"You are the Dev" Issue #1: Fix the Problem or the Perception?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

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Originally Posted by Comicsluvr View Post
I thought this is what Open beta was for?

I understand than things can sometimes be combined to work in ways other than intended. BAB's discovery that Hami Raiders were using Oil Slick as a target for Howling Twilight comes to mind. Poison Trap and Recipe IOs is another good one.

Anything as complex as this game (and yes, it may seem simple to play but balancing it is complex) HAS to be tested, re-tested and then checked again to look for problems. Some will slip through because we're all Human but if the biggest problems are caught then it comes down to tweaks.

This is why the Devs give out Freespecs when they tweak a Power. That tweak might anger a whole bunch of players who LIKED it the way is was but are unhappy now. But if they have to do a wholesale slash and burn on a Power then something should have been caught earlier. If a big problem is missed then the right thing to do is man up, apologize for the mistake, fix it and move on.

Communication has been mentioned in this thread and I think that's important too. I once read that the Devs were unhappy with the way Bases were being utilized by the players. My question is how did they THINK we were going to use them? What was their goal/mindset/vision when they created them and how is their actual use so different? Did any of this disparity show up during Test?

It should also be said that what many players THINK they want and what they ACTUALLY want are sometimes two different things. The playerbase might say 'X Power is underperforming please fix it' when what they really want is for the set that X Power occurs in to be better overall.

You can never please all of the people all of the time.
Agree with most of what you've said here, but remember, only a limited number of players do open beta, so to be more granular, 100,000 players>>> 2500* OB testers>>>10 devs.

And you can only test something for so long before it becomes a case of diminishing returns (no pun intended). At some point, you have to Let Fly, (as it were...) and hope things won't completely break the game. And if they do, you can roll it back, etc.

The devs also have to deal with players perceptions of things like feelings, fairness, fun, and balancing these considerations against each other... fixes often are delayed for these reasons.

* - I pulled this number from a dark and strange place. I wouldn't go to that place if I were you.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Diellan_ View Post
When it comes to looking at what players complain about versus truth, I'm regularly brought back to my experiences with Willpower in beta. Almost everybody was complaining that it was an underpowered set and that the forced downtime of One With The Shield made the set unplayable in high content
Willpower had One With The Shield during beta?

I never tested Shield Defense, but I do recall Willpower being overpowered during early beta, especially for Brutes. HPT's resistance was being buffed by damage buffs, including Fury...


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comicsluvr View Post
Communication has been mentioned in this thread and I think that's important too. I once read that the Devs were unhappy with the way Bases were being utilized by the players. My question is how did they THINK we were going to use them? What was their goal/mindset/vision when they created them and how is their actual use so different? Did any of this disparity show up during Test?
They probably intended for us to use them for raiding, when instead most players use them for convenience and a few players use them as a digital Lego set. And in this case, it wasn't game-breaking, so they made a change that effectively changed what bases are supposed to be used for.

And then there's AE. Let's not get into the farming issue here. Over 400k arcs have been published in the last two years. I doubt the devs anticipated anywhere near that volume. I also think they didn't anticipate how much of it, even discounting the farms, would be so obviously and eye-bleedingly bad. I'm not even talking "Twilight" bad, I'm talking "this is just a test to figure out how AE works" bad...with more spelling errors. If they had, Positron never would have made a comment along the lines of "but if you can't rate an arc you haven't completed how can you rate something that is so bad it's uncompleteable?" because as it stands, you don't have to. That bad arc will sit at 0 rates along with tens of thousands of others, where very very few people will ever see it.


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Posted

Pfft.

Just implement a new currency. That'll solve everything.

And if one doesn't do the trick, make more. You can never have too many, you know.


Statesmonkey Sez: Lighten up! It's a game, for Lincoln's sake!
Also: Six years of casual play begins to look an awful lot like one year of hardcore play.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Diellan_ View Post
I seem to also remember a lot of back and forth over Taunt back in the day, too, though that was a "Castle think Taunt works one way because the documentation said so, but it didn't actually work that way" and once player complaints continued enough he looked at it and it got "resolved". That was also a long time ago.

When it comes to looking at what players complain about versus truth, I'm regularly brought back to my experiences with Willpower in beta. Almost everybody was complaining that it was an underpowered set and that the forced downtime of One With The Shield made the set unplayable in high content, and so the Devs actually buffed it when what it needed was a slight nerfing to put it in line with the other sets (thankfully, part of that buff was one of those "not actually useful distractions" of adding Resist(Regeneration) to Fast Healing). I remember writing up a comparison of the set to the other ones (using Catwhoorg's DRR and one of ArcanaVille's survivability posts as guides) but it didn't matter, the majority of the player base said it was too weak. Yeah, I don't know what was up with that...

It's one of the things that has made me incredibly skeptical of player murmurings about balance without any kind of data to back it up.
I also strongly stated my opinion that Willpower was far more powerful than virtually anyone was giving credit for. I was actually amazed it was buffed on release. I blame Starsman, although that's another story.


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Posted

Patch notes for build 0.8493846756383.

Launcher

  • The gremlin that popped up when logging in has been vanquished. No more annoying 'You can't do that' over your speakers.

Map Update
  • Closed the Map Hole in the Bazaar. Feel free to shop without the fear of dropping into Zul-Magoria. A hell dimension is nice when you're grouped and going after the scepter, but really sucks when you're trying to sell your junk.

Spell Abilities and Combinations
  • Datamining has showed that Shepard's Crook melee combination is 20% overpowered. This has been brought back into an acceptable level of damage when compared to a +5 Holy Longsword of Smiting. Fists aren't supposed to do that.
  • Canon of Justice Update: Reviewing the numbers has proved that a lot of you are basically whining over the fact that you like the pretty spell ability. Matching effect styles for their peers in other spell trees will be updated and made more flashy. Stop bugging us. You'll get your flashy after the Zombie update next month.
  • Meekling Power Update: Some crafters have made us aware of a huge problem with the Meekling Crocheting Thumb Boost. It's not been giving a proper success rate when creating items such as the Cunning Knit Cap of Marksmanship. We've re-tweaked this, and the percentages should match Crosseyed Sewing and Numb Fingers. Let us know.


 

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
I'd increase the art staff to animate the problems away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casual_Player View Post
Pfft.

Just implement a new currency. That'll solve everything.

And if one doesn't do the trick, make more. You can never have too many, you know.

This is how it works, is it not?

What you really mean to say, Marcian (PLEASE forgive my presumption, as it is theoretical) is "Please Hammer (players) don't hurt 'em (Devs) while I'm gone."(?)


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Aquila_NA View Post
This is how it works, is it not?

What you really mean to say, Marcian (PLEASE forgive my presumption, as it is theoretical) is "Please Hammer (players) don't hurt 'em (Devs) while I'm gone."(?)
More or less this.


 

Posted

On the note of fixing the perception... When ARE we going to fix perception for already-engaged enemies so ambushes don't ignore Stalker stealth?

I'm mostly serious


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

What fools these mortals be, make 10 new costume pieces and announce a PvP dev.

The new PvP dev doesn't actually DO anything - they just get a title.


 

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<QR>
1. Announce that all three powers are being looked at by the powers team.
2. Put entire team to work on fixing Crook
3. Next month put entire team to work on fixing Meekling.
4. Release patch on test with Notes indicating all three have been fixed but we need the players to really test the heck out of them.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
On the note of fixing the perception... When ARE we going to fix perception for already-engaged enemies so ambushes don't ignore Stalker stealth?

I'm mostly serious
I have a partial solution to the problem, but I honestly haven't had an opportunity to discuss it with the devs. I was thinking about it when thinking about how to fix negative stealth. Which I think I might know how to do also.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay View Post
Your "Powers" team is comprised of four people. When all four work together, they can, with an 80% success rate, perfectly balance a power or power set once per patch. You patch once a month.
Semi-cynical response: How much does the success rate go up if we assign fewer of them to balance something? (My limited experience is that at least the later-stage fiddly number balancing sort of thing is in fact best done by a single person, as seemingly orthogonal changes usually aren't as independent as you thought.)

Week #1: Senior dev / producer / etc. monthly letter to community; summarize last month's patch as usual, and then talk about upcoming changes in general terms. Have a paragraph that says something along the lines of "We routinely datamine performance at several levels, as we'd prefer to catch problems before they become obvious to players. No solely numbers-driven review is perfect, however, and our Community Team has been paying attention to some of the recent forum discussions. This month, we're focusing developer attention on several balance issues, both entire sets and specific moves that have come to our attention. This is a good time to remind everyone, however, that due to the diversity of powers and situations in CoH, there will always be some cases where certain builds will outperform others to some degree. Our goal is to keep that degree down to a reasonable level while providing enough real choices to keep the game interesting. We ask that you help us out by providing our Community Team with clear, specific examples in the stickied threads they will be starting on certain specific issues this week; and hope to see you on the Training Zone later this month to give us some good data on the improvements. As usual, the live publish will include a freespec."

W1 Assignments: Devs A, B, & C brainstorm and rapid-prototype ideas for fixing #1, Shepherd's Crook. Dev D work with Community Team lead to set up and monitor designated threads to discuss #2 (CoJ), #3 (Meekling), and a couple of other balance projects high on the to-do list; specifically including dev posts in the threads to focus attention. Someone on CT assigned to work with Devs ABC on research, including searching forum and off-forum HG boards for signs of #1 exploit knowledge spreading.

Week 2: Meeting 1 (early in week), figure out which plan for fixing #1 gives the best combination of balance results while preserving both original intention and powerset feel for those who have taken it. Assign whichever dev came up with the best plan (we'll assume it was A) to flesh it out full time.

Meeting 2a (also early in week), pull together the forum posts and additional datamining to try and figure out *why* the players think #2 (CoJ) is imbalanced. Even if the powers are numerically correct, there is likely to be something at the root of the perception; the power's looks, sounds, situational issues, popular enemies / maps / farms, incorrect documentation, or something.

Assignments: Dev A full time on plan for #1 rebalance. Dev B,C, 0.5D on clever ideas for #2 fixes; may involve other teams if the issue really turns out to be about animation times or some such. D spends some time also checking over Arcanaberg's and remaining community suggestions for fixing #3, focusing on possible numerical fixes that don't require new tech or other resources.

Meeting 2b (late in week): Bring together folks to pick an option for handling #2, assign someone involved with the best idea to deal with it (we'll assume B). Check to see if folks are generally OK with the concept of changes for #3.

Week 3: A working full time on #1, B working full time on #2, D now full time on #3, although hopefully this will be mostly regression testing as the actual changes are quick. C works on New Stuff until late in the week. Test builds internally by mid-week. By the end of the week, A, B, and D are expected to be able to (independently) explain in a few minutes to C what their change *actually* does, and what it *looks* like it does, to someone who knows the powers system well but hasn't been looking at those parts of it all week. Dev D sends NDA'd PM to Arcanaberg and possibly selected other folks who made good suggestions on #3, outlining proposed changes. By end of week, closed beta build goes up so select players can bash on it over weekend; beta channel instructions are explicit that folks should focus on changes to #1, #2, and #3 (and possibly any minor New Stuff that worked its way into the build). If there's a competent and separate QA group, they start their checks.

Week 4: Monday is evaluate closed beta data, final dev checking, and then publish for open beta Tuesday morning unless some parts are simply unworkable. Senior dev post on main boards discussing the opportunity to test out changes to #1, #2, and #3, and focusing . CT brought in again to focus sifting the firehose on forums and training zone channels. A, B, and D responsible for showing up at least once to an announced event on the training zone to interact with players about their temporary focus area directly. Encourage Arcanaberg via PM to work on a detailed post explaining how #2 is "now" balanced compared to similar powers.

Late Thursday, big meeting to decide if things are working, or if *minor* tweaks are both necessary and possible; decision made as to which changes go into Release Candidate build Friday morning. (Hopefully, no changes from the Tuesday AM build, or minor typo stuff.) Check to see if Live servers having any significant problems from people figuring out #1, which may influence how desperate it is to get that into this month's patch.

RC runs Friday - Monday, and unless absolutely disastrous last-minute issues will go live Tuesday morning. Senior person writes monthly letter talking about balance changes, starting off with #2 and mentioning something about "wanting to make the minimum changes necessary to bring the power into line with similar powers" etc. Describe #3 in terms of "We understand that folks have been unhappy with this for a while, but resources are limited", praise the community for being rational and involved. Be honest on #1, "Previous changes did not have the desired effect, and we have had to adjust SC to prevent it from becoming a problem. We have gone to a fair amount of effort to preserve the feel and flow of the set, and welcome detailed feedback on how SC performs on the Live servers." Consider sending Arcanaberg cookies.

This all assumes that the problems are both urgent enough to try solving in a month's timeframe, and tractable enough that it can actually be done. If #1 blows up badly, it might be necessary to pull everyone onto that and push a hotfix; make sure it is announced as a temporary measure that will be refined as soon as possible.

A somewhat more pessimistic take would be to assign 3 devs to #1 in hopes of getting something usable before it blows up on live, and the remaining dev to figure out a smokescreen change to #2 and to make a concerned but apologetic post on the #3 forum topic explaining that they acknowledge the player concerns, would like to fix the problems, but simply don't have the resources to do it right now.

A somewhat saner take would stretch the process out over two months, with the first 2 weeks working on a crash priority quick fix for #1 that can be hotfixed in case it blows up on Live, then a more rational change process with at least a full week in QA+closed beta and a full week of Open, possibly two.

I'd regard the detailed schedule as an "OMG, things are coming apart" plan, we get only a few person-days of dev work on new stuff out of the whole month, which is unlikely to be practical very often. It's got an OK chance of working if "simple" numerical changes can have the desired results, but as the complexity and/or weirdness of the changes needed goes up, the likelihood of success in this sort of timeframe plummets. With really good devs, you can hope that the fix takes much less time and gives you more time to regression test, but you can't count on that. The more I reread this, the more it sounds like a "hotfix" process rather than a "patch" process, despite having a month turnaround; and the lead dev and CT need to be on top of whether they need to pull the red handle and put everything onto a #1 hotfix even faster.


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