LM, I feel your pain, up to a point, since a number of my favorite characters are performing at less than their usual excellence in the trials. No doubt it will take a while to optimize tactics and builds.
That said, I've always been a little perplexed by the reputation of Illus/Rad. How in the heck do you even manage "normal" content with such a limited amount of crowd control?
My main is Illus/Storm, and I find the extra knockdown/knockup/stun/slow absolutely essential. Rad toggles, while very useful, aren't much as crowd control goes; and an unreliable hold at melee range is just nuts on squishy! Lack of a self-heal really hurts Storm, but I'll take that hit for the indestructible pseudo-pets alone.
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Choking Cloud sir, Choking Cloud.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
I have found myself frustrated with my Ill/Rad in both of the new Incarnate trials, but especially in one phase of the BAF trial -- escaping mental patients.
This section appears to have been set up for Controllers to handle the minions while the other guys take care of the lieutenants and bosses. The controllers (and Dominators) can only control the minions to prevent their escape. However, Spectral Terror is worthless -- even the minions run right through and past it. They show the fear animation, but otherwise ignore it. PA doesn't seem to hold their attention, either -- They just run past the ghosty guys. Since Illusion is substanially lacking in other AoE control, I find this part of the trial to be extremely frustrating on my Ill/Rad (and Ill/Cold, but he at least has Sleet and Snow Storm). The Ill/Rad only has Flash and EM Pulse on long timers for AoE control. In effect, I am mostly limited to chasing down single foes to attack with my Blind-SW-Blast-SW chain. Phanty helps a fair amount by blasting and knocking back foes. But I feel that due to the design of this part of the trial, several of my key powers have been (unfairly) neutralized. Spectral Terror should have some effect. The minions should at least pause for a few seconds due to the fear effect. |
I know you've always said that its counterintuitive to Ill/Rad, but there you go, a use for it, even if it is a pretty fringe use... is respecing into it solely for the BAF a good idea? probably not. Does it cover the fact that most of this issue with no AoE control is an issue with illusion? no!
But still, its a asmall answer to your woes.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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It is not the exact same scenario . . . stack enough Immobs on an AV and he/she can be immobed. Some can be slept. And all the other powers work on the other foes who spawn. Creepers works on AVs, drawing some aggro and doing damage. I've used Creepers to take the Alpha on AVs. And the problems that Plant controllers have with AVs are pretty much similar to the problems ALL controllers have with AVs -- most of the controls aren't effective. The point here is that the particular choice of limits built into this mission is that other controllers are effective while all three of Illusion's unique tools are made ineffective. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
No, because this exact scenario exists in AV fights and people just assume its part of the "tax" of playing the set.
I think once you try a few other characters in the raids you'll see the love went around to all of them. All boss spawns mean Arctic Air does nothing [edit: worth risking your life at close range for], fun fun.  And other such things. |
I can't think of another part of the game where one powerset's primary tools were neutralized while others of the same AT remain effecive. Illusion only has left the single target and AoE holds for control. All other control sets have other controls that can be used on that encounter.
Sure, in all boss spawns, Artic Air loses its main form of control (confuse) . . . but so do Choking Cloud (hold), Static Field (sleep), World of Confusion (confuse), and lots of other PB AoE auras. And Ice Control can still use slows with -Recharge, Ice Slick to knock down bosses, or multiple applications of Chilblain and Frostbite to immobilize bosses, etc.
There are parts in this game where the weaknesses of various sets are exploited . . . using high Psi or Toxic damage, for example. But those weaknesses affact multiple powersets and multiple ATs. The Blue Fields of Death neutralize the high defense possible in many builds. Ambushes neutralize invisibility and distraction, but other forms of control work. There are certain foes in the game that resist certain forms of control, making them tougher for any controllers who use those forms of control. Nemesis resist Confuse and Fear . . . but will still fall under the distraction of PA. Plant Controllers still have Creepers and the AoE Immob and the Sleep (if they take it). Mind Controllers still have AoE Sleep. Each set has something else to fall back upon.
I've tried other characters in the Trials, and understand that certain powers and parts of powers are made ineffective . . . that's fine because they have something else to fall back on. My Ice Blaster made a much better controller than my Illusion Controller. My Elec/Shield scrapper had plenty of damage for chasing down the runaways. My Dark/Elec Defender has AoE slows and a couple of holds.
This particular encounter encourages the use of AoE control (to stop the patients from running away), and then neutralizes Fear, Confuse and Aggro/Distraction as usable forms of control. Illusion is the only Controller powerset that loses all of its ability to control other than the same single target and long-recharge AoE that all controllers get. I have no idea whether this was intentional, but it just seems unusual for a segment in a Trial to specifically neutralize one powerset from one AT to this degree when others are not similarly affected.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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It is not at all limited when you consider that Spectral Terror is perma out of the box. In low levels (and assuming I don't have perma-PA), I throw out PA to start. Then I pick an anchor or two for my debuffs. Then I take down a few foes, starting with minions first (to take advantage of Illusory damage). When PA is about to run out, then Spooky is cast to continue the control if needed. If any foe try to run, they are the first ones to get stopped with Blind or Deceive. Invisibility protects me from most "adds." Liberal use of Deceive and the Rad debuffs keep me from being the focus of much damage, and I have a heal for when I do take damage. Combine the damage buff from AM with the Resistance Debuff from EF, and you get damage that is probably pretty equivalent to the Resistance debuff from Freezing Rain. The ToHit Debuff is virtually the same as an AoE control power.|
Originally Posted by Indomitable
LM, I feel your pain, up to a point, since a number of my favorite characters are performing at less than their usual excellence in the trials. No doubt it will take a while to optimize tactics and builds.
That said, I've always been a little perplexed by the reputation of Illus/Rad. How in the heck do you even manage "normal" content with such a limited amount of crowd control? |
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| My main is Illus/Storm, and I find the extra knockdown/knockup/stun/slow absolutely essential. Rad toggles, while very useful, aren't much as crowd control goes; and an unreliable hold at melee range is just nuts on squishy! Lack of a self-heal really hurts Storm, but I'll take that hit for the indestructible pseudo-pets alone. |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Admittedly, that is one place where Choking Cloud could help. But rather than add in a power that needs 5-6 slots and a huge amount of endurance that isn't all that useful most of the time, I'd rather just complain and get a bunch of people riled up on the forums. |
Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
Choking Cloud sir, Choking Cloud.
I know you've always said that its counterintuitive to Ill/Rad, but there you go, a use for it, even if it is a pretty fringe use... is respecing into it solely for the BAF a good idea? probably not. Does it cover the fact that most of this issue with no AoE control is an issue with illusion? no! But still, its a asmall answer to your woes. |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
For the last few years I've organized All Control TFs (Doms are included for coop events) on Guardian server. We ran our first All Control BAF on Guardian this weekend and had a blast. For strategy we had the controllers work the doors and the doms roving the areas in between taking out the lts. as needed. My default controller for these since I19 has been my Illusion/Cold and I found that I ended up backing off the doors a bit and falling into more of the dominator role and just being a ST damage dealer throwing out Sleet when it was available either at the door or on the path if someone elses minions made it our direction. For the most part, most things were dead or down to a sliver (even the lts) by the time it got to the backline people. We ended up only letting 6 escape. Four of which were under the last minute and I think most people were just happy to be at the end of the countdown that they let up a little and relaxed.
My experience with a normal team found me in the standard controller role and I did feel a little of the frustration that Local is expressing and had to adjust strategy but wishing I was on my plant/fire dom or one of my earth or fire trollers. I ended up in a team with Local (on non controllers) later in the weekend and we discussed Illusion control and the BAF a bit. My response: they don't have to be controlled if they are dead. And after some thought, a third "BAF" build could be useful employing Choking Cloud for minions at the doors and ST attacking lts as they come out with blasters or scrappers mopping up what's left. /shrug.
I do think some people are being a bit tough on Local (one of CoH's biggest champions of the Illusion controller) for pointing out that this trial is kind of the illusionist's Kryptonite. It's not like it was a "I hate i20" whine post or "Doooooooom! the game is ruined" rant. Cut him a little slack, heck there probably isn't anyone in game that has taught more people more things about Illusion control. Besides as people progress on their Incarnate powers you start to realize that these encounters are made for people with those power available, and let me just say a team with judgement powers (regardless of ATs) at the doors is a much different experience than a bunch of first week-leveling-without powers- Incarnates.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Having played through BAF w/my Fire/Rad, Ill/Kin & Ice/Storm, yeah, not having an AoE immob is killer for that phase. My Fire & Ice freeze minions at their spawn points and let others worry about the lts (I do passing damage to them but don't chase). On my Ill/Kin, I try to position Phanty to blow back the minions to the doors w/his ET, but that never works out. I spam my FS'ed Fireball as much as it's up, but that's about it. I'm almost tempted to just play a weaker Kin defender for that period, giving the whole league SB to chase mobs down. And Interface gives Ill the least benefits w/o fast AoE attacks w/which to get off procs.
Then again, come the AV fights, he totally kicks butt again, so I'm not too down on the situation.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
I can't think of another part of the game where one powerset's primary tools were neutralized while others of the same AT remain effecive.
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You mean like Illusion versus any other set in an AV fight.
Lag reduces the effectiveness of most classes on that phase of the BAF. Ill/Rad is not alone in that regard. Even if you had an effective control, being able to use it before everything runs off would still be a fail most of the time. Choking Cloud is particularly good because it isn't affected by lag (as far as I can tell) since it is a toggle. Also, epic pools like ice and stone provide alternate means of control -- probably ice would be best. If you are really concerned over that phase, I bet you could put an alternate build together that made you feel more effective. As a matter of fact, I posted an Ill/Rad/Ice build with Choking Cloud last week that fits the bill almost perfectly. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=256216
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I have to ask - would you agree with the following statements as well?|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Illusion therefore has to adapt to become a somewhat less effective Blaster instead of a Controller. I'm not used to Illusion being weakened in most of the game, so I thought it felt "unfair."
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Tankers therefore have to adapt to become somewhat less effective Scrappers instead of Tankers. I'm not used to Tankers being weakened in most of the game, so I thought it felt "unfair."
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Is it OK to disregard all powersets of an entire AT during one portion of one trial, and not OK to target one primary powerset of another AT during that same portion? Sometimes we do need to allow other teammates with other abilities to fulfill their roles while we take more of a backseat - we'll have other chances to shine.
Current primary characters, all on Guardian:
The Amber Fist (Elec/Stone Tanker) | Pixelbeater (Fire/Kin Corr) | The Sequencer (Bots/Traps MM)
Blakkat (Claws/Dark Brute) | Mhogus'thra (Ill/Dark Cont) | Wyldhunt (Beast/Dark MM)
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I remembered this just after I posted. Dark is going to be hurt by something like this as well. Yes, Dark beings the debuffs, but FS is a big part of it's mitigation. My point is while Ill is hurt the most, I don't see where the devs are targeting it.
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Mind control has never been seen as overpowered by anybody. And if so, it certainly isn't represented in the character population. Heck, just look around the forums. MOST threads are going to be about Fire, Illu (usually coupled with rad), and Plant. Go in-game and tell me how many mind controllers you run into compared to other controllers.
Anyway, the no-fear effect hurts illu MORE because fear is only one tool in mind's AoE arsenal (mass hyp, total dom, TK, and Mass Confusion -though that's useless here, too). Fear is Illu's ONLY AoE option outside of a Hold. Also, Minds fear does damage, so it's good for at least that. |
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It is not the same . . . because ALL Tanks are in the exact same position as scrappers and brutes . . . since the escaping patients ignore aggro, you have to spend your time chasing down runners to do damage. But your secondary is Damage, and that is fully effective and, in fact, essential to a Tank's role in that part of the Trial.|
Originally Posted by Wyldhunt
I have to ask - would you agree with the following statements as well?
--- Tankers therefore have to adapt to become somewhat less effective Scrappers instead of Tankers. I'm not used to Tankers being weakened in most of the game, so I thought it felt "unfair." --- Is it OK to disregard all powersets of an entire AT during one portion of one trial, and not OK to target one primary powerset of another AT during that same portion? Sometimes we do need to allow other teammates with other abilities to fulfill their roles while we take more of a backseat - we'll have other chances to shine. |
Where this Trial is unique is that all other Controllers other than Illusion have powers beyond the single target and AoE holds that can control the minions. Only Illusion is unable to apply other control powers because Illusion's other control powers have been made invalid by the systems of the mission.
Are there any other places in the game where one particular powerset, but not an entire AT, has been made invalid?
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
i normally feel great in the BAF with my ill/rad because i simply drop all my powers and patches near the door where the resis escape
means: PA, Spectral terror and Phantasm do what the can best dealing damage or letting minions fly or stay
i normally than concentrate on leutis with all my attacks so that almost no escaper come beyound me
Helge corr lvl 50 rad/cold
Helge2 corr lvl 50 ice/rad
Techbothelge MM lvl 50 robo/dark
Helge Mauz def lvl 50 emp/ele
illuhelge troller lvl 50 illu/rad
Wiederbelebter helge nk lvl 50 bs/reg
Maennerschreack nightwidow lvl 44
Quantenjaeger ws lvl 3
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I gotta disagree with you pretty strongly on this. You feel like your primary powerset has been invalidated, and you've been relegated to a less-effective Blaster. That is an accurate paraphrasing of your own words, and not taken out of context. Tankers are not in the exact same position as Scrappers and Brutes - both of the latter primarily do damage, whereas that is a secondary for Tankers. This means that Tankers are less-effective Scrappers, which is in the same realm as Illusion Controllers becoming less-effective Blasters.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
It is not the same . . . because ALL Tanks are in the exact same position as scrappers and brutes
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Are there any other places in the game where one particular powerset, but not an entire AT, has been made invalid?
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Again I'll say sometimes we do need to allow other teammates with other abilities to fulfill their roles while we take more of a backseat - we'll have other chances to shine. That is as true for the Illusion powerset among Controller powersets as it is for Tankers among other ATs.
Current primary characters, all on Guardian:
The Amber Fist (Elec/Stone Tanker) | Pixelbeater (Fire/Kin Corr) | The Sequencer (Bots/Traps MM)
Blakkat (Claws/Dark Brute) | Mhogus'thra (Ill/Dark Cont) | Wyldhunt (Beast/Dark MM)
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
It is not the same . . . because ALL Tanks are in the exact same position as scrappers and brutes . . . since the escaping patients ignore aggro, you have to spend your time chasing down runners to do damage. But your secondary is Damage, and that is fully effective and, in fact, essential to a Tank's role in that part of the Trial.
Where this Trial is unique is that all other Controllers other than Illusion have powers beyond the single target and AoE holds that can control the minions. Only Illusion is unable to apply other control powers because Illusion's other control powers have been made invalid by the systems of the mission. Are there any other places in the game where one particular powerset, but not an entire AT, has been made invalid? |
And again the question is: so what? So what if one time Illusion isn't the best? Plenty of sets have this issue in various pieces of content. And Illusion is probably the last set in the entire game anyone need feel sorry for, as I'm sure you know. It is just kind of weird to me that you are focusing on Illusion's weakness in this one short part of a raid and hand waving the life time of shortcomings other sets face frequently, including this same raid.
EDIT: I think that came across harsher than intended. You and I have coexisted for a long time on the boards without significant turmoil, so I don't want to start any now. I just feel like what you are saying is basically what could be said about any number of sets, and also that any concern you have about the difficulty of this phase will largely go away once you have more experience with it.
Well, I have no problem with Illu "not being the best", HOWEVER, i think LM's point is that Ill is now the WORSE of all the controller sets for this particular raid.
TBH i think Illu players just need to blast things with their APPs during the escape phase and deal with the change of pace just this once. If future content further marginalizes our abilities, though, that'd count as a Bad Thing.
As for LM's question about one given powerset being targeted against, I'm not quite sure there IS one. I'm mostly positive that Cim traitors were given mez resistence so they couldn't be farmed as easily by fire/kins, but that affected most controllers, too.
Also, I don't think the Devs sat around thinking of a way to completely mitigate illusion. They just wanted a mob type that couldn't be controlled, period. They let the mobs be debuffed and knocked around (though i'm noticing the LTs don't seem to get knocked around as much as i remember on test), but that's it. They threw Controllers a bone and let us sleep/hold/immob/stun the Minions, but fear and confuse still don't work on them, which makes sense because they're brainwashed by an Incarnate-level Mother Mayhem.
You can still lay down an AoE on minions. You can still slow down and snipe LTs. You can still debuff AVs and keep adds off the team's back during the final phase. Ill/rad isn't totally useless, but it's not King of this particular Hill with its normal playstyle. Adapt and prosper!
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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The difference is that all tankers are in the same situation, since Defense/Resistance/Damage Mitigation is pretty useless. (Well, there are a few powers in Tanker Primaries here and there that have some use, like Ice Armor's Chilling Embrace, which includes a Slow.) Of Controllers, only Illusion has had its other forms of AoE control made ineffective -- all other controllers have something to work with.|
Originally Posted by Wyldhunt
I gotta disagree with you pretty strongly on this. You feel like your primary powerset has been invalidated, and you've been relegated to a less-effective Blaster. That is an accurate paraphrasing of your own words, and not taken out of context. Tankers are not in the exact same position as Scrappers and Brutes - both of the latter primarily do damage, whereas that is a secondary for Tankers. This means that Tankers are less-effective Scrappers, which is in the same realm as Illusion Controllers becoming less-effective Blasters.
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This statement of yours does let me know you feel this is OK to be done by AT, but not powerset - another viewpoint of yours I strongly disagree with. Even so, yes, I know of plenty of powersets which are bascially "invalid" because they significantly underperform other powersets in much of the content. Gravity control can be considered a contender for this. Again I'll say sometimes we do need to allow other teammates with other abilities to fulfill their roles while we take more of a backseat - we'll have other chances to shine. That is as true for the Illusion powerset among Controller powersets as it is for Tankers among other ATs. |
And I think folks are still misunderstanding the entire point . . . Yes, I agree that Illusion is great most of the time and often has advantages over other sets for certain situations. Yes, I agree that Illusionists need to adapt to the situation. I was pointing out that this particular encounter is set up to neutralize Illusion's powers while allowing other controllers to still be effective. Then I was expressing my opinion that it is a bit unfair compared to other controllers.
In part, I wanted folks running the BAF to realize that they should not expect Illusion Controllers to provide their usual level of controlling contribution to this phase of the Trial. I was on one Trial where the team leader sent my Illusion/Rad to one door expecting me to handle the spawns as they came out . . . and I just didn't have the tools.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Actually I can think of one situation where one particular power was specifically targetted by the Devs . . . when they made it so Hamidon is the only thing in the game that can kill Phantom Army. |
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Well, I have no problem with Illu "not being the best", HOWEVER, i think LM's point is that Ill is now the WORSE of all the controller sets for this particular raid.
TBH i think Illu players just need to blast things with their APPs during the escape phase and deal with the change of pace just this once. If future content further marginalizes our abilities, though, that'd count as a Bad Thing. As for LM's question about one given powerset being targeted against, I'm not quite sure there IS one. I'm mostly positive that Cim traitors were given mez resistence so they couldn't be farmed as easily by fire/kins, but that affected most controllers, too. Also, I don't think the Devs sat around thinking of a way to completely mitigate illusion. They just wanted a mob type that couldn't be controlled, period. They let the mobs be debuffed and knocked around (though i'm noticing the LTs don't seem to get knocked around as much as i remember on test), but that's it. They threw Controllers a bone and let us sleep/hold/immob/stun the Minions, but fear and confuse still don't work on them, which makes sense because they're brainwashed by an Incarnate-level Mother Mayhem. |
And I agree that there are some conceptual bases for the effects in this mission . . . with the net effect of making it feel as though my favorite powerset combo has been singled out. Maybe not intentionally, but that's the effect.
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| You can still lay down an AoE on minions. You can still slow down and snipe LTs. You can still debuff AVs and keep adds off the team's back during the final phase. Ill/rad isn't totally useless, but it's not King of this particular Hill with its normal playstyle. Adapt and prosper! |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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LM, I never disparaged Illu/Rad as being useless. What I was trying to say is that Rad gives up some crowd control for enhanced damage-dealing.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
It is not at all limited when you consider that Spectral Terror is perma out of the box. In low levels (and assuming I don't have perma-PA), I throw out PA to start. Then I pick an anchor or two for my debuffs. Then I take down a few foes, starting with minions first (to take advantage of Illusory damage). When PA is about to run out, then Spooky is cast to continue the control if needed. If any foe try to run, they are the first ones to get stopped with Blind or Deceive. Invisibility protects me from most "adds." Liberal use of Deceive and the Rad debuffs keep me from being the focus of much damage, and I have a heal for when I do take damage. Combine the damage buff from AM with the Resistance Debuff from EF, and you get damage that is probably pretty equivalent to the Resistance debuff from Freezing Rain. The ToHit Debuff is virtually the same as an AoE control power.
It is simply learning to adjust to different tools available and understanding those tools. Ill/Storm is a lot of fun and very powerful. Storm adds a lot of nice tools. But Rad is very effective as well in a less chaotic way. . . the debuffs add a lot of protection and the buff to Recharge, Recovery and damage add a lot. And the self-heal and -Regen fill roles that Storm lacks. |
Yes, there's a slow, and a huge hold that's up once a month, and some builds can make use of random PBAOE holds, but the toggles are more of an offensive tool than crowd control. They certainly don't stop MOBs from spreading out, often out of the area of effect. Teammates also usually take down the anchors first.
As with defense, reliable crowd control depends on a multilayered approach. Builds that skip a few layers of pure control for enhanced damage represent a tradeoff.
I would much prefer it if no encounter ever trivialized any build whatsoever, but that might not be a realistic design criterion. Hopefully there will be a realistic alternative to BAFs soon.
So Illusion might be slightly weaker in one phase of one trial. And yet you still say you were able to contribute and adapt. I see nothing wrong here.
With how many powerset combinations there are in this game, I don't think it's practical to expect every single encounter be perfectly balanced for each one. Like other people have said, that's where your 10 or so other teammates fit in.
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This! I totally agree and can confirm this is working very well.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
I'd move the Ill/Rad into the LT killing position; it still packs a lot of damage and is perfectly capable of killing the uncontrollable LT's reasonably quickly. Take the blaster/scrapper role in that portion of the trial instead of the controller role and I think you'll have a different outcome.
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
We're being invaded. Again. This time, instead of aliens, zombies, or eyeballs with teeth, it's the marching band.
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It is difficult to take your comments seriously when your previous comments are...|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
First and foremost . . . . I didn't post this because I didn't know how to contribute . . . I figured that out pretty quickly. I have generally been pretty good figuring out how to adapt my many controllers and my playstyle to most situations.
And, by the way, I have Ill/Rad, Ill/Storm, Ill/TA and Ill/Cold all at 50 . . . with an Ill/Kin not quite there yet. Every one of them has been able to be "highly effective" before getting "perma-PA." In fact, the only one who has it currently is my Ill/Rad. (I wrote my original version of my Ill/Rad guide long before I ever got "perma-PA.") Your comments suggest that without Perma-PA, Illusion is a weak set. You describe PA as a "crutch" and Spectral Terror as the only form of AoE control that Illusion gets other than the AoE Hold, and you describe Spooky as "soft control at best" . . . Well, I see PA as primarily a form of control. It is a very effective form of control through distraction. Like a hold or a stun, PA keep foes from attacking the team and make it easier for the team to take down the foes. By drawing aggro, Phantom Army acts as AoE control, effectively keeping the foes distracted for 60 seconds -- that's why Illusion is a control set. PA is not a "crutch" no more than Flashfire or Earthquake are "crutches." It is another form of AoE control. It just happens to be a very, very effective one, able to distract bosses and AVs as well as minions. But Illusion trades some of the AoE goodies in other sets for that effective control. The distinction of "soft" and "hard" is pretty ambiguous. Different folks have different opinions on what types of controls should be considered "hard." Immobs and Sleeps set up Containment -- should they be considered "hard?" What about Confuses, which completely neuter foes but allow them to run around and does not establish Containment -- is that "hard" or "soft"? Spectral Terror is effective AoE control most of the time. I would rank it above most sleep powers, above Immobs . . . and kind of hard to rank compared to knockdown powers. Even a non-Perma-PA Illusionist can provide effective control simply by alternating the forms of control available . . . PA followed by Spectral Terror will easily keep a group continually controlled . . . or even Spectral Terror alone. And Spooky is perma as soon as you get it (even without Hasten). That seems like pretty effective control to me. Oh well, the point of this was not to debate the effectiveness of Illusion . . . your posts appear that you don't like it, and that's certainly your choice. I didn't need the history lesson, since I have been around since Issue 2. The point was simply a little bit of a complaint . . . this part of BAF trial has neutralized both powers that Illusion counts on for AoE control, in a part of the trial where AoE control is important. The trial excluded a normally very effective controller from using its normally effective control powers. The changes to the normal "status quo" hit Illusion harder than other control sets, as the other sets have other forms of AoE control that remain effective. Illusion therefore has to adapt to become a somewhat less effective Blaster instead of a Controller. I'm not used to Illusion being weakened in most of the game, so I thought it felt "unfair." |
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
I understand that many feel that Illusion has an overly-strong advantage in some situations . . . it also has weaknesses in the lack of other AoE options, lack of hard control, lack of AoE damage.<snipped for brevity>
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Ill/Rads are strong against single targets . . . but not strong against large groups. Ill/Rad relies upon Distraction and Fear rather than hard controls -- <snip for brevity>
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I have nothing else to add to this pointless debate over semantics and stand by my original comments.
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How does that "support" your position? There is nothing inconsistant with what you quoted in my large response and what you quoted in the smaller snippets. I agree that Illusion's Distraction and Fear that it uses for AoE control are not "hard control," as that term is normally used. I never claimed that they were. But they are effective control even if they are "soft."|
Originally Posted by Saltyhero13
It is difficult to take your comments seriously when your previous comments are...
...and... ...that actually support my position. I have nothing else to add to this pointless debate over semantics and stand by my original comments. |
You seem to think that Illusion is lacking because it doesn't have hard control . . . and my position is that it works fine for AoE control. "Hard" and "soft" controls aren't that important -- what matters is that the controls are effective.
Other control sets are also effective with few "hard" controls . . . depending upon your definition of "hard." Electric Control does well with Sleep, Immob, Endurance Drain and Confuse. Are those "hard" or "soft?" Mind uses Terrorize as its most-frequent form of control, and uses Sleeps and Confuses.
And you seem to think that without "perma-PA," Illusion is lacking. I pointed out that "Perma-PA," while very nice to have, is not necessary to have an effective controller. . . And you had no response to that.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I think at this point people are arguing to argue. Illusion has less hard controls and no immobilize. We all know that. It's fine to point that out for the BAF. But this isn't a a new issue or a problem, it's just how the set works. It's always better vs smaller tougher spawns than larger "normal" spawns. It has never been a "lockdown" controller. I thinks it's time to move on.
I could point out how my controller using three pbaoe toggles and a pbaoe heal, at -4 levels, on the Lambda and BAF has gotten me killed. But no one would be surprised about that either...
@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
Ill/Rad will be still be excellent in the rest of the phases though so I don't really see too much of an issue here.
Whereas on my Plant/Emp the opposite happens. She's great in the Escaping phase, since Plant is basically the king of AOE Immob, but Creepers isn't a hell of a lot of use vs the AVs, nor are Seeds much use against Boss level mobs (unless there's a second Planty on your team).
Spectral Terror on the other hand has that 15-30% ToHit debuff on it, perfect for stacking against those reinforcement spawns of 9CUs and Vikkies while you stick all your debuffs on an AV of choice and let PAs distract them.