this setting on if you want, that way everyone knows what they're getting into.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Nobody cares what the game says or what the devs think when it comes to what they believe is "reasonable." The sad truth is that it is generally easier to avoid debatable situations rather than deal with the amount of debate those debatable situations will generate.
No one makes the case that they should be able to complete TFs with all the difficulty settings (players debuffed, foes buffed, no insp, no temp powers, etc...) on UBER!! And yet, they could do that. That's not interpreted as Dev-endorsed content.

If one of those difficulty settings were "Ignore minimum size", then it really shouldn't be a problem, just as long as there wasn't a badge attached to that setting.


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Posted

If you need to remove the bages for the option to do TF's with 1 person or 2 or whatever, then fine with me.

I just want to do the content at my own pace.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
No one makes the case that they should be able to complete TFs with all the difficulty settings (players debuffed, foes buffed, no insp, no temp powers, etc...) on UBER!! And yet, they could do that. That's not interpreted as Dev-endorsed content.

If one of those difficulty settings were "Ignore minimum size", then it really shouldn't be a problem, just as long as there wasn't a badge attached to that setting.
Because that's setting things subjectively higher. Not harder: higher. Setting the minimum team size downward is setting things lower, towards more accessibility. The whole *reason* for asking for this is to allow for more accessibility. And with that accessibility comes a far higher probability of players interpreting that increase in accessibility as being a specific statement about the amount of accessibility the game is "intended" to have, disclaimers notwithstanding.

We know that there is a percentage of the players that believes this game's manifest destiny is unlimited accessibility of all features: for soloers, time limited players, anyone. There's no slippery slope that says if something can be done, it should be doable under restrictions. There is one that says if anyone can do it, everyone should be able to. If I can solo a task force, that means its intended to be soloable, and if its intended to be soloable, it should be given difficulty options that make it soloable. After all, all the hard work has already been done by removing the team limit. Now you just have to add these difficulty features, and everyone will be able to solo that task force, which is what this game is supposed to be doing.

Its not like I'm making up that line of thought. In fact, just replace "task force" with "arch villain" and I'm actually just paraphrasing history.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
I assumed that was a given. They'd still be "intended for teams," but it's been demonstrated time and time again that people can run them with far less than the minimum team size, so why make people looking for a challenge jump through a bunch of hoops to get it?
/signed x 1000

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

I have been saying for AGES that I would love to be able to solo TFs (in no small part because-- despite having played from launch-- I have not been able to play more than roughly half of the TFs because can never get on a team to do them (limited play time)).

I would happily go through the TFs with no reward just be be able to see them. Also, this would make my character feel epic. My favourite story to do with my main tank is the Jade Spider, because it's as close as I have ever felt to soloing a TF.


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Posted

As was already pointed out in this thread or the other (can't remember), there's not really an overwhelming amount of complaints from people not being able to take on a Barracuda SF with 4 members on a team without a MM or a defender ; yet I guarantee you doing so is much harder than soloing most TFs, including soloing the ITF.

For that matter, even taking on a LRSF or a STF with a full team is harder than soloing a Posi TF if everyone on the team is inexperienced.

The comparison with AVs in story arcs doesn't work for me. Story arcs were pretty much the core content of the game at that point, and soloists who couldn't take on one AV had no option save for asking for help, outleveling the big bad, streetsweep or leave one mission slot, out of three, locked forever.

Task Forces are optional team content, and there's plenty of other means of progression today ; more importantly, much more efficient means of progression. Want experience? Go in AE. Want purples? Solo farm your favorite demon/BM/Boomtown map. Want merits? Do tips, or run on a team for faster completion. Want incarnate shards? Run on a team, faster drops and completion for the end component. Want incarnate threads? Run trials.

Let's talk about the trials. We can start a Lambda with 8 players or a BAF with 12 players, but how often do you actually see people forming minimum size leagues? It certainly happens, I see it daily and I do it personally, but most teams will aim for the maximum size or nothing.

As far as I can tell, most people don't really care about what devs condone or not, or about doing stuff with the minimum size, they want the shinies and they want as many folks with them as possible to maximize chances of getting said shinies without too much trouble. I'm willing to bet if tomorrow, the game was patched and TFs suddenly didn't require more than one person to start, we wouldn't hear much... Because most would still be in Pocket D or RWZ asking for a BAF.

Those of us who are interested in low/no requirements TFs would be in it for the challenge or to be able to experience that content at our own pace and would know what we'd be getting into, and while no thing is absolute and that there inevitably would be at least one person complaining as there is always, I can't see the amount of backlash that might result from such a change being anything more than a blip on the radar.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Because that's setting things subjectively higher. Not harder: higher. Setting the minimum team size downward is setting things lower, towards more accessibility. The whole *reason* for asking for this is to allow for more accessibility. And with that accessibility comes a far higher probability of players interpreting that increase in accessibility as being a specific statement about the amount of accessibility the game is "intended" to have, disclaimers notwithstanding.
Well, if the problem you're presenting (and, to be fair, I do see where you're coming from) is one of "perception", you can go about it in a slightly roundabout way so that soloing TFs can be seen as "higher difficulty".

Currently: "You need 8 heroes or villains on your team"
Change to: "Your team needs to be equivalent to 8 standard heroes or villains"

How you get to it (one player claiming he's equivalent to 8 players, or two of them saying they're as good as 4 each) is up to the group. But in any case, you need to go and set your difficulty settings higher than default.

(I think "equivalent" is the word that is used by the Hero Corps NPC, but I can't check since the servers are down; I'm sure you get what I mean though).


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Posted

Not that I don't like the idea, but... wouldn't this make things a bit harder for those people playing characters that can only do a TF as part of a team to find a good team to join?


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Posted

It would, but the question is "how much harder". I'm guessing it'd be unsignificant, certainly nothing compared to how much harder it got since I20 compared to before.

I obviously don't have solid statistics to back up my point of view, but from anecdotal evidence I'm willing to bet the vast majority of pickup groups (SG and friends teams are irrelevant in that context because these teams are already closed off to strangers) run task forces at maximum team size. If people run at 8 on a task force where the minimum is 4, changing that minimum to 2 or 1 doesn't seem likely to result in a massive shift in the way people team, at least the way I see it.

It could be argued that some people, once finding out they are forced to team, don't care if it's 4, 6, 8 or 24 players, whereas if they had the option of soloing, they wouldn't team. I don't know. I doubt that a large enough number of players would do that and make teams significantly harder to find, but I don't know.

If there's one guy out of ten that decides to stop teaming and solo TFs exclusively, you're still left with 9/10 as much people to team with as before. Hardly a difference that you would notice even if you looked for it, I think.

If anything, I'm surprised the objections to this suggestion aren't of the opposite sort ; namely that there might not be enough players interested in lower member size task forces to warrant developer resources spent on this.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Rabid_M View Post
Not that I don't like the idea, but... wouldn't this make things a bit harder for those people playing characters that can only do a TF as part of a team to find a good team to join?
Possibly. But I don't think it would have much impact on them. And even if it did, I'm ok with that. If that means I'm not forced to team for a Task Force, I'm happy.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid_M View Post
Not that I don't like the idea, but... wouldn't this make things a bit harder for those people playing characters that can only do a TF as part of a team to find a good team to join?
People who can and want to solo these things are a minority, and probably always will be. I doubt they would have any significant impact on people who wish to team for them, any more than setting minimum team sizes to four is discouraging people from filling the team.

I think most of the people who would be soloing TFs are people who either can't commit to a team, so they wouldn't be joining team TFs anyway, or who want the challenge, so they wouldn't bother running the TF with a team. The number of potential teammates who would go solo the TF if the option existed is probably not that significant.


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