Jayboh, could you include the suggestion that weaken become stackable in the original post?
I wouldn't mind if the -special remain unstackable, but the -dam, -tohit? The set is supposed to be protecting through debuffs, but its main mitigational debuff limited to one application. I would change this, as it would add the protection poison brings in a prolonged fight.
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I am with the shyster on this, esp since weaken is NOT AoE at present.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
Jayboh, could you include the suggestion that weaken become stackable in the original post?
I wouldn't mind if the -special remain unstackable, but the -dam, -tohit? The set is supposed to be protecting through debuffs, but its main mitigational debuff limited to one application. I would change this, as it would add the protection poison brings in a prolonged fight. |
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Done. No problem! Any of you PM Black Scorpion about this thread? I have, twice.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
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I shouldn't be surprised when I read these posts, but I am. Poison is very good at what the set is supposed to do (neuter hard targets), even if that isn't conducive to farming at x8.
Individually:
Alkaloid: Dromio mentioned this compares favorably to O2 Boost. It costs more, but activates faster. Thing is, you can enhance for end redux, but not for activation time. Alkaloid isn't the best, but it's good enough.
Envenom: This power is amazing. It does what Dark needs Twilight Grasp and Tar Patch to do, but it also debuffs defense. Out of the box you can keep it on two bosses at the same time. Its end cost is high, but it's a great debuff, and lasts half a minute. Fine by me.
Weaken: Seriously? Unenhanced this drops the tohit on a target by 85%! That's more than all the Dark powers combined, including the extras that the Dark Servant throws. As an added bonus, it reduces damage. You can't keep it on multiple foes until you reduce its recharge, but this power is very good at what it does.
Neurotoxic Breath: This is a good slow. Slows are pretty lame except for the rare times you're trying to keep stuff from running away. It's good at what it does, but what it does is generally lame. It might be worthwhile to up the hold duration since the recharge on this is so long, but I'm not sure that would offer any substantial value.
Elixir of Life: This is almost a clone of Mutation, and very close to Conduit of Pain. I can't see a reason to change it.
Antidote: A Clear Mind clone that works a lot like Enforced Morale, but where Enforced Morale gets that awesome recharge bonus, this only gives some resistance to toxic and cold. No changes necessary.
Paralytic Poison: This is a clone of Petrifying Gaze. Well, Paralytic Poison takes a third of a second longer to activate, but besides that they're identical. It's a subpar hold, but I can't see why you'd buff one and not the other.
Poison Trap: This power is... uh... this power is junk. Seriously, a trap power that drains some endurance and sleeps? The hold is terribly unreliable. This power could use something - anything! - to improve it. I'd like to see -resistance, slow, and/or damage over time from it, though then the power still suffers from being a trap. Perhaps even a fear, stun or confuse component.
Noxious Gas: The tier 9 is rather lackluster. I can see how it's supposed to work, but the general unpredictability of pets combined with the fact that there are so few tier 3 melee pets makes it come up short. Perhaps it would do better if it affected all your pets, or if the recharge was short enough to use it on several pets concurrently. I'm sure I've used it on Grave Knights in the past, and I'm sure I don't recall it being terribly effective.I actually quite enjoy this set, despite the fact that the last two powers are next to useless. Those would benefit from some scrutiny, but the rest of the set is fine as is.
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Sure, it's very good at what it does. The problem is all the other debuff sets are just as good, and AoE to boot. The only time Poison has the advantage is when there's a single enemy. And that's just a moderate endurance advantage, which isn't worth the loss of being competitive when 99.99% of the game is against more than one enemy.|
Originally Posted by Thunderheart
I shouldn't be surprised when I read these posts, but I am. Poison is very good at what the set is supposed to do (neuter hard targets), even if that isn't conducive to farming at x8.
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Originally Posted by Thunderheart
Alkaloid: Dromio mentioned this compares favorably to O2 Boost. It costs more, but activates faster. Thing is, you can enhance for end redux, but not for activation time. Alkaloid isn't the best, but it's good enough. |
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Originally Posted by Thunderheart
Envenom: This power is amazing. It does what Dark needs Twilight Grasp and Tar Patch to do, but it also debuffs defense. Out of the box you can keep it on two bosses at the same time. Its end cost is high, but it's a great debuff, and lasts half a minute. Fine by me. |
Then you add in all the other sets. Because there are more sets than just dark. Storm has freezing rain, which is the same ammount of debuff in AoE form. And because we're talking hard targets, it's worth noting that it's perma-able. Then you transition to the rest of the game, and it hits ALL the enemies in the patch not just one at a time.
Thermal has melt armor. It's a bit less debuff, a few percentage points, but It's AoE and again quite perma-able. The fact it's in a Buff/debuff set not a primary debuff set makes it a bit more understandable as well.
Traps, oh god traps. MMMM traps.
And trick arrow. While it will lose on endurance a bit further out than other sets, it's still capable of putting out more debuff than poison in AoE.
Poison loses all around. It doesn't have to though, and that's the point of the thread.
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Originally Posted by Thunderheart
Weaken: Seriously? Unenhanced this drops the tohit on a target by 85%! That's more than all the Dark powers combined, including the extras that the Dark Servant throws. As an added bonus, it reduces damage. You can't keep it on multiple foes until you reduce its recharge, but this power is very good at what it does. |
Because that would be accurate. This power does, for more endurance, the exact same ammount of damage and tohit debuff as darkest night. It also has a -special debuff, but I don't think that makes up for the fact that it cost more endurance to keep on three enemies than dark's power cost to affect 16. And Weaken takes hella longer to do it.
Also, no, no, no. It does not do 85% tohit debuff.
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Originally Posted by Thunderheart
I actually quite enjoy this set, despite the fact that the last two powers are next to useless. Those would benefit from some scrutiny, but the rest of the set is fine as is.
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Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
William Valence, you don't give O2 boost enough credit. It also has endurance drain protection, breaks stuns (aka wakies, too) and sleeps. It has really good range for a single target buff, +perception is a good thing, not a cost.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
As a general rule, tweaking individual powers is a bad idea when there are broader imbalances to address. Better to step back and deal with the big picture first.
For instance, the sudden appearance of non-stacking, non-autohit, single-target debuffs that started appearing after PvP was introduced. The idea doesn't work for Weaken and Envenom; it doesn't work for Sonic Siphon or Infrigidate, either. These powers all have recharge time constraints, and should therefore all stack. Stacking doesn't make Siphon Power or blast debuffs overpowering (or even particularly popular), not in PvE, not in PvP either -- any PvP balance fears about stacking debuffs are unfounded.
For another instance, powers that have the same name but, confusingly, do different things because one version of the power had to be nerfed for whatever reason. The fears leading to these nerfs never pan out -- if it's balanced for one AT, it's balanced for everyone else, see Psi Blast for blasters. Poison Trap doesn't make Traps overpowering (well, at least not more overpowering than other high performing buff/debuff sets), and it'll be fine for Poison too.
In sum, there's a more systemic problem in buff/debuff power design, a problem likely arising from unfounded PvP balance fears. Fix this problem system-wide, and this may just fix Poison without having to fine-tune or change powers.
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Sorry, didn't translate will in written form. I wasn't using "cost" as a negative. I was using it as a term to describe this->that. I do like O2 boost, and if I had my way, Alkaloid would be even more similar to it with it's own perception boost and some KB protection. I was just trying to explain that O2 boost "pays", "cost", whatever for the Perception/mez/enddrain with a lesser heal and a not to trivial endurance cost. Alkaloid pays the exact same price, and all it gets is a small amount of toxic resist that, in my opinion, should be moved to Antidote.|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
William Valence, you don't give O2 boost enough credit. It also has endurance drain protection, breaks stuns (aka wakies, too) and sleeps. It has really good range for a single target buff, +perception is a good thing, not a cost.
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
As a general rule, tweaking individual powers is a bad idea when there are broader imbalances to address. Better to step back and deal with the big picture first.
For instance, the sudden appearance of non-stacking, non-autohit, single-target debuffs that started appearing after PvP was introduced. The idea doesn't work for Weaken and Envenom; it doesn't work for Sonic Siphon or Infrigidate, either. These powers all have recharge time constraints, and should therefore all stack. Stacking doesn't make Siphon Power or blast debuffs overpowering (or even particularly popular), not in PvE, not in PvP either -- any PvP balance fears about stacking debuffs are unfounded. |
Siphon power is a 20% debuff and I'd say it's less poplular, not because of any weakness on it's part, but instead because it's a part of the set that has Fulcrum shift. Sort of like how Armor powers are thrown to the wayside in Stone the moment people get Granite.
Blast debuffs? They're about a third of the magnitude and 1/5th the duration.
But do you really believe that it would not be devestatingly broken to allow benumb to stack?
The Repeat Offenders are proof of whats doable with stacking debuffs. It's not systemic. Sonic Siphon isn't as powerful as other ST debuffs, that's true. But allowing the player to stack it 3-4 times? My Ill/son would love that, but that would be terribly broken.
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
For another instance, powers that have the same name but, confusingly, do different things because one version of the power had to be nerfed for whatever reason. The fears leading to these nerfs never pan out -- if it's balanced for one AT, it's balanced for everyone else, see Psi Blast for blasters. Poison Trap doesn't make Traps overpowering (well, at least not more overpowering than other high performing buff/debuff sets), and it'll be fine for Poison too.
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Along the same vein. When will I be able to make a Thugs/Kin? Bots/Rad? what about a /Cold MM? If their balanced for one AT, then it should be A-Ok right?
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
In sum, there's a more systemic problem in buff/debuff power design, a problem likely arising from unfounded PvP balance fears. Fix this problem system-wide, and this may just fix Poison without having to fine-tune or change powers.
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Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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I agree to some extent, that some estimates of the set are a bit harsh, and that the set certainly does have its strengths. I enjoy the idea that a poisoner has a very focused use of debuffs, rather than the more traditional "Turn them ALL to putty!" role. It means you have to be more strategic. That said, my suggestions for /poison base around they way it is NOT the clear winner against a single target. As has been brought up, the stackability of other sets' debuffs/mitigations and similar values on poison's single target powers do make it so that what a poisoner is does not stand out, especially in larger encounters, such as vs. an AV. This is exacerbated by the fact that additional layers of the timed debuffs does nothing, yet an AV resists all the effects by up to 87%.|
Originally Posted by Thunderheart
I shouldn't be surprised when I read these posts, but I am. Poison is very good at what the set is supposed to do (neuter hard targets), even if that isn't conducive to farming at x8....I actually quite enjoy this set, despite the fact that the last two powers are next to useless. Those would benefit from some scrutiny, but the rest of the set is fine as is...
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This means, without noxious gas present here's what a poisoner can do to a level 50 AV:
-3.9% res
-4.68% def (max slotted for debuff)
-2.36% tohit (max slotted for debuff)
-8.45% rech
-16.9% speed (max slotted for debuff)
-22.5% damage
-65% regen, every 6 seconds. (SO max slotting, 30 second duration, leading to a -325%, best case on SO's)
Note: every single power that does the above can miss.
Here's kinetics:
-65% regen, every 4 seconds. (max SO slotting, 20 second duration, leading to a -325% regen, best case on SO's and not including +recharge from siphon speed.)
-20% dam, every 10 seconds. (max SO slotting, 30 second duration, leading to -60% damage, best case on SO-s and not including +recharge from siphon speed.)
-40% dam, every 30 seconds. (max SO slotting, 45 second duration, leading to -40 to -80% damage, best case on SO-s and not including +recharge from siphon speed.)
-20% rech
-100% speed (max slotted for debuff)
Here's dark miasma:
-65% regen, every 4 seconds. (max SO slotting, 20 second duration, leading to a -325% regen, best case on SO's)
-7.5% dam, every 4 seconds. (max SO slotting, 20 second duration, leading to -37.5% damage, best case on SO's)
-22.5% dam, toggle
-2.34% tohit, toggle (max slotted for debuff)
-3.9% res, every 45 seconds. (45 second duration, best case on SO's)
-65% regen, every 90 seconds. (max SO slotting, 30 second duration, best case on SO's)
-6.5% rech, every 90 seconds. (max SO slotting, 30 second duration, best case on SO's)
-13% speed, every 90 seconds. (max SO slotting, 30 second duration, best case on SO's)
Dark servant:
-65% regen, every 10 seconds. (20 second duration)
-10% damage, every 10 seconds. (20 second duration)
-2.34% tohit, toggle (max slotted for debuff)
-30% dam, toggle
-3.12% tohit, toggle (max slotted for debuff)
Poison is a jack of all trades debuff set that would compare favorably with others if it were AoE. It is single target. I prefer single target. But if it is comparable, even outdone in some ways, by other sets that are also AoE I'd say it might need a look.
NOTE: numbers taken from red tomax, assuming the level 50 87% resistance of av's, and taking into account that AV's do not resist -damage or siphon speed.
Poison is going to be Proliferated. I'm trying to ask about MM Poison in the UStream chat but the chat isn't working right for me.
Update: I got through and Synapse said that Poison for MM's has been updated in beta, but he didn't specify what has been changed! It's beta, so it's subject to change, but it sounds like there might be changes out there for us!
Wooo!
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<--Is happy.
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Originally Posted by Dromio
Poison is going to be Proliferated. I'm trying to ask about MM Poison in the UStream chat but the chat isn't working right for me.
Update: I got through and Synapse said that Poison for MM's has been updated in beta, but he didn't specify what has been changed! It's beta, so it's subject to change, but it sounds like there might be changes out there for us! Wooo! |
Uh...Wow
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
From what I heard: The heal is going to be stronger, the two single target debuffs get AoE (with half effect to any secondary targets), Poison trap does hold to start instead of sleep (not sure on that bit) and has another debuff (-recovery, maybe?)
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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I was silly and didn't check the thread until now - just a minute ago I addressed this thread with Synapse, stating I've PMed Black Scorpion a couple of times with no response.|
Originally Posted by Dromio
Poison is going to be Proliferated. I'm trying to ask about MM Poison in the UStream chat but the chat isn't working right for me.
Update: I got through and Synapse said that Poison for MM's has been updated in beta, but he didn't specify what has been changed! It's beta, so it's subject to change, but it sounds like there might be changes out there for us! Wooo! |
This is great news and I hope... HOPE that they address the issues at least in part. Guess we just need to wait until beta invites hit.
IF YOU GET INTO THE BETA please, please take some time to review what they have done and make it a point to address issues within the official thread they usually make. Now is the time to get this garbage set taken care of once and for all!!!
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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Was this on the stream? Hell this would pretty much fix everything. I could easily live with this if it is true.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
From what I heard: The heal is going to be stronger, the two single target debuffs get AoE (with half effect to any secondary targets), Poison trap does hold to start instead of sleep (not sure on that bit) and has another debuff (-recovery, maybe?)
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
The Ustream changes are as follows-
Envenom and Weaken get small aoe affects equal to 1/2 the debuff on the original target.
Akaloid has been buffed.
Poison Traps initial Sleep Component has been swapped for a hold.
Noxious Gas has been replaced with Venomous Gas- a PBAoE toggle that significantly weakens foes around the user.
"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat
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Yes, sorry, that was from the Stream. But Benchpressers list is more accurate (with power names and everything!)
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Was this on the stream? Hell this would pretty much fix everything. I could easily live with this if it is true.
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Always remember, we were Heroes.
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I think this is just the Controller and Corruptor versions. Guess we'll see. Also, they really need to rename Poison Trap, even if it's just something as simple as "Noxious Trap".
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Originally Posted by Benchpresser
Noxious Gas has been replaced with Venomous Gas- a PBAoE toggle that significantly weakens foes around the user.
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Dammit you are right... they BETTER do something to Buff the MM T9.. at least lengthen the effect
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
I think this is just the Controller and Corruptor versions. Guess we'll see. Also, they really need to rename Poison Trap, even if it's just something as simple as "Noxious Trap".
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"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
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Poison for Controllers and Corruptors This set has been requested for proliferation for a great while and we thought now would be a great time to release it. This set is very much like the Mastermind version, however Noxious Gas (a pet targeted AoE debuff power) was replaced by Venomous Gas. This new power is a PBAoE toggle that significantly weakens enemies in close proximity to the user. |
If the change was for everybody they wouldn't need to change the name.
I just hope Noxious Gas is made either toggle or perma-able to compete.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Sounds like our hard work might have paid off!
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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How did I miss that? I was the one that asked about the MM changes but somehow all I heard was that they were changes, not what they were!|
The Ustream changes are as follows- Envenom and Weaken get small aoe affects equal to 1/2 the debuff on the original target. Akaloid has been buffed. Poison Traps initial Sleep Component has been swapped for a hold. Noxious Gas has been replaced with Venomous Gas- a PBAoE toggle that significantly weakens foes around the user. |
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
If my read-fu is correct, then you're right Zamuel and the change to Venomous gas is just for Controllers/Corruptors.
If the change was for everybody they wouldn't need to change the name. I just hope Noxious Gas is made either toggle or perma-able to compete. |
""Poison for Controllers and Corruptors
This set has been requested for proliferation for a great while and we thought now would be a great time to release it. This set is very much like the Mastermind version, however Noxious Gas (a pet targeted AoE debuff power) was replaced by Venomous Gas. This new power is a PBAoE toggle that significantly weakens enemies in close proximity to the user""
Well it says the USER .. I hope it is an applied debuff to a teammate because it would work better on a tank, brute or scrapper. No Corruptor or Controller is going to get into PBAoe range in order to debuff enemies
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PBAoE vs TAAoE|
Originally Posted by Dayglow
""Poison for Controllers and Corruptors
This set has been requested for proliferation for a great while and we thought now would be a great time to release it. This set is very much like the Mastermind version, however Noxious Gas (a pet targeted AoE debuff power) was replaced by Venomous Gas. This new power is a PBAoE toggle that significantly weakens enemies in close proximity to the user"" Well it says the USER .. I hope it is an applied debuff to a teammate because it would work better on a tank, brute or scrapper. No Corruptor or Controller is going to get into PBAoe range in order to debuff enemies |
It would be on the Corruptor/Controller otherwise it would be an Targeted Ally AoE debuff.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Updated the OP with that suggestion.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom