Interesting. I will update the first post in a little bit with your suggestions.
EDIT: Updated. I was wondering if you could summarize Noxious a bit so I could add that.
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Quote:
Noxious Gas? Summarized it would be Lower recharge to perma-able levels, endurance cost may need to be raised.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
EDIT: Updated. I was wondering if you could summarize Noxious a bit so I could add that.
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Murphys Military Law
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Speaking from my experience, I could definitely stand to see /Poison buffed. My first villain 50 was a Bots/Poison/Mace, but I had a dedicated (level-pacted) Brute that I teamed with on the regular to help me through. Now that I'm doing Incarnate trials, I definitely feel underpowered and that's even after throwing a tier-3 Musculature boost at my alpha for all my pets to enjoy.
My secondary is bloody useless in about 50% of the current trial activity, especially in the gathering phase of Lambda, and I have to abuse Power Boost (from the Mace Mastery) and the Megalomaniac accolade if I want my Paralytic Poison+Web Cocoon to be any kind of useful against the AVs. Single-target heals I can live with, even if it does feel a little anemic, and I def. get mileage out of the rez on a trial team since SOMEBODY is going to die. But the Neurotoxic and Weaken/Envenom one-two punch just give too little for too much blue.
I specced out of PG Trap after discovering how bad it was, and it's my dubious fortune that I have a Bot drone that likes to slap people to put Noxious Gas on. A change to this power to make it similar to, say, Darkest Night would be a great help, as would expanding the viable carriers to teammates.
Something must be done.
Hello, my name is @Caligdoiel and I'm an altoholic.
So they are going to improve "Quality of Life" for buffers... I wonder what they think of /Poison trying to debuff ONE at a time with Weaken and Envenom? Make it a small cone already! :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Holy !@#$. I thought Neurotoxic Breath can take Hold set since it has hold component. I was going to move my very first villain 50 Merc/Poison to Freedom and was going to plan his first build in Mids. |
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Neurotoxic breath - Would be modified to accept Hold IOs and sets. |
I guess never mind. I thought with the addition of several new hold sets, I can make N. Breath better. ugh. Weak!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
To powerful how? If something has 25% resists and I drop that to -5% resist they take 5% more damage which is laughable, once you take it to 0% your already set since doing 1050 damage is no where near the power boost of taking only 750. The +damage from negative resists is tiny. If the single targets did say -50% to everything then noxious gas adds on another 35% thats -85% which is enough to floor the resists of most everything in the game and those things would much resistant it would be worth... what three reds worth of +damage?|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
My main concern is that if the single target debuffs were made powerful enough to compare with the other sets, then when Noxious Gas is up it would be too powerful. Keeping the single target powers for when you need that next level debuffage allows for single target king without falling behind the AoE sets.
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Which while nice is nothing a kinetic can't do FAR better. Further since AV's resist so much the much higher -50%'s are needed since an AV hit with -50% is only deals with an 8% resistance debuff which is nothing. If 5% of the debuff was unresistable we'd have a reason to bring poisons to AV fights since to get -20% resistance debuffs on an AV requires four Rads or sonics.
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If something has 25% resist and you drop them to -5% resist, they take 30% more damage. Perhaps only 5% is from negative resist, but that's just because the enemy had resistance to start. |
Originally Posted by CptAdder
To powerful how? If something has 25% resists and I drop that to -5% resist they take 5% more damage which is laughable, once you take it to 0% your already set since doing 1050 damage is no where near the power boost of taking only 750.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by CptAdder
The +damage from negative resists is tiny. If the single targets did say -50% to everything then noxious gas adds on another 35% thats -85% which is enough to floor the resists of most everything in the game and those things would much resistant it would be worth... what three reds worth of +damage?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by CptAdder
Which while nice is nothing a kinetic can't do FAR better. Further since AV's resist so much the much higher -50%'s are needed since an AV hit with -50% is only deals with an 8% resistance debuff which is nothing. If 5% of the debuff was unresistable we'd have a reason to bring poisons to AV fights since to get -20% resistance debuffs on an AV requires four Rads or sonics.
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Anyway, If you make envenom and weaken competitive to the AoE debuffs on their own, then when you add NG they will pass the others up. And remember, resistance isn't the only thing being debuffed. Poison hits Damage, Defense, ToHit, Regen, Healing, Mez, and Resistance. This is a set with great ingredients, but poor delivery.
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#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
I agree with William.
I just don't see them tweaking this anytime soon, if the stream is any indication. Black Scorpion made it sound like the powers team is overloaded with work as it is, with the team buffs changes and the huge influx of Lore pet powers coming up.
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Just realized this from another thread, and verified through the power analyzer- weaken does not stack. It reeeeeaaallly should.
In envenom's case, there's a precedent for non-stacking -res debuffs, hence why I mentioned the unresistable/unstackable evenom. But weaken? Power siphon's -damage stacks like crazy. I have no idea why weaken's -damage doesn't. stacking up its -tohit is likewise no issue, as it's a resisted value, and is the second half of this single target mitigative debuff tool. -Speed? That stacks like crazy elsewhere.
If they are worried about the -special (lowing controls/buffs/heals) then that could stay unstackable. But the rest? I'm scratching my head at it.
Which portions of the power should stack then?
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List of ideas I had:
1. Combine Weaken and Envenom. This gives another power to poison to help round out the set.
2. Chain effect for Envenom, Weaken, Alkaloid. This set IS called poison. Contagious spreading would be fun and unique.
3. Make Noxious Gas a toggle. All effects would be toned down/whatever to compensate.
4. Poison Trap needs love. Make it a Targeted-AoE -regen power. Say, 200%?
5. Antidote needs something unique: +10% To all resistances, +10 more to toxic (does not stack).
6. Neurotoxic Breath: Considering it's recharge is really high in comparison to it's clones from Ice Manipulation and Ice Control. Give it a 50% chance of mag 3 immobilize.
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Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
Quote:
As I said, most obviously the -dam, -tohit.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Which portions of the power should stack then?
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The -special could for flavor, but that's something I could let go, given the current strength. (-special beeing -speed, -heal, -mez, -def values on powers the enemy has that do those things.)
I added it to the first post.
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Personally I would like to see a toxic DoT component on some of the powers, not as a balance issue, but just for flavor. I find it odd that the poison set has no damaging powers what so ever. Not much, but a minor DoT on some of the single target abilities would be nice. this wouldn't really hurt us at all since there is no positional def to toxic anyway, but it would add an interrupting component (Which makes sense when you're being poisoned) and would be flavorful. Not really the issue at hand however, on to more serious issues...
I like the idea of keeping poison mostly single-target, that is the idea of the set and that is what it should do better than anyone else. Sadly it doesn't. I would ideally like to see alkaloid made into a quite potent heal. if we only have single target powers and a single target heal is part of that than I feel our single target heal should be superior as well. I also second the suggestions of reducing neurotoxic breath's recharge and making it accept hold enh/sets.
On the topic of weaken and envenom, I think they should stay single target, but they should be upped in power. They are about equal with the AoE debuffs from radiation right now, except that they are ST. I would say if the numbers were increased and maybe the END costs cut a little they would be fine. Alternatively the spreading component would be fine as well if the devs think that more potent debuffs would be dangerous, then we would have to be multi-target.
Poison trap needs to be rewritten completely. There are some good ideas here for that, and I don't know enough about noxious gas to comment there just yet.
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You have a good point, but there are other mm secondaries that do no damage - we need to consider balance. I could see it, as it would be unique.|
Originally Posted by Baleful_Deity
I find it odd that the poison set has no damaging powers what so ever.
I would ideally like to see alkaloid made into a quite potent heal. |
The heal just needs an end cost reduction IMO. Sure, I would love if it was an aoe, but as someone mentioned, it's similar to O2 Boost from Storm without the disorient resistance.
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I find Weaken and Envenom's activation time a bit too long. They are only ST target. Freezing Rain takes about 2s but it hits like 10 targets.
For a ST debuff to work well and frequently, activation, recharge and endurance need to be reduced. And also, you don't need to put +accuracy in Tar Patch and Freezing Rain so I think these two ST debuffs need to have an innate accuracy bonus like Archery.
Freezing Rain only costs 22.8 endurance. If you put Weaken and Envenom on the same target, you already spent 26 end. T_T
I propose:
Envenom
9.75 end (like Gale's cost)
8s Recharge
Activation time 1.00s (currently 1.33s)
Accuracy Bonus 1.20x
Debuff S/L Resistance by 36%. I propose this because /Poison weakens the body the most. Your physical form is weaken so you take more Smashing/Lethal damage. Other resistance type remains at 30%.
Weaken
9.75 end
10s recharge
Activation time 1.33s (currently 2.07s)
Accuracy Bonus 1.20x
I agree that we should keep the Single Target oriented-theme but in order for Single Target attack/debuff to work well, activation time must be quick because of the same period of time, /Poison can only debuff one target while other debuffs are affecting several targets.
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Poison Trap - NEEDS TO BE RENAMED!!!!
1. Get rid of 4s interruption
2. The Sleep and -Endurance effect is too similar to Static Field. I was reading some of the suggestions and I, too, agree that /Poison should deal some damage. Whenever I think of poison, I think of DoT damage and debuffs. If we don't want to break the cottage rule, I propose this:
When "Poison Bomb" gets set off, the Green Clouds deal initial AoE 40.4 Toxic Damage and then the affected targets are put to sleep, just like how Frozen Aura function. 40.4 damage is like a 6s attack like Dual Pistol. Repulsion Bomb does 30.6 damage but that has 30s recharge. Poison Trap has 60s and it requires 5s casting time.
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Neurotoxic Breath
1. Allow it to accept Hold Sets. That's it. If it can, then at least you can put Chance to hold and proc damage to make it more interesting.
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Noxious Gas
1. Reduce recharge from 300s to 240s.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Ok, updated the OP. No doubt other changes are coming with Issue 21, and even though the devs have their hands full with everything announced, I am still holding out some hope.
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I realize that the end cost cut for training sorta helps us but Poison still takes a bit too much end for single target.
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Quote:
Yes, now that single shields are aoe now, /Poison set needs a pretty MAJOR Revamp. It makes no sense that single debuff costs 13 end.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
I realize that the end cost cut for training sorta helps us but Poison still takes a bit too much end for single target.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Indeed. While the changes to the shields were pretty much mandatory and I don't think anyone with an intelligent mind would hate them, I can't help but feel like Envenom and Weaken could have gotten a similar treatment.
I say similar, not down right the same. I still feel like these 2 powers are the core of the set and any change to these two would essentially make the overall set better. Noxious Gas comes second, as it's problems are more than just numbers, its literally bugged (can't see it's affects in the tooltip).
And poison Trap. Can we just scrap this power? Screw the cottage rule, I highly doubt more than 2 people will actually miss this power and rage that it totally ruined their experience. If anything the people that took this power and said "gee, this is an average power that i'll use atleast 4 times" should be slapped and told that even the slightest bit of positivity towards this power is wrong.
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Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
Quote:
Good grief yes. I think that really put Poison at the bottom of the list. There's just too much not working for Poison now.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Yes, now that single shields are aoe now, /Poison set needs a pretty MAJOR Revamp. It makes no sense that single debuff costs 13 end.
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I can only hope they at least glance at it after Issue 21. I think they have their plate full with incarnate powers, time manipulation, heavy weapons, etc...
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Quote:
"average power"? That's such high praise.... hehe|
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
If anything the people that took this power and said "gee, this is an average power that i'll use at least 4 times"
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This power isn't even a "bad" power. It's below "bad" tier. It's only a tiny bit higher than "useless".
The power has zero synergy with the rest of the set or with Mastermind in general. None of the pets can drain endurance so the -end effect is pointless. And why does /Poison set have a "trap"?
I rather "puke" a pile of s!@# and cause the enemies to "puke" and "slip" down.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I was thinking about Poison Trap some more and reckon the trap element should just be abandoned/replaced - it doesn't mesh terribly well with the rest of the set. Maybe if it were a "Poisoner" set, with most of the effects delivered via darts, vials, etc, but not so much when all the other effects are spat, breathed, or 'projected' from the hands. It's like if Fire Melee and Blast had used a Flamethrower for Fire Breath; it may look cool, it may even suit some players' themes better, but it's out of place with the rest of the set. Plus we already have a traps set and it already has a poison trap.
So I'm going to restate some earlier ideas, that it be a placeable 'patch' type power.
So, Theme:
Poison Cloud (or similar) - what poison themed set of powers, spells, etc, doesn't come with the ability blanket an area with gas?
Character Animation: Darkest Night/Steamy Mist clone would suffice (or similar)
Gfx: gas cloud, same as current poison trap(s) generate.
Mechanics:
- Ranged Location AoE
- Duration: 20 seconds
- Recharge: around 60 to 90 seconds
- Endurance Cost: 20
- 5% chance of vomit-hold (whether that's the much loved irresistible variety, or just a regular hold (say, mag 2 with 20% chance of further mag 2?)). Tick rate similar to Freezing Rain's knockdown.
- -40% recharge
- -40% movement speed
- -250% regen
- Minor Toxic DoT (it does seem silly that a set called "Poison" is entirely non-lethal)
The removal of the trap aspect could, I suppose, be viewed as violating the cottage rule, but with a power as abysmal as this I think some lee-way can be given there. And it does still fill the overall function of an area debuff/mez.
I'd originally thought either just clone Traps' version, or clone Static Field - the former because we all know that version is popular, and the latter because it seems to be what they *tried* to do with Poison's version, only done right. But as mentioned I don't think a trap fits the set, and I'm not so keen on just 'stealing' Electric Control's thunder. So I figure the above a) fits the theme and b) can be stacked well with the set's other every-battle aoe debuff. I think -move/recharge is about as good a representation of diminishing a target's ability to act as -end/recovery, and works better overall given how all-or-nothing -end/recovery is vs NPCs - the existing power doesn't really accomplish anything with its -end because it's so weak, NPCs can just ignore it even if affected.
Plus making people throw up is always popular.
Do that and make Noxious Gas usable on team members and it's good to go for porting to other ATs as far as I'm concerned (assuming other ATs lose the MM 'inherent' extra endurance cost when it's ported.
I love Poison as a concept, and probably my favorite concept is my Thugs/Poison. Imagine The Joker mushed together with the Mad Hatter, or Willy Wonka as a drug dealer.
If I had my way with Poison here's what I'd do and why.
Alkaloid and Antidote - Antidote gets Alkaloid's +Res(still unenhanceable) and it would get the same treatment as ID with regard to being AoE. Alkaloid would get a +Perception and KB protection added. No AoE obviously.
Envenom/Weaken - Stays the same
Neurotoxic breath - Would be modified to accept Hold IOs and sets.
Poison Trap - Poison trap would still be single target, it would lose it's interrupt time and use the throw gob animation. It would have 10 tics. On the first tic there would be a chance to sleep and a 100% chance to drain 10% End and give allies around the enemy some end. Every tic after would have a 10% less chance to drain 10% end. Like Fire power DoTs, if a tic fails there would be no more chances.
Noxious Gas - This is where the biggest change would come. If I had my way the recharge on this power would be lowered to perma-able levels.
The first 8 powers don't live up to the other sets. Even with the suggested buffs. The available debuffs are beat out by AoE debuff sets when there are 2 or more enemies, and any sizable buffs to the debuff potential of Envenom and Weaken makes the set too powerful as the trade off that comes from the ability to double stack them with NG is lost.
Players would spend the first levels relying on their first 8 powers. They would learn when a debuff is needed vs a control being needed vs a buff. They would learn to manage the blue bar and predict the need for certain powers, and as they gain more enhancements they'd get a bit of an endurance buffer. Then they get Noxious gas. Enemies are tougher now, and with the likelyhood that NG is up all the time, the endurance buffer the player once had would be gone. They would once again need to learn to balance the need for super debuff for some control or buffing. Poison would have a base debuff level that matched other sets with the ability to, in a very targeted way, provide some powerful utility. At least that would be the goal.
My main concern is that if the single target debuffs were made powerful enough to compare with the other sets, then when Noxious Gas is up it would be too powerful. Keeping the single target powers for when you need that next level debuffage allows for single target king without falling behind the AoE sets.
Anyway, it's quite likely I'm insane, and i'll keep playing my MMs until the pets start freezing mid zone and not just the transitions or the AI degrades to nothing, but I really would like to see Poison improved.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.