Poison Set Revamp thread

Yeah we want to use code that's already there to make changes feasible.

I do love this set's theme

I would not want weaken/envenom into AoE's- that just makes the set into a clicky radiation. Performance-wise, I'd love to have a set with highly concentrated debuffs that, though limited, is 'king of the hill' at turning singular entities into jelly. There are more than enough debuff sets that handle the group debuff job.

The odd thing with the set is that usually when a group of abilities do not offer protective mitigation, they offer a way to kill targets faster. In other words, you get the long, safe fight sets or the fast, 'skin of your teeth' fights. Poison is not very strong in the former OR latter. Extremely limited control/buff mitigation, AND limited offensive debuffs.

This is again why I'd go back to a functional sleep trap and improving envenom vs. hard targets being the perfect balance for the set- it maintains both. Sleeping foes mean that if you engage them, you break your mitigation. So from the offense side, sleep barely exists. It's continually broken by your attacks. An improved envenom means that your singular target will die far faster- without sleep as a mitigation, you are operating on the 'kill it fast' method of balance, sans much mitigation. But when you aren't attacking stuff, you are operating on the 'long and safe' method, as it offers no method of killing them faster. Hm. For this to work, I'd actually add a tiny DoT to envenom, ensuring that which is weakened cannot rest.

Noxious gas is your 'ultimate' debuff, so I have no issues with poison getting more consistently available AoE debuffage at its final level- but you look at it, it's still far more limited than other AoE debuffs. (10 targets vs. the standard 16) The AoE debuff is just the cone slow and this toggle, close to a pet. (On who its presence depends) That's none too overpowering, especially considering your biggest debuffs are one target at a time. Still, giving it a very minor toxic DoT to break the improved sleep trap would follow suit with 'kill it fast' theme. (oh, and completely remove the hold. A mag 1000 hold, however unpredictable, completely throws off the balance formulas.)

So in a standard fight with all powers present, a poisoner could take on a huge crowd, but they'd have to be careful. Everything they debuffed to be easier to kill would fight back- everything they were not attacking would sleep harmlessly. The more they engaged, the more danger the mastermind would be in-- but by focusing their assault they could cherry-pick target whilst other rested. Slower, but safer. And facing a full mob on a big team, they could still protect the team well enough when things went bad.

Yeah, either way it is the worst mm secondary. Hope to see it sent to corruptors - I think it would actually work better on a corr unlike traps.

The point of the debuff (of some kind, -damage or -regen would be wonderful) in Paralytic Poison is that because it's a pure hold we can't even got to it for a decent attack (ala-Controller/Dominators/Epic holds)

For example my Merc/Poison MM gets from the Soul Epic tree Soul Storm which is costs 10.66 endurance at 80 meters with a 12 second duration and a 36 second recharge doing 40 damage unehanced. Paralytic is a 9.5 second duration, 16 second that costs 9.

Paralytic does nothing except the hold while Soul does damage and compares much better to a controller hold then Paralytic does.

So add something debuff wise to Paralytic, make it something you want to use on Bosses, AV's or GM's for example

Infini,

I like your list of consolidated suggestions, but there's one missing part. Sometimes people have suggested no changes to a particular power, because they view it as fine as is. I would include that within the list of options when it's been suggested. That way, the consolidated list really points to what people view as priorities: Some have argued that Antidote needs no changes, for example, but no one's argued to leave Poison Trap alone.

Updated. I too agree with the hold suggestion.

Let's keep the thread going! Have to keep at it for it to ever get attention (just ask the tanker forum about changing Ice Melee).

Now, I put this together based on most of the changes that I collected (might be some new ones, too). I'll go over the reasoning behind certain changes as well. I tried to keep the base essence of the set together while also making it more unique. A lot of the ideas I put together here are based on the powers splashing after contact and either leaving some residue (Alkaloid's +regen) or splashing onto something else (proc nature of Envemon/Weaken and TAoE of Antidote).

Feel free to take this and run with it - modifying numbers and the lot.

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Alkaloid -- Kept single target and added a regen buff in hopes that you don't have to spam it constantly. The +regen acts like the Destiny power, Rebirth as you get a quick burst of higher regen that tapers off over the duration of the buff.
16.25 End - 4sec Recharge - 80' Range - 1.53sec Cast
17.6% Heal
15% Toxic Resistance for 60sec (Effect does not stack from same caster)
+100% Regen for 15sec (Ignores enhancement/buff) (Effect does not stack from same caster)
+50% Regen for 15sec (Ignores enhancement/buff) (Effect does not stack from same caster)
+25% Regen for 30sec (Ignores enhancement/buff) (Effect does not stack from same caster)

Envenom -- Making this power behave like the Contagious Confusion proc would make it very unique among debuff powers and still retains the single target emphasis of the original power. You still have to be selective of targets and watch spamming the power, but you will get an 'AoE bonus' from time to time. Made the effects partially unresistable to make set stronger against single, hard targets.
13 End - 12sec Recharge - 70' Range - 1.33sec Cast
-22.5% Def (All) for 30sec (50% effect unresistable) (Effect does not stack from same caster)
-30% Res (All) for 30sec (50% effect unresistable) (Effect does not stack from same caster)
+15% Res (Heal) for 30sec (Effect does not stack from same caster)
-50% Regen for 30sec (50% effect unresistable) (Effect does not stack from same caster)
GrantPower Contagion (Contagious Confusion) (33% Chance)
20sec variation of Envenom to Target

Weaken -- See Envenom for reasoning. The proc power has a different name because I thought that it would conflict with 'Contagion' from Envenom. Both, however, behave the same way.
13 End - 12sec Recharge - 70' Range - 1.33sec Cast
-11.25% ToHit for 30sec (50% effect unresistable) (Effect does not stack from same caster)
-22.5% DmgBuff for 30sec (50% effect unresistable) (Effect does not stack from same caster)
-74.5% Special for 30sec (50% effect unresistable) (Effect does not stack from same caster)
GrantPower Infection (Contagious Confusion) (33% Chance)
20sec variation of Weaken to Target

Neurotoxic Breath -- Increased duration and cone a bit and added a ToHit debuff. You're essentially projectile vomitting at a spawn, so it's reasonable that some of that will get in their eyes.
13 End - 30sec Recharge - 60' Range - 2.67sec Cast - 45deg Arc
-65% Recharge, JumpHeight for 25sec (Ignores enhancement/buff) (Effect does not stack from same caster)
-65% Movement for 25sec (Effect does not stack from same caster)
-5.25 MaxRunSpeed for 25sec (Ignores enhancement/buff) (Effect does not stack from same caster)
+3.576sec Held (Mag2) (25% Chance)
+2sec Held (Mag2) (25% Chance)
-11.25% ToHit for 25sec (Effect does not stack from same caster)

Elixir of Life -- The only change that I think would be awesome would be to make this a pbAoE rez with 15' radius. Rezzing your whole team after a wipe to watch them all puke some time later (and probably wipe again) would be hilarious!
No Changes

Antidote -- Increased the endcost due to it being AoE and increased range to match Alkaloid. Removed Cold resist and added Debuff resistance (not sure what debuffs should be added aside from keeping slow). Yes you can basically get mez protection for yourself, but that's not so bad since other sets do that as well while still being able to debuff things (Traps). Since that is the case, could be better to make this pbAoE, instead.
10 End - 4sec Recharge - 80' Range - 1.53 Cast - 90sec Duration
+Res Stun, Hold, Sleep, Immob, Confuse, Fear, Slow, Debuff
Friendly Targeted AoE 15' Radius

Paralytic Poison -- Added -regen so it still has some use against hold resistant mobs.
9.75 End - 16sec Recharge - 70' Range - 2sec Cast
Mag3 Held for 10sec
-100% Regen for 10sec (Ignores enhancement/buff) (Effect does not stack from same caster)

Poison Trap (Poison Gas) -- Cross bred Poison Trap and Static field for this one. Added the -ToHit because it is a gas cloud, after all. Kept the hold procs the same as NB for those mobs resistant to sleep. Still a skippable power, but now useful, too.
15.6 End - 40sec Recharge - 60' Range - 2.03sec Cast - Location AoE - 25sec Duration
*Clone effects of Static Field - Modifying Animation to fit LAoE nature*
-7.5% ToHit for 25sec (Ignores enhancement/buff) (Effect does not stack from same caster)
+3.576sec Held (Mag2) (25% Chance)
+2sec Held (Mag2) (25% Chance)

Noxious Gas -- This was the difficult power to revamp. So many different options to ponder over. I chose a toggle debuff with an endcost like Telekinesis and a 2 minute recharge that can't be reduced like Willpower or Shield Defense's T9 powers. This version would only accept endredux and range enhancements. You can't spam it, but it should be up whenever you really need it too. Recharge could probably be increased a bit more to further balance since its effects would be partially unresistable and added a little more -regen to it.
3.12 End/sec - 120sec Recharge - 60' Range - 2.07sec Cast
Toggle Ranged Targeted AoE
Default Power's effects unchanged
*Unaffected by Recharge Rate Changes*
25% Effects unresistable
-50% Regen

Personally I'm not too keen on the chance-to-infect idea for Weaken/Envenom. While I do think it would be a nice (and interesting) boost to the powers' performance, it jars with me a bit for the theme - it feels more like something a Disease set would have, rather than a Poison set (and in my mind the two are distinct). Admittedly my knowledge of toxicology is limited, but I never really think of poison as being something that'll spread from person to person.

It's a minor quibble, I know, s'just something that doesn't feel quite right to me. Possibly I'm alone in this.

First villain and first level 50 villain: Robots/Poison

The two glaring needs are: tier 8, trap crap power and additional AoE help.

Alkaloid could use some end cost love, but if it's to be like O2 from Storm, then maybe a little boost to some resist in addition to the toxic damage resist.

Envenom. I like the suggestions, but the one I favor is to leave this one single-target, non-stackable BUT ALSO NON-Resistible. That would be the boss killer.

Weaken. I can see leaving it single target and non-resistible. A small AoE splash like acid arrow would fit the theme, too.

(Envenom and Weaken both recharge fast enough an experienced mastermind can tag the boss and lieutenants. Have you guys seen what poison does to Rommie and the nictus when Rommie is debuffed to be healed and the nictus heal is debuffed?)

I like Neurotoxic breath; my only dream would be a higher chance for hold on the first chance to hold.

I like Elixir of Life as is. Since it does have a crash, perhaps some heftier post-rez buffs for the target. Remember, many chemicals are cure or kill. If it cures the teammate, it should pack a wallop against the foes.

They will NEVER make antidote AoE. It's too much like clarity and clear mind. One BIG thing poison and antidote lack is +perception.

Paralytic poison is a great power that can self stack and it can stack holds with neurotoxic breath. A bit of -resist would be thematic for a lot of poison's that make their victims more 'squishy'.

The trap power is the real clinker. Either make it function like static field (dressed up differently of course) or traps' poison gas trap. I hadn't considered the static field option previously. That would give it an additional soft control function not far afield from the original intent(?) of the trap.

Noxious Gas is fine as is. Masterminds can't cast serum on teammates. Making it a buff/debuff to a non-minion teammate would probably require a higher end cost.

Of all these things, we need to get tier 8 fixed. Flat out, no negotiation yay or nay, anything has to be better.

This thread gets my seal of approval.

I've been spending some off-time thinking about this issue. Thinking about recent powerset revamps (I'm most familiar with Electrical Armor, Energy Aura, and Fiery Aura, but I'm also aware of the changes to War Mace), I think it's safe to say that the Devs are most interested in small changes of scale on a few powers rather than a full change to many powers within a powerset.

I've also been thinking about what Poison is supposed to be, as a mastermind secondary. People think of Poison as the unrivaled single target debuffing set. As others have pointed out, though, other sets can leverage debuffs equal or almost equal to Poison on an AoE basis. Dark Miasma is the strongest case in point, which offers fantastic AoE debuffs as well as a strong set of single target and AoE controls (and don't forget that Fluffy also offers AoE and single target debuffs and controls).

However, I don't think that we should be hoping for changes that make Poison equal to Dark Miasma or Traps. That's not going to happen. I do think it makes sense to realize that Poison does bring something unique to mastermind secondaries: the -special debuff found in Weaken. Similar to Benumb in Cold Domination, Weaken substantially debuffs a target's mezzes, heals, and secondary effects. Weaken also reduces the target's damage output and to hit chances. Weaken is a signature power of Poison, and is one of the powers that provides what mitigation Poison offers to the mastermind and his/her pets.

Given that, I'd recommend considering changes to only three powers. Two of the changes are fairly minor, the last not so minor.

1) Weaken -- Give Weaken a relatively small (on the order of 10') splash radius without changing the recharge time. This would provide some additional mitigation in a set that is short on mitigation. A small radius means that in practice the power helps with small groups, but can still be used effectively and meaningfully against single targets. Weaken does not stack from the same caster, so multiple applications to a small group do not make this overpowered.

2) Noxious Gas -- Allow Noxious Gas to be cast upon any ally. This provides two benefits. It would allow all mastermind primaries a better chance to use this important capstone debuff (while still being easier for some primaries to use solo, however). The second benefit is that it allows Poison to be ready to port to Corruptors. This single change is all that is necessary to make the powerset usable by other ATs. A shorter recharge or longer duration would be nice, but are of much lower priority.

3) Poison Trap -- I think there is universal agreement among players familiar with Poison that this is the power most in need of change. I would recommend one of two changes. The first option, and the easiest from a Dev perspective, is simply to swap in the Traps version of this power. This is not ideal from a Poison player's perspective, however, as the Traps version of Poison Trap offers nothing that a Poison mastermind doesn't already have. It does have a huge regen debuff, but Poison has a stackable regen debuff in Envenom. It also offers a recharge debuff and short duration hold, but Poison also already has those.

I'd recommend another route with Poison Trap, which is to make it more similar to Electric Control's Static Field. Have it either be a trap (but remove the interrupt time) or a tossed power (a thrown or spit blob of poison) similar to Static Field. It would be a reapplied sleep field with the secondary effect of a minor movement and recharge debuff. Or, if adherence to the cottage rule is important, have the secondary effect be an endurance drain (without the endurance boost offered in Static Field). I would expect it would have a somewhat longer recharge time than Static Field.

tl;dr version:

Devs don't wanna change every power, prefer simple changes, Poison's signature power is Weaken.

1) Give Weaken a 10' splash with no increase in recharge time

2) Make Noxious Gas usable on any ally (also allows porting Poison to other ATs)

3) Traps' Poison Trap doesn't offer Poison anything it doesn't already have, make Poison Trap more like Static Field (also adheres to the cottage rule).