They need to do something about "time dilation" lag, you ask me.
By
Crimson Vanquisher,
Posted on: 2011-04-14 21:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Yeah. Ship raids, invasions, even some 8-man-team TFs. I'm not sure what needs to be improved, but I can't help but think what someone experiencing this game for the first time being exposed to this effect on so much of its "big" content.
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I feel useless in the trials because of this. I lag and totally miss the target and waste a shot on many of my powers. Drives me crazy...
And, yes, I was on a failed BAF due to the prisoners and I was having difficulty getting any of my powers to activate to kill or slow them down.
I just want to punch the computer on the trials....
@Joshua.
Before, it was fine...
Then suddenly everything started lagging during the prisoner phase. ANd every stage on both has power lag. Godawful bloody power lag...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
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I think the main cause behind it all is old and inefficient netcode. That, and the silly amount of data the server has to transfer between clients for not only the mundane stuff like player and npc positions, health stats, powers in use etc; but also costume data, power customisation data, buff data etc, etc. Loads and loads of stuff, lots of it which the old netcode the game was written with never had to handle.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Before, it was fine...
Then suddenly everything started lagging during the prisoner phase. ANd every stage on both has power lag. Godawful bloody power lag... |
I just don't think they ever updated it, and that's why we now have huge amounts of network lag whenever there's more than a single team on the go. It's still using the old dialup friendly netcode.
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Note that when the escapees are out, there are upwards of two dozen NPCs, each pathing to a target, and each emitting an AoE confuse aura. I don't think the netcode (whether it's old or new) is able to handle that kind of action.
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
I think the main cause behind it all is old and inefficient netcode. That, and the silly amount of data the server has to transfer between clients for not only the mundane stuff like player and npc positions, health stats, powers in use etc; but also costume data, power customisation data, buff data etc, etc. Loads and loads of stuff, lots of it which the old netcode the game was written with never had to handle.
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While I can't comment on whether they have good or bad network code, this isn't an accurate description of the problem.|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
I think the main cause behind it all is old and inefficient netcode. That, and the silly amount of data the server has to transfer between clients for not only the mundane stuff like player and npc positions, health stats, powers in use etc; but also costume data, power customisation data, buff data etc, etc. Loads and loads of stuff, lots of it which the old netcode the game was written with never had to handle.
I just don't think they ever updated it, and that's why we now have huge amounts of network lag whenever there's more than a single team on the go. It's still using the old dialup friendly netcode. |
Bad network lag means you do something, and it registers later instead of immediately. That's not the same thing as time slowing down.
This "time dilation" means that the server is slowing down, not the network transmissions. This is why our powers don't recharge in time. Our client (and we players) think X seconds have passed. But the server doesn't think in terms of "X seconds have passed". It thinks in terms of elapsed "ticks". A tick is a discrete processing pass in which the server updates all the things that should have changed since the last tick, like where things have moved to based on their current velocity, or how much our powers have recharged.
Normally, so many ticks happen every second, making server-side processing feel real-time. When the server can't keep up, because too much is going on, each tick takes longer than planned. The server doesn't skip ticks, rather it just each one take longer, and when they take longer than their "tick/second" target, the server's version of elapsed time starts getting slower than real time.
You can also experience network lag, but that's not what the OP was describing.
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Ticks do not take longer just because there's more to do. A tick is a tick and always takes the same about of time. However, having to send MORE packets than it used too (remember, the netcode is still 56k friendly, so the packetsize is unchanged, there are just more packets), will take more ticks to do the "same" thing. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
While I can't comment on whether they have good or bad network code, this isn't an accurate description of the problem.
Bad network lag means you do something, and it registers later instead of immediately. That's not the same thing as time slowing down. This "time dilation" means that the server is slowing down, not the network transmissions. This is why our powers don't recharge in time. Our client (and we players) think X seconds have passed. But the server doesn't think in terms of "X seconds have passed". It thinks in terms of elapsed "ticks". A tick is a discrete processing pass in which the server updates all the things that should have changed since the last tick, like where things have moved to based on their current velocity, or how much our powers have recharged. Normally, so many ticks happen every second, making server-side processing feel real-time. When the server can't keep up, because too much is going on, each tick takes longer than planned. The server doesn't skip ticks, rather it just each one take longer, and when they take longer than their "tick/second" target, the server's version of elapsed time starts getting slower than real time. You can also experience network lag, but that's not what the OP was describing. |
The client handles the UI aspect of when powers are recharged, so that doesn't slow down at all, but as the server just hasn't sent you the recharged packet yet, you get the "ooom" when you fire it.
@FloatingFatMan
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This flies in the face of explanations for things like why the "valley of lag" happens in the ITF. The explanation given to us by the devs (Castle specifically) was about server side processing only. The "ally in range" calculations for the Cimeroran's version of the Shiedl Defense powerset, plus the processing time of the AI patrols and ambush pathing, were given as the reasons for the processing delays on that map. Nothing about that suggest that extra network data is involved - the Shield Defense and AI calculations are entirely serverside.
Unless you can indicate that the information you describe about the netcode being at fault came from a dev, I do not believe it to be the root cause.
Edit: I also don't believe you are correct about ticks being fixed in duration. Each tick is a point in time when the server is supposed to do a fixed list of update tasks. It is not typical for this processing loop to abort before completion, as this would lead to a lack of determinism about what has been completed without careful gatekeeping around each thing that needs to be updated. Adding the requisite atomicity to the sub-tasks to ensure they can be safely aborted mid "tick update" would add expense. Therefore, when there is more processing than can be completed in a single tick timecycle, the next tick is usually simply delayed.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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This issue has been around for a long time. It's weird that they decided to to focus on multi-team content without first resolving this issue. Yes, you do get that lag in the 3rd mission of the ITF, but outside of that I don't think I've ever experienced it in single-team content.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Yeah. Ship raids, invasions, even some 8-man-team TFs. I'm not sure what needs to be improved, but I can't help but think what someone experiencing this game for the first time being exposed to this effect on so much of its "big" content.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Before, it was fine...
Then suddenly everything started lagging during the prisoner phase. |
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I thought it was just me.
I've actually stopped playing the game these last two days thinking my ISP was having some problems that would just blow over in a week.
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This reminds me that someone suggested that the AoE confuse on the prisoners is likely to blame. Personally, I think it should be removed, because I've never been affected by it or seen anyone affected by it. In theory, it's interesting. In practice, it serves little purpose but to contribute to server lag.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This flies in the face of explanations for things like why the "valley of lag" happens in the ITF. The explanation given to us by the devs (Castle specifically) was about server side processing only. The "ally in range" calculations for the Cimeroran's version of the Shiedl Defense powerset, plus the processing time of the AI patrols and ambush pathing, were given as the reasons for the processing delays on that map. Nothing about that suggest that extra network data is involved - the Shield Defense and AI calculations are entirely serverside.
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It's also a little frustrating to know that they know why the third mission of the ITF has that lag, but they haven't resolved it. They could change Cimerorans to just have a set Def buff instead of the AoE buff, as they all converge on their targets almost immediately, and the shout gives them enough KB resistance that they can't be scattered. The AoE buff is interesting in theory, but again, in practice it serves little purpose but to contribute to server lag.
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Not weird at all, when you consider both the Neuron mentality the dev team often slips into, and that the ITF is still extremely popular despite this issue. Many players have shown a willingness to put up with it, so they just plow ahead regardless.
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Originally Posted by Liquid
This issue has been around for a long time. It's weird that they decided to to focus on multi-team content without first resolving this issue. Yes, you do get that lag in the 3rd mission of the ITF, but outside of that I don't think I've ever experienced it in single-team content.
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If the latter is the case, then we're in a catch-22. If the content is unpopular due to the problem, allocating resources is low priority because it won't affect very many people. If the content is popular, it must not be a problem, so why allocate resources? |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Not weird at all, when you consider both the Neuron mentality the dev team often slips into, and that the ITF is still extremely popular despite this issue. Many players have shown a willingness to put up with it, so they just plow ahead regardless.
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The same thing could be said about BAF. It appears to me to be the most popular content in the game right now, based on global channel activity. Whether it is or not, in my book, fixing that lag should be higher priority than any new content, and higher priority than any design requirement for AoE confuses on the prisoners, or whatever is causing it. Its existence makes the game look bad. Can you imagine people who wanted an end game, that left during the old Hamidon days when it was a slide show, coming back to see this and saying, "they still haven't fixed that?" I hope it's very high on their list of priorities, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Or they could remove some of the mobs in the zone. Do any teams fly up to fight those hundreds of engineers on the tops of the buildings? Those are mobs that aren't doing anything and have no impact in the trial except to suck processor time out of the server.|
Originally Posted by Liquid
It's also a little frustrating to know that they know why the third mission of the ITF has that lag, but they haven't resolved it. They could change Cimerorans to just have a set Def buff instead of the AoE buff, as they all converge on their targets almost immediately, and the shout gives them enough KB resistance that they can't be scattered.
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The fact that they haven't done this tells me that the extra mobs may not be the major source of lag, and the devs have a policy of only making big changes instead of small tweaks even if the tweaks would help. Whether it's bureaucracy or just tunnel vision, our devs do not like improving old content to improve gameplay. The BAF may change their attitude, as it's broken enough to crash servers.
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I actually joined a kill every living thing and scorch the earth afterwards ITF.
We actually didn't get any lag at the top of the 3rd mission. We had slight lag at the bottom but I was pulling the top down and 2 taks were seperately pulling the bottom and we were meeting at the bridge and slaughtering it all.
It was a wild ITF took 2 hours and not one single minion was left on any map and I got 12 shards!
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I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I've done one ITF like that which was fun too. What it comes down to though, is that the occasional Scorched Earth run is really just a bit of extra fun for some people. When it comes down to "provide an opportunity for extra fun for some" vs "remove something that causes less fun for all" I'd go with the second option every time.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I actually joined a kill every living thing and scorch the earth afterwards ITF.
We actually didn't get any lag at the top of the 3rd mission. We had slight lag at the bottom but I was pulling the top down and 2 taks were seperately pulling the bottom and we were meeting at the bridge and slaughtering it all. It was a wild ITF took 2 hours and not one single minion was left on any map and I got 12 shards! |
The same goes for the escaping prisoners and their confuse. "A teensy bit of extra challenge" vs "guaranteed annoyance and possible failure due to circumstances beyond the player's control." Any time players can fail something due to technical issues the design of the task really needs another lookover. Efficiency Expert Pither used to be a prime example of this, before the "abandon mission" option was introduced.
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I concur. I use wireless and sometimes the tower is overloaded so I max out around 300kbps or so. On a 24 man BAF or an 8 man ITF the server is pushing more than 300kbps to me (because my connection cant keep up and after about 20 seconds of falling behind it DCs me). So lets figure it out for a 24 man.... 7.2Mbps per BAF that the server has to push. Lets assume they have at peak 10 BAFs running at any one time per server thats 72Mbps that each server has to push out. Thats alot of data to be pushing out for a single server that also has to handle calculations and AI. If they have multiple servers in the same data center, they could be chewing up a significant amount of total available bandwidth for that center to the internet backbone.|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
I think the main cause behind it all is old and inefficient netcode. That, and the silly amount of data the server has to transfer between clients for not only the mundane stuff like player and npc positions, health stats, powers in use etc; but also costume data, power customisation data, buff data etc, etc. Loads and loads of stuff, lots of it which the old netcode the game was written with never had to handle.
I just don't think they ever updated it, and that's why we now have huge amounts of network lag whenever there's more than a single team on the go. It's still using the old dialup friendly netcode. |
Relative to WOW this game probably is pushing out almost 50% more data on average to each client. It may not be a big deal because the population of this game is/was low but those bandwidth costs do add up. Time to hire some network developers to look at the code and clean it up on the client and server, probably will save you money in the long run with reduced bandwidth costs and server loads.
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The lag is especially frustrating during the BAF when I'm on my Traps defender. I found that laying mines and poison trap along the paths is a good way to prevent the prisoners from running off too fast. However that plan goes out the window once the lag starts. It's truly a shame.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
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What about the final room of the LGTF? Not only is there tremendous lag there, but the scenery starts disappearing. Has that been fixed yet?
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The very short version: You're wrong. There's no nice way to put it. Sorry.|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Ticks do not take longer just because there's more to do. A tick is a tick and always takes the same about of time. However, having to send MORE packets than it used too (remember, the netcode is still 56k friendly, so the packetsize is unchanged, there are just more packets), will take more ticks to do the "same" thing.
The client handles the UI aspect of when powers are recharged, so that doesn't slow down at all, but as the server just hasn't sent you the recharged packet yet, you get the "ooom" when you fire it. |
Your initial assumption is wrong: ticks don't take the same amount of time. The short version is a graphics demo analogy: to achieve a framerate of 60 FPS in a demo, each frame must render in 1/60th of a second. When frames miss that window, the framerate drops -- it doesn't matter if half of them render in 1.5/60th and the others render in 0.0001/60th, you're still going to be going at well under 60 FPS (in particular: 40 FPS, or 2 frames rendered for every 3 shown).
Map that concept to the servers running ticks, realizing that the servers actually simulate time in tiny discrete chunks. (side note: the chunks simulated time length are directly related to arcanatime.)
Note also that buffs and debuffs don't drop when they should. In extreme instances of power lag you'll find that your average hasten buff is lasting well more than 2 minutes. That isn't a client error -- the server hasn't told the client it is gone since the server hasn't simulated anywhere near 2 minutes of game time. This alone tells you that the server is 'simulating' time and that its running 'a bit behind.'
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Example: I have a demofile of the final phase of an old-Hamidon raid that took 40 minutes in real-time. The demofile plays in 30 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Rhysem
Note also that buffs and debuffs don't drop when they should. In extreme instances of power lag you'll find that your average hasten buff is lasting well more than 2 minutes. That isn't a client error -- the server hasn't told the client it is gone since the server hasn't simulated anywhere near 2 minutes of game time. This alone tells you that the server is 'simulating' time and that its running 'a bit behind.'
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Guess what makes it worse? More AI (its vastly more computationally intensive than in-range checks for buffs unless your buff code is idiotic). Guess what the new "summon some praetorean poo pets" powers do? Yep, more AIs. 2 per player, in fact. 1/3rd to 1/4th your average mastermind (since some MM set pairings are > 6 pets).
I'd been watching ship raids on Lib during I19 and you can predict how bad the powers lag will be by how many MMs/multi-pet Controllers and Spiders there are. More pets = more lag.
I was kinda hoping there'd be an all-MM trial run on test, just to watch the agony. Preferably with the new pets unlocked too, so each MM is fielding 8+ minions.
Yeah the first week of BAF/i20 the lag wasn't bad really...but now...every time the escapee phase starts...bam, lag....power lag that is...not actual latency between you (me) and the server.
I, too, hope that this gets 'fixed' sooner rather than later.
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You know the kind I'm talking about. Moving NPCs start and stop, every power gets a pause at the end of its activation, powers say they're recharged when they're not, as if time slows down. It plagues nearly every big exciting thing you do in the game.
Before it was an annoyance, but now some of these timed trials are actually failing in part because of it. A BAF I was on failed at the prisoners phase because the prisoners' movement wasn't being slowed down by the lag, but our powers were. Another time, a Master of Lambda attempt failed because even though we had the right combination of powers to beat Marauder while enraged, the timer ran out because the lag slowed down activation and recharge but not the timer.
So in short, make it all better? Please?
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