Issue 6 Lies, Issue 20 Frustrations, and TIMING

Who remembers the Issue 6? Way back in October of 'ought 5. It came with some massive changes to the game (Villains, Red Zones, PVP zones, Enhancement Diversification). Some people were happy, but some were very unhappy. I'm certain there are a few of you who still feel quiet rage over ED.

My own personal pet peeve with Issue 6 was that it came with a slew of new costume pieces that were only available to villains, even if you had both City of Heroes and City of Villains. I complained about this on the board, and I very clearly remember the response a certain Mr. Emmert gave. I don't happen to have the post saved, but it went something like:

'We had no idea that heroic players would want these costume pieces.'

It was the first time I realized that this individual was willing to say things that weren't in the best interest of his customers. He's gone on to solidify a certain reputation.

However, he and others promised that they were looking at the situation and would implement a fix, if possible, SOON(TM).

*cough* *cough*

Issue 7, which contained a fix for the costume issue was released SEVEN MONTHS later.

(There was however, a rumor circulated a bit before of a certain command switch that one could activate that would allow heroes to wear the 'villainous' costumes. It came with dire warnings.)

Issue 7 did not, noticeably, contain much content for heroes. Heroes would have to wait until Issue 8 to get any kind of new PVE content. Issue 8 was released in November 2006, more than a year after Issue 6.

The delays involved were frustrating, to say the least. Afterwards, things changed, mostly for the better.

So here we are in 2011, four or five years later. Issue 20 was WEIGHTY in the amount of new systems that came with it. There's been a five month gap since issue 19. As expected of any major release or mechanic changes, a lot of players are upset about many different things.

Given the duration of issue 20's extended beta, most of these concerns have been stated before, so a statement of 'we didn't know you guys wanted X' isn't going to be really very believable.


Players know that NCSoft has limited resources and time. We understand that unforeseens pop up and that schedules slip. I think most everyone understands that nothing is written in stone. After all, many of us are still here after Issue 6.

That being said, I think it's fair to ask the following questions:


What is the current timing for Issue 21? Should we expect another five or six month delay?

Will there be an issue 20.5, similar to Issue 19's staggered release of Alpha abilities with 'Issue 19.5'?

What kind of changes, if any, are being planned to the way that solo or single-team players progress through the Incarnate system?

If any changes in this direction are planned, what's the timeline for them?

Right now, does the CoH development and management plan to focus on multi-group 'Raid-centric' content in the future?

No new 'free' costume pieces or patterns were released with issue 20, probably due to the sheer bulk of the new systems going in. Can we expect any new pieces or patterns in the near future?

Other than the Vanguard Pack, is there a paid Super Booster planned any time for the near future?

Please be honest with us, even if the answers are unpleasant, like, 'We don't have time to x and y at the same time and right now we're focusing on x'. Please be honest with us about timing, even if that timing may slip.

What? What does the first half of your post have to do with the second half?

The impression I get is "Remember when issue 6 came out, and Jack Emmert made a gaffe, and then it took 7 months for issue 7 to come out?

"Well, with that in mind, please tell me everything that's being worked on now and when it will go live."

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think what you're asking is: Will Issue 21 have anything new for the solo player or will be another issue dedicated to team trials and incarnates?

I'm sure its way too early to start sharing details about Issue 21 but I think it'll have a lot more of the QoL fixes and new costume options you're looking for (and the Devs have been hinting at) plus maybe some base love at long last. An issue like that would probably give them the time they need to get the next phase of Incarnate content out (ie Issue 22).

Anyhew that's my take on it. Truth be told, the Devs have been excruciatingly quiet of late - but I'm sure there's a very good reason for that. I can't believe I'm telling you this but "hang in there as best you can." Something good is coming - you just have to give the Devs time to get their official script together.

Being a vet player, you should know better than to ask for timelines from the Devs about anything, even if they're nebulous. You should also know that it's not the Devs that don't tell us things, it's Marketing.

Stuff comes when it comes, and not before.

The tone of your post would suggest that there is no correct answer for you that won't validate what you already believe to be true.

Asking "when can we expect X, Y, or Z" questions is definitely NOT fair. If they remotely replied with some sort of half answer, people would claim they were promised things that were never promised, they'd be filling the forums with Doom threads and trying to rally the villagers to riot in the streets over things that are only speculation from players, and taking comments from red names WAY out of context and putting their own slanted spin on everything.

You've been here on the boards since 05 and somehow think you'd get even nebulous answers to any of that? *Especially* in light of the situation in the beginning of your post?

I think the server stability problems will be fixed long before I21 comes out.

I am very happy with i20, but I would prefer for the next issue not to advance the incarnate system except in giving us solo and team-sized options for unlocking said content without significant penalties (and additional 8+ raids if possible). Additionally, mid level content, powersets/proliferation, plus more power customization.

Really, I would be happy for the next several issues to be along this line. I have plenty of work ahead of me, and I am happy to put the time in, but I want to feel like i can take a step back and play my non 50s without feeling like my mains are getting left behind.

I expect we will get an announcement around the anniversary, detailing the direction of development over the coming months. That said, it would be reassuring for the devs to pop in and say that solo and small team incarnate advancement is on the way. If it isn't coming in the near future, the devs should seriously reconsider this. I don't care if incarnate content is supposed to be reserved for the big story, players should have reasonable access to the system (much more reasonable than the current implementation, even for the alpha slot) regardless of their level 50+ playstyle.

Mid level Red side content needs to be add. Ughh there is gut of blue side mid level content but not enough post 40+ non incarnate content on both sides. More of this please. Ughh any more lvl 20 to 30 stuff, I'm going to scream.

The point of bringing up the 'Statesman made a gaffe during i6' problems and then following it with the comments about i20 were specifically to draw a comparison between the two situations.

With issue 6 and issue 20 we have a very similar, at least to my mind, chain of events.

- Major changes are being made to the game
- Players are commenting on those changes, both positively and negatively, and bringing up very important questions.
- Delays between issues are starting to grow larger
- The development team has been unusually silent
- Questions about upcoming changes aren't being handled in a terribly transparent fashion, specifically as they pertain to power balance and team/solo balance and game features.

The big difference between the two situations so far is no one is or has made statements that are at a wild difference from reality. I say that because I desperately don't want to see it happen again.

It believe that it's fair, if not realistic, to ask for honest answers to questions with the 'I've been lied to before' addendum. I think that calling someone a liar is one of the harshest things you can say about an individual. I don't think that our current dev or marketing teams have earned that by any means, but the parallels make me worry that history is about to repeat.

I also believe that it's fair to ask seriously about the future of the game. If you subscribed to a cat magazine that suddenly started running dog articles, it's fair to want to know if they were going to continue running cats at all or start becoming dog-centric.

This has been something that Cryptic and NCSoft have never been very good about. Parts of the game get implemented and then neglected for a very long time. Occasionally there's a push for them, but the teams have never been very clear about how much effort they're going to expend on a development direction. It took a LONG time for the admittance that City Vault wasn't going to happen. It was only very recently that we heard confirmation that the Gladiator system was more or less dead.

That kind of quiet is a disservice to the players.

I think it's going a bit far to blatantly call Emmert a liar.

I was thinking something similar...
After GR we knew what was coming. QoL, more tips, Alpha slot.
After I19 we knew what was coming. More Incarnate powers and trials.
After I20 I need to know what is about to come!
Yeah, I know more Incarnate powers (2? 4?) and trials.
I hope they throw something for casual people not interested in end game that can also please most of player base. New free costumes, 1 arc or TF for lvls 30-40, proliferation or maybe Pools/PPP/APP/HEATs/VEATs customization, to finish what they started with I16.
I hope this month we can have news about new shinies on the work.

You're not really trying to say the reaction to the Trials is the same as the reaction to ED, are you?

My completely worthless predictions:

1) i21 will hit in either the first half of September or (more likely, in my view) early December. Based on years of experience, these are the times new issues are most likely to hit. It must have something to do with how the development cycle works, but I don't pretend to understand it.

2) i21 will have the same sorts of things that i20 contained- 2-4 new endgame slots unlocked, a couple of new endgame currencies, and 2 endgame trials. I think the trials have even been described already, though I don't recall the details.

3) i21 will contain either a new co-op task force or a task force and a strike force. If the devs take the second option, there's an even chance of the task force being completely new or a revision of an i0 task force.

4) Yes, it will be all about Praetoria/the Well. Expect all new story content to revolve around these two related storylines for at least another 24 months or until a Coming Storm/server shutdown event hits, whichever comes first.

Why do I make these predictions in this thread? Because you're unlikely to hear anything from the devs, so the most we can do is make educated (or even uneducated) guesses. Aside from all the points others have made, i21 is probably far enough along in development that no substantive changes will be made, but even with that caveat, the devs can't be absolutely sure what the issue will look like until fairly shortly before release. (And if development doesn't know, marketing doesn't, either.)

I'm not seeing it. ED had a dramatic impact on the effectiveness enhancements. It meant that every single character was less powerful across the board. That was a big change. I20... made the minimum width of the chat window slightly wider. That's the only change I've seen so far. I understand that I could have the word "Helper" or "Helpless" floating over my head, but I haven't bothered. I could see a new team UI, but I declined. I know there are some new missions available, but I haven't tried them yet. I haven't seen any difference in the game at all since I20. I guess there's been some downtime, but I missed that as well.

And I don't think "We didn't realize the heroic players would want the villainous costume parts" can be construed as the most evil and despicable lie ever spoken on these forums. It actually sounds kind of true, if a bit disappointing. And, as you said, the costume parts did show up heroside in the next issue. Was I7 on the late side? I don't remember. Sometimes issues come close together, sometimes they get spread apart more. /shrug.

Issue 6 saw a large decline of subscribers. I don't think that will happen with Issue 20, but it will be interesting to watch for.

Which issue 6? The one that brought in hundreds of new players with the brand new expansion? That one? That's the one you think caused a dip in subscriptions?

Maybe the decline was in an upwards direction?

I20 launched on the 5th. It's been a little over a week. Delays between issues happen. 7 years with this game, and my love/hate relationship with that Other game, has taught me this.

People need to understand that not every release is going to have something YOU want. And it just may have things in it that you don't like.

I didn't call Emmert a liar on the costume thing, it just made me feel that he was more of an idiot than I thought. ED made me rage, still does every time I play my oldest character. His defense of certain changes made me party when I found out he was no longer going to be part of CoH.

Now this next part, people aren't going to like. Most likely people are going to be mad at me for saying it, but it needs to be said, and I am used to people being mad at me.

The Devs don't have to talk to you. The Devs don't have to tell you anything. The Devs don't have to get your approval.

It's their game. It's their job. The only say in any matter about the game that you have, is your $15 a month. Now, some people think that this gives them some kind of right to say what should be in the game. It doesn't.

Now I have said it before, and I say it again. Our Devs ROCK! They have come to the boards. They have been open about things in the game. They have done the PAX thing, and the webcasts. So they have a history of communicating with the player base. Why they are quiet now? Maybe they are busy. I trust them to keep doing their jobs, and keep bring awesome things to the game I love.

Actually wasn't the dip from Issue 6 and ED merely matched by the addition of new subscribers bought in by City of Villains IIRC?

There may have been a little net gain but if they'd done ED without Expanshalone (stupid name and stupid idea as well, should have made it an Expansion, WoW style) then it could have been a very serious problem.