Illusion/Rad is weak in the BAF trial

Antarcticaa · 05-07-2011 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Local_Man

In part, I wanted folks running the BAF to realize that they should not expect Illusion Controllers to provide their usual level of controlling contribution to this phase of the Trial. I was on one Trial where the team leader sent my Illusion/Rad to one door expecting me to handle the spawns as they came out . . . and I just didn't have the tools.

I have to agree with LM, 100%. My ill/rad is tier 3 in all her incarnate slots, so you'd think she'd be a monster in the BAF. I've been left alone at doors several times by teammates who thought "She's an ill/rad, she's got this." Noooooo. I've employed strategies similar to what LM has described, and the bottom line is extreme frustration. It is as if the devs have taken a boom stick to this particular set. We want to do our jobs as part of the team. The issue needs to be addressed.

DirtyDan · 05-09-2011 05:20 AM

I fail to see this as a problem. Ill/Rad is not a mass enemy controller. It is a single target damage and debuff powerhouse. If a League tries to treat you as such, tell them to treat you like a blaster. That said, even before i got my T3 incarnate powers, I was doing enough damage to take care of the minions that spawn at a door by spamming PA, Spectral Terror and Fireball.

streetlight · 05-09-2011 03:52 PM

First, it's one part of one trial that can be handled adequately even by a melee-heavy group by defending chokepoints, rather than spawnpoints. An Ill/Rad placed the same way should work admirably well.

Second, Ill/* has some exceptional characteristics that other control sets just don't get or don't get in anywhere near the same capacity. Tons of pets, some of which fly. Better aggro management. Difficult-to-resist controls (also from pets). Confuse. Great invisibility. It is an incredible set that just happens to be weak to what is essentially a cat herding exercise.

Third, */Rad is a great debuffing set for taking down difficult targets, but not so great outside of that. You want to excel on at BAF cat-herding? Go */FF and turn on Force Bubble in the middle of a pathway. You want to solo GMs and AVs? Go */Rad.

So part of it is choice, part of it is powerset tradeoff, and part of it is tactics.

MrLiberty · 05-09-2011 05:28 PM

Here is the thing.... Ill/Rad isn't weak for the Prisoner Portion of the trial. The way "yours" (and I don't mean this as a personal statement) is built makes it weak.

If you were to go Ill/Rad/Ice With Say the Reactive 75% DoT from Interface and Ageless Destiny, Choking Cloud, Ice Storm, Lingering Rad, EM Pulse, Flash, with a Near Perma PA, Phantasm, and some nice Lore pets I imagine you could get very close to solo maintaining a door. With maybe 1 or 2 LT's breaking through (which you should be able to DPS between the quick chain of Blind/Spec Wounds/Ice blast)

Will you be as good as say a Plant/Storm/Ice keeping the door Perma Sleet'ed, Creeper'ed and Ice Stormed, with 2 LStorms and 2 Tornadoes shredding foes before they can even start? No. But You'll definitely be more than useful for this phase of the trial.

Local_Man · 05-10-2011 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrLiberty

Here is the thing.... Ill/Rad isn't weak for the Prisoner Portion of the trial. The way "yours" (and I don't mean this as a personal statement) is built makes it weak.

If you were to go Ill/Rad/Ice With Say the Reactive 75% DoT from Interface and Ageless Destiny, Choking Cloud, Ice Storm, Lingering Rad, EM Pulse, Flash, with a Near Perma PA, Phantasm, and some nice Lore pets I imagine you could get very close to solo maintaining a door. With maybe 1 or 2 LT's breaking through (which you should be able to DPS between the quick chain of Blind/Spec Wounds/Ice blast)

Will you be as good as say a Plant/Storm/Ice keeping the door Perma Sleet'ed, Creeper'ed and Ice Stormed, with 2 LStorms and 2 Tornadoes shredding foes before they can even start? No. But You'll definitely be more than useful for this phase of the trial.

The point of the original post was to point out that Illusion Control is weaker than other control sets for the Prisoner part of the BAF trial. It seems that this part of the trial was designed, intentionally or unintensionally, to make Illusion's crowd control tools useless. Yes, by re-making your build specifically for a trial where Confuse, Fear and Distraction are useless, you can improve your performance. But I don't want to have drop a build that is fully effective in the rest of the game and make a specific build just for this part of this one trial.

Besides, if you have all the Tier 4 enhancements in the 4 slots . . . why are you still doing the trials? When I first made this thread, most people didn't have all that stuff yet.

I've found a way to adjust. I use Flash and EM Pulse as much as possible. Ling Rad helps a little bit. Phantom Army and Phantasm contribute damage. And if I focus on spreading Blind around to the Minions as much as possible, I can stop a decent number of them . . . but every other Controller primary can do more to control the running minions. I have to remind BAF leaders that my Illusion controllers will not be able to handle one of the doors solo.

While my Ill/Rad now has Tier 3 in all four slots (with a tier 4 in Alpha), he has yet to have drop a single Very Rare componant.

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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

Oedipus_Tex · 05-10-2011 06:02 AM

Quote:

It is as if the devs have taken a boom stick to this particular set.

IMO not a big enough one. Illusion Control is still a cheese fest. I wish they'd just get on with nerfing the thing rather than have their hands tied in every new piece of content with having to deal with the invincible pet/control that ignores all limitations of both pets and controls, and has turned a subset of the "lowest damage AT" into one of the single best at killing big game enemies.

[You will note that all 7 of the other control sets were addressed very directly by having raid bosses simply be immune to controls.]

Local_Man · 05-10-2011 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex

IMO not a big enough one. Illusion Control is still a cheese fest. I wish they'd just get on with nerfing the thing rather than have their hands tied in every new piece of content with having to deal with the invincible pet/control that ignores all limitations of both pets and controls, and has turned a subset of the "lowest damage AT" into one of the single best at killing big game enemies.

You're just jealous . . .

There's no question that Illusion excels at certain things. But there are some significant trade-offs it makes, too -- limited AoE control, limited AoE damage. Calling for a nerf to Illusion because it does some things well . . . wouldn't that merit a nerf to Fire/Fire Brutes and Fire/Kin Controllers because they do AoE so well? And Robots/Traps MMs because they softcap with SOs alone?

When an Illusion controller solo's an AV, it is able to do so because if its unique type of distraction control . . . not because it has a huge output of damage -- it takes a LONG time to take down that AV. It provides certain benefits to teams . . . but other builds can do more to help the team wipe out foes faster. My Elec/Shield Scrapper will do a heck of a lot more to help a team wipe out most TFs faster than my Ill/Rad.

The concept of an Illusionist is great . . . he is able to create illusionary allies that can't be damaged because they aren't really there. And the concept has been in the game since the beginning. It is fairly easy to overcome the limitations of an Illusionist . . . large numbers of foes, ambushes, foes who see through stealth, etc. I don't think the Devs have a problem designing around Illusion Control.

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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

Dechs Kaison · 05-10-2011 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Local_Man

And Robots/Traps MMs because they softcap with SOs alone?

... and solo x8 maps on SOs alone.
... and solo AVs on SOs alone.
... and solo some GMs on SOs alone.
... and excel at single target damage output.
... and excel at AoE damage output.
... and excel at survivability.
... and the primary aggro control role of a team.
... and act as the primary buff and debuff roles for a team.
... and do all that with the same build.

Sorry for the distraction. I now return you to your previously scheduled thread.

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_Malk_ · 05-10-2011 08:58 AM

Quick question (not to try and derail this thread):

Is it illusion trollers generally that are having these problems, or is it specifically illusion/rad? I'm about to start doing the trials with my illusion/storm troller, and a lot of people I run with actually seem fairly excited about my character getting into it.

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Local_Man · 05-10-2011 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Malk_

Quick question (not to try and derail this thread):

Is it illusion trollers generally that are having these problems, or is it specifically illusion/rad? I'm about to start doing the trials with my illusion/storm troller, and a lot of people I run with actually seem fairly excited about my character getting into it.

Storm and Trick Arrow have a few additional control powers to make it a little bit different for them. Storm has Snow Storm to slow, Thunderclap for stun, Gale and Hurricane for knockback/repel, and Lightning Storm and Tornado for some chaotic damage. Thunderclap in particular will be useful since it recharges quickly. Trick Arrow has Glue Arrow, Entangle Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow (sleep) Oil Slick and EM Pulse Arrows.

Illusion paired with Rad, Cold, Emp, Kin (other than maybe Repel, which almost nobody takes), Therm are all in mostly the same boat -- Rad, Cold and to a lesser degree, Kin have slows but that's it. Rad could use Choking Cloud, but very few Ill/Rad's take it. FF (Force Bolt, Force Bubble, Repulsion Bomb?) and Sonic (Liquify?) have a few tools that might be marginally useful.

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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

MrLiberty · 05-10-2011 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Local_Man

The point of the original post was to point out that Illusion Control is weaker than other control sets for the Prisoner part of the BAF trial. It seems that this part of the trial was designed, intentionally or unintentionally, to make Illusion's crowd control tools useless. Yes, by re-making your build specifically for a trial where Confuse, Fear and Distraction are useless, you can improve your performance. But I don't want to have drop a build that is fully effective in the rest of the game and make a specific build just for this part of this one trial.

Like others have said, Illusion excels at using other forms of distraction effectively in 99.9% of the game. For this .1% One *Phase* of one trial, it would have benefited you to invest in hard controls and location based powers. So the option is there, you just don't want to take it in favor of sticking with your build as is.

That is pretty much the same as saying "My Buff Bot Emp/Archery doesn't do enough damage solo. I took all the empathy powers, medicine, and snap shot. But I don't want to change my build."

The even sillier part is... your build does a fair amount of damage, and in the end I think every trial I've been on has used defeating the prisoners as the way to get past it. (I've seen a few try to use sleeps to clog the doors and keep things from spawning once a certain amount are there) So what is the big deal? You play more of a MM for this one phase of the trial, and try to do as much damage as possible as they try to escape.

Local_Man · 05-10-2011 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrLiberty

Like others have said, Illusion excels at using other forms of distraction effectively in 99.9% of the game. For this .1% One *Phase* of one trial, it would have benefited you to invest in hard controls and location based powers. So the option is there, you just don't want to take it in favor of sticking with your build as is.

That is pretty much the same as saying "My Buff Bot Emp/Archery doesn't do enough damage solo. I took all the empathy powers, medicine, and snap shot. But I don't want to change my build."

The even sillier part is... your build does a fair amount of damage, and in the end I think every trial I've been on has used defeating the prisoners as the way to get past it. (I've seen a few try to use sleeps to clog the doors and keep things from spawning once a certain amount are there) So what is the big deal? You play more of a MM for this one phase of the trial, and try to do as much damage as possible as they try to escape.

Your comparison is a bit off. An all-emp, no attacks build is gimped in the rest of the game, too. My Ill/Rad build uses the most effective powers for an Ill/Rad . . . a build that is very effective in the rest of the game. This part of this one trial has a unique mechanic that makes Illusion's AoE control ineffective, but all other controllers remain effective. I already have Flash, Ling Rad and EM Pulse. The only way to improve my performance on this one part of a trial would be to make a less effective build (adding Choking Cloud, which isn't very good with an Ill/Rad, and dedicating 5-6 slots to it). And that improvement wouldn't be all that significant. (I have a fair amount of experience with Choking Cloud -- it needs some kind of secondary control to make it effective.)

The point is that this part of the trial made Illusion ineffective AS A CONTROLLER, when other controllers continue to be effective. Since the BAF is the main way to unlock two of the Incarnate slots, being ineffective as a controller has an impact. Yes, I understand that my best option is to simply act like a weak blaster with pets during this part of the trial. I have run it plenty on my Ill/Rad, and also on my Ill/Cold and Ill/TA. I also know that the trial is unlikely to change -- Illusion is so effective in most of the game that some people feel that a small disadvantage in this one place is merited. But League and Team leaders should understand that an Illusion controller, during this phase, won't be very effective as a controller.

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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

MaHaBone23 · 05-11-2011 06:02 AM

Wow. What a... strange thread this is. I'm not even completely sure what you people are arguing about.

Is this supposed to be a plea to the devs to let Ill/Rads shine more on the BAF escapee phase, or a call for awareness to the CoX community at large, that Ill/Rads won't be rocking socks as usual during the escapee phase?

If its the former, well, get over it.

If its the latter, see above.

Let me share with you my one nugget of insight from the escapee phase; unless you are grossly out of position or warming the pavement, no one really notices what you're doing.

The escapee phase is a hectic 5 minutes, and most, if not all players are scrambling to dish out everything they can. No one has the time to observe you in action and take notes on how effective or ineffective you are.

Do what you can. Buff your teammates. Take out the runners. 1/20 is just as good as 19/20, and you really have to pooch it something serious to let all 20 out.

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MentalMaden · 05-11-2011 06:42 AM

I think many in this thread (this isn't pointed at anyone in particular) are taking an observational post and interpreting it as "DOOOOM! The devs hate Illusion! Whaaaaaaaah! Nerf!" etc etc. Local is just pointing out something that should be pretty obvious to anyone playing controllers. So put your pitchforks away people, it's O-K.

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Ryo_Takenoko · 05-11-2011 07:01 AM

Once my ill/rad got his level shifts, and went Reactive for fire DOT, he does quite well with the prisoners. I can understand your frustration in the beginning without the level shifts, but at this point in time I would say there is nothing that causes my ill/rad to weep on a Lambda or BAF. Phantom + decoys + phantom army + 2 Lore pets equals lots of dead prisoners. Are you still doing door defense? Take your ill/rad into one of the zone defense spots.

They are tough on all ATs in the beginning. I find it more annoying when i did it with my stalker and brute than when i used my ill/rad.

Obitus · 05-11-2011 09:31 AM

The trials are designed to exploit builds' weaknesses, but also to emphasize their strengths. Passive mitigation (DEF/RES) is very heavily penalized by the turrets in BAF, the ridiculous self buffs of the 9CUS, and potentially by the overlapping buffs from Battle Orbs in Lambda (along with a preponderance of psi damage and the hilarious annoyance of PBAoE Drain Psyche flying all over the place). Also, the blue patches o' doom in Apex.

Control is favored heavily against the 9CUs and against just about everything in Lambda. It's penalized against the AVs and the escapees. By the same token, aggro control is penalized against the BAF AVs, and invalidated against the BAF escapees.

That's just the way the trials roll, and frankly I think it's a good thing. Mind Control is arguably the most heavily penalized control set in the escapee phase, for instance (you can harp on Mass Hypnosis all you want, but in a phase where your league is trying to kill everything as fast as possible, a sleep ain't exactly the most useful thing in the world) -- but it's also perhaps uniquely well-suited for the sabotage phase of Lambda. (Aggro-less control FTW.) Confusion is useless against the escapees, but hilarious against 9CUs or Battle Orbs.

Fear also works quite well, perhaps unusually well, in Lambda (because during the sabotage phase you're probably not going to be attacking the feared targets to allow them to retaliate).

I don't think the complaint in the OP is unreasonable or unreasoned. I do believe that it's unwarranted, though. Just about every character build has reason to complain that this-or-that segment of the trials marginalizes their schtick, whatever that schtick may be. The fact that the OP's complaint happens to center around what is probably the most infamously overpowered powerset combination in the entire game is fuel for the fire, but ultimately irrelevant.

(Whether Ill/Rad is overpowered in any meaningful way is another question; personally I don't think the ability to solo AVs is as important as it's often made out to be on the forums. And though Phantom Army is flat-out uber in certain situations, it's also far less efficient than a hard AoE control in most generic content. YMMV.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze

Nice build

Deus_Otiosus · 05-11-2011 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Local_Man

Where this Trial is unique is that all other Controllers other than Illusion have powers beyond the single target and AoE holds that can control the minions. Only Illusion is unable to apply other control powers because Illusion's other control powers have been made invalid by the systems of the mission.

Only Illusion gets to have invincible pets that can be made perma.

Sometimes there is a price to be paid for something that is both high value, and extremely unique.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obitus

Just about every character build has reason to complain that this-or-that segment of the trials marginalizes their schtick, whatever that schtick may be. The fact that the OP's complaint happens to center around what is probably the most infamously overpowered powerset combination in the entire game is fuel for the fire, but ultimately irrelevant.

I Agree.

Oedipus_Tex · 05-11-2011 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obitus

The trials are designed to exploit builds' weaknesses, but also to emphasize their strengths. Passive mitigation (DEF/RES) is very heavily penalized by the turrets in BAF, the ridiculous self buffs of the 9CUS, and potentially by the overlapping buffs from Battle Orbs in Lambda (along with a preponderance of psi damage and the hilarious annoyance of PBAoE Drain Psyche flying all over the place). Also, the blue patches o' doom in Apex.

Control is favored heavily against the 9CUs and against just about everything in Lambda. It's penalized against the AVs and the escapees. By the same token, aggro control is penalized against the BAF AVs, and invalidated against the BAF escapees.

That's just the way the trials roll, and frankly I think it's a good thing. Mind Control is arguably the most heavily penalized control set in the escapee phase, for instance (you can harp on Mass Hypnosis all you want, but in a phase where your league is trying to kill everything as fast as possible, a sleep ain't exactly the most useful thing in the world) -- but it's also perhaps uniquely well-suited for the sabotage phase of Lambda. (Aggro-less control FTW.) Confusion is useless against the escapees, but hilarious against 9CUs or Battle Orbs.

Fear also works quite well, perhaps unusually well, in Lambda (because during the sabotage phase you're probably not going to be attacking the feared targets to allow them to retaliate).

I don't think the complaint in the OP is unreasonable or unreasoned. I do believe that it's unwarranted, though. Just about every character build has reason to complain that this-or-that segment of the trials marginalizes their schtick, whatever that schtick may be. The fact that the OP's complaint happens to center around what is probably the most infamously overpowered powerset combination in the entire game is fuel for the fire, but ultimately irrelevant.

(Whether Ill/Rad is overpowered in any meaningful way is another question; personally I don't think the ability to solo AVs is as important as it's often made out to be on the forums. And though Phantom Army is flat-out uber in certain situations, it's also far less efficient than a hard AoE control in most generic content. YMMV.)

Unfortunately throughout most of the BAF the enemy ambushes are all bosses. This, on top of the very low damage most Controllers do outside of Containment, puts most of them waaaaay behind Dominators in the control arena.* Ice and Earth probably do the best on Controllers but that isn't saying much.

[*EDIT: Assuming they are perma-doms. Normal Dominators could well end up even worse than a Controller, because you don't get a support secondary to make you more than just a gimp Blaster if Domination falters and the mobs are all bosses. Dominators who die a lot are kind of in the same position.]

Controller's still aren't useless, because of their buff secondary, but they are at a huge disadvantage relative to their normal power through most of the BAF. And Dominators absolutely destroy Controllers during the escapee phase because they can actually kill the leiutenants, in part because they aren't fighting at half normal damage capability due to lacking Containment. IMO, Illusion Control isn't even in the running for most disadvantaged sets. I'd give that award to Plant Control on Controllers, which is basically reduced to a creeper patch and some immob powers that can snag minions someone else could probably kill anyway.

[Plant Control on Dominators does a bit better if they are perma doms, although I am still curious how badly confusion impacts iXP. In the normal game I wouldn't care, but in this situation, it seems to matter a lot more.]

streetlight · 05-11-2011 10:32 AM

If someone chooses not to take the powers that would be helpful, then that's their choice. The most useful powers in Controller secondaries for the BAF escape are...

Cold: Snow Storm, Sleet
FF: Force Bubble or Repulsion Field
Kinetics: Repel
Rad: Choking Cloud
Sonic: Sonic Repulsion
Storm: Hurricane, Tornado, Lightning Storm, Gale, Snow Storm, Freezing Rain
TA: Entangling Arrow, Glue Arrow, Ice Arrow, PGA, Oil Slick Arrow

That's not exactly a slim list and a lot of those will completely shut down minions. Only two sets have no real capabilities here - Thermal and Empathy - but even they can buff teammates and pets so that lieuts drop faster. The best secondaries for this are FF, Storm and TA, which also happen to offer the best control (in this case, mostly through KB).

On primaries, if you choose the set with the weakest holds & immobs, then you shouldn't expect to compete in a scenario where holds & immobs are more helpful. There are tradeoffs for all the benefits that Illusion gives and this is one of them.

Local_Man · 05-11-2011 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obitus

The trials are designed to exploit builds' weaknesses, but also to emphasize their strengths. Passive mitigation (DEF/RES) is very heavily penalized by the turrets in BAF, the ridiculous self buffs of the 9CUS, and potentially by the overlapping buffs from Battle Orbs in Lambda (along with a preponderance of psi damage and the hilarious annoyance of PBAoE Drain Psyche flying all over the place). Also, the blue patches o' doom in Apex.

Control is favored heavily against the 9CUs and against just about everything in Lambda. It's penalized against the AVs and the escapees. By the same token, aggro control is penalized against the BAF AVs, and invalidated against the BAF escapees.

That's just the way the trials roll, and frankly I think it's a good thing. Mind Control is arguably the most heavily penalized control set in the escapee phase, for instance (you can harp on Mass Hypnosis all you want, but in a phase where your league is trying to kill everything as fast as possible, a sleep ain't exactly the most useful thing in the world) -- but it's also perhaps uniquely well-suited for the sabotage phase of Lambda. (Aggro-less control FTW.) Confusion is useless against the escapees, but hilarious against 9CUs or Battle Orbs.

Fear also works quite well, perhaps unusually well, in Lambda (because during the sabotage phase you're probably not going to be attacking the feared targets to allow them to retaliate).

I don't think the complaint in the OP is unreasonable or unreasoned. I do believe that it's unwarranted, though. Just about every character build has reason to complain that this-or-that segment of the trials marginalizes their schtick, whatever that schtick may be. The fact that the OP's complaint happens to center around what is probably the most infamously overpowered powerset combination in the entire game is fuel for the fire, but ultimately irrelevant.

(Whether Ill/Rad is overpowered in any meaningful way is another question; personally I don't think the ability to solo AVs is as important as it's often made out to be on the forums. And though Phantom Army is flat-out uber in certain situations, it's also far less efficient than a hard AoE control in most generic content. YMMV.)

Obitus, I thought this was a very good and fair comment. When I started this thread, I was frustrated that my favorite character appeared to have been singled out for unfair treatment, especially since the Trial was needed to get two Incarnate slots. AoE Immob powers are just as good as a hold during the prisoner section of the BAF -- the AoE Immob can group up minions for easy disposal by teammates with AoE damage while the other teammates can chase down the remaining lieutenants. Of the eight controller primaries, only Illusion and Mind lack AoE Immobs, and Mind at least has an AoE Sleep that recharges moderately quickly. So I was disappointed that my favorite character seemed unfairly singled out.

Now that I have run the Trials a bunch of times, I've gotten over it. It is what it is. The main reason I kept responding in this thread was to help folks understand that Illusion controllers are less effective at crowd control than other controllers in this part of the trial, even though they are still quite effective in other parts of the trial.

LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

Local_Man · 05-11-2011 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by streetlight

If someone chooses not to take the powers that would be helpful, then that's their choice. The most useful powers in Controller secondaries for the BAF escape are...

Cold: Snow Storm, Sleet
FF: Force Bubble or Repulsion Field
Kinetics: Repel
Rad: Choking Cloud
Sonic: Sonic Repulsion
Storm: Hurricane, Tornado, Lightning Storm, Gale, Snow Storm, Freezing Rain
TA: Entangling Arrow, Glue Arrow, Ice Arrow, PGA, Oil Slick Arrow

That's not exactly a slim list and a lot of those will completely shut down minions. Only two sets have no real capabilities here - Thermal and Empathy - but even they can buff teammates and pets so that lieuts drop faster. The best secondaries for this are FF, Storm and TA, which also happen to offer the best control (in this case, mostly through KB).

On primaries, if you choose the set with the weakest holds & immobs, then you shouldn't expect to compete in a scenario where holds & immobs are more helpful. There are tradeoffs for all the benefits that Illusion gives and this is one of them.

Frankly, Choking Cloud on its own is not very effective. It pulses every 5 seconds, does a ToHit check and then has only a 50% chance to hold a minion. 5 seconds is plenty of time for those patients to run out of range of the power. Realistically, it will probably only affect maybe 1 out of every 4 or 5 minions in this trial. Add a toggle slow power (Hot Feet or Arctic Air) or a patch slow (Quicksand) or sleep (Static Field), and the chance of Choking Cloud catching minions running by are much better . . . but all of those sets also have AoE Immob powers that recharge quickly.

LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

Teeto_K · 05-11-2011 03:23 PM

Never mind the consequences of standing in melee range of a tight cluster of those minions for long enough to get choking cloud to tick and hit any of them. Their confuse aura means you're more likely to score a hold on your teamates or Phantasm than on them.

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ketch · 05-11-2011 03:24 PM

You know, despite this part of the trial's "emphasis" on control, I find most leagues would do just as well with little control at all. In fact, at times it's more counter productive than anything, trapping some mobs here while the next group runs there. Slow patches, knockdown patches, and placeable mezzes seem to serve the best for creating nice clusters at the choke points; at which point AoE damage becomes the most important element as the league attempts to mow down minions and lieutenants alike.