The endgame grind, perceived or reality?

Did it?

Let's look at it, shall we?

i10 had:

4 story arcs, 1 repeatable contact, 1 TF, 1 zone raid. random zone invasions.

i20 has (last we've heard): 2 TFs, 2 Trial/Raids, 4 more pieces of a brand new method of advancement. It also has the addition of a method of starting said trial/raids without having to organize them a week in advance (which seems like it would be nice fro more casual players)

I don't think it's at all accurate to say i10 had more content. Maybe it had content you liked better, but it didn't have more of it.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

It's not a question of creating enough content to meet or exceed everything that came before by sheer bulk. It's a question of providing enough for players to not need to repeat any one task more than twice, at most, to get progress in the game. I COULD run nothing but ITFs from 35 to 50, but I don't have to. I could run missions and story arcs, instead, and those do not repeat.

That's pretty much where I stand for. Once upon a time, people complained that there was nothing to do at level 50. And I was one of them. The eponymous Samuel Tow has done every arc and every mission available to him (without exemplaring), so the only thing left for him to do is run that same content again. Why, I ask, would I replay the same content with the same character when I could replay the same content with a different character and get at least some measure of variety?

We wanted more things to do at level 50, and more things to do at level 50 is precisely what the Incarnate system is not. It's like coming out with a 100 new badges for 45-50 story arcs, 40-50 enemy kill counts, exploration and so forth and announcing "Here. Now you have something new to do." No, I don't. I have the same things to do that I've always had, they just give different rewards now. But it doesn't matter if you give me money, merits or spider scout cookies, it's still the same content with still the same experiences and, worst of all, with still the same characters.

This is by far my BIGGEST fear not just about Incarnates, but about raid grind in general. Already I'm being told (in a delightfully condescending tone, no less) that it's foolish to expect to make more than a couple of characters Incarnate. Why? No game has enough content to keep me chugging for five years, but a game CAN have enough content to keep me indefinitely if I have enough characters I want to replay with with, with each character being a different experience.

"Altitis" is one of City of Heroes greatest sources of revenue, I would think, considering how many of us it has kept coming back year after year because "I just had the best idea for a new character!" Having something for level 50 players to do is great (if it were actually true), but I'm not sure it's a good idea to do so at the expense of people's motivation to make dozens of alts.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Cherry picking doesn't really make your case. In terms of content, Issue 20 is well in the middle. There are several issues: 4, 6, 7 (for heroes), 8 (for villains), 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 that had demonstrably less content than Issue 20.

Many of the remaining Issues are comparable in content. Issue 10, 11, 19 for example.

You may not enjoy the trials. Again, no one can really change your opinion on that and I'm not trying to, but it's simply wrong to say that Issue 20 is content light. There might not be content you want to do. That's happened to me. For my part, there have been several Issues that I've barely bothered with.

This is precisely my own conundrum, at the moment. Perhaps for others, too. That very motivation is dwindling - almost gone; and you know me more than most - I am.... was.... an altohoic extraordinaire!

But I've done it for so long that I've simply run out of things to goad me into making more. The old sets are still mostly the same as they've been for years (the changes to Fire Armor got me to make another one at last; and more of that would be wonderful), and the two 'new' sets in I18 wore themselves out by the time I19 hit. There isn't a single combination in any AT that I would want to do (I can never do Stone Armor - obscures the character too much) that I havn't done one or twice already. The task-forces are mostly the same (more Posi-style revamps, please?) - and the story arcs are as awful as they've always been (Lookin' at you, Hero-side!).

Praetoria was a wonderful thing... for a week or two. It fell flat the instant I hit 20 for the first time and left all that grand and entertaining new content only to realize that the next 30 levels were going to be exactly as they've always been. Nothing I had spent the last 20 levels doing was going to change anything (except, perhaps, a line or two of dialogue in -all- the content; plus the McIntyre revamp); nor was it going to be revisited (until, perhaps, the Trials - which appear to be just the same regardless of where you're from). Unless I wanted to spend the rest of my time retiring characters at 20, it really didn't mean anything in the bigger scheme of things.

So, when the Incarnate system is done and finished - when we've had all our Issues focused around just that - when I've hit the top and gotten everything I want from every Slot... I worry that I'll have nothing to do but look at the creator screen, realize that my existing characters can go no further; and that there's still nothing new for new ones, and say 'Nah.'

Whether I like the trials or not is irrelevant. The complaint in this thread is that the new Incarnate slots require repeating the trials many times. I like the ITF but I wouldn't want to have to level from 35 to 50 running only ITFs.

There is no 'complaint in this thread.' The thread was an inquiry to the players as to whether or not they feel there's an upcoming grind ahead. After having played WoW (also known as the DEVIL) for two years and running raid after raid after raid after raid to get what I want (see: 202 runs through MC just to get my Might gear back before Burning Crusade pissed all over raiding guilds with the Arena system) I can safely say I will NOT find the new trials to be a grind. If they really will take about an hour, then bring it. I can manage something like that. Screw these 4-hours-a-night-5-nights-a-week raids in other games.

Oh, I entirely understand what you're saying.
Perhaps it wasn't clear, but the bit you quoted of my post was actually aimed at the people criticizing the critics by suggesting that it was not possible for the Devs to roll out the End Game system with enough content to satisfy the players' needs for end game content.
That is what I think is silly argument. The point is that they could have involved already-existing content more... at least until more new content was added.

My main point is that (while this does not address your desire for truly new content) including all of the ongoing content we already have for 50s (and, admittedly, lower level characters) to do (Giant Monsters, Zone Events, Hami, Mother Ship Raid, high-level TFs, high level story arcs...) should have been a bigger part to the new advancement system so that we would not only be left with running the same two new trials over and over.

It is cool that these things are included at all (I thought it was a great aspect of the Alpha Slot, and what I thought would be part of the whole Incarnate System), via shard conversion... But, while it was already a slow path for the Alpha Slot, it looks to be a rather arduous path for the rest of the slots.

I suppose it is a difference of expectations/intents/designs...
From the tiny glimpses we had, I figured that the End Game System was more about new character advancements... and, while there'd be completely new content for it, it would also include all that we already had to do.

Admittedly, I was never one that felt like there was nothing to do at 50.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Hehe, you have to understand that, as a player who never ever would have touched such a game that involves such content... our personal definitions of "grindy" will be very different.
Of course, no one's opinion is any greater or lesser than another's.

For the most part (as there are always great extremes on all sides of things), I don't think the issues are as much about a 1 hour endeavor.
Just, simply, that there are only those two endeavors that will need to be repeated a number of times for advancement.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Of course, but we know right this second that that is a temporary condition. The developers have already announced two additional trials. We only get Alpha components from five tasks: ITF, LGTF, 5th Column TF/SF, STF/LRSF, CoP. The raids (Hami and RWZ) give things that can turn into components. Realistically not too many people are doing the CoP raid, most everyone I know just converts those components. Yes, there are only two trials. But that's going to improve with the announced Keyes and Underground trials and whatever else comes after. The devs are obviously giving the trials a window of exclusivity so that everyone gets a chance to experience them and experience new more strategic encounters. I suspect that very good ideas like the challenge mode TFs will come, but that's not something the devs can do in time for Issue 20.

In addition, there's no actual requirement that a person only grind those two trials. A player who groups often will easily be converting shards into threads on a daily basis, making it easy to build up to uncommons in the higher ranks. Using other tasks and the up-conversion to supplement your rewards from the trials can very easily break up the grind.

Lastly, it's only a grind if you let it be. When you just play and not focus on the rewards, then it's likely to be a lot more enjoyable journey to becoming a mighty Incarnate.

Funny, cause I have a Blaster who got her Uncommon Alpha by going from Vigilante to Villain, running a Patron arc, and going back to Hero. Unless the aspartame in this Diet Coke I'm drinking is seriously rotting my brain, that trip....didn't involve any of those five tasks.

Shards aren't components. Components come from the tasks I listed above. Shards drop, of course, from any level 50+ enemy. Since shards up-convert to threads, that same Blaster could earn a common or uncommon Interface, Destiny, Judgment or Lore power the same way. May take more shards and it will take influence, but it's possible.

Respectfully, it seems at this point, you just want to be angry about this. It's clear there will be more than two tasks that drop components. It's equally clear that, despite the claims, one doesn't have to grind these two tasks alone since you get a few threads from Apex and Tin Mage and have the conversion from shards available. Nevertheless you keep claiming the opposite. Why is that?

Oh, absolutely. That's basically my M O (And why I don't have any tier 4 Alphas yet). I plan to just do what I do and those things will come as they come. Although, I may actually enjoy the Trials, so the rewards may be coming faster than otherwise.


And yeah, we know the only two trials is only temporary.
However, it is likely that that temporary state will be a few months.
For that time, it is what it is.

The Electric-Knight ______ Malfaz _____ Zox'Oculox

@Zethustra

"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan

www.pauldamonthomas.com - Original Music

Because. It. Takes. A. Stupid. Amount. Of. Shards. To. Accomplish. Anything. Beyond. Alpha. The alternative is running the same two trials over and over.

I don't see how I can make it any clearer than that.

You could just run the two existing Trials a few times until the novelty wears off, and then go back to switching sides or playing TFs or whatever else you like (at any level!), converting the Shards into Threads, and waiting for more new Incarnate Content whenever they get around to releasing it.

Oh, wait. But then you'll be getting your Incarnate powers slower than people who enjoy playing the two Trials a lot, and that's simply unacceptable.

Going from Vigilante to Villain, then back to Hero again, you say? Unless I am very much mistaken, that would have taken you a minimum of 8 days. There was a thread on these forums where people were reporting getting their Alpha Uncommons within *hours* of I19 going live.

Clearly this trend of "you still get progress on your Incarnate abilities outside the designated tasks but it's much slower" is a completely new and surprising thing.

Based on what we know, that isn't realistic. The best way I can explain it is that you can casually pick up Alpha slot all the way to very rare in a few months. But more than likely you can't pick up the other incarnate slots by playing casually in a few months.

The gulf between Alpha and the rest of the slots in terms of time investment is huge.

You are assuming that a very rare Alpha gives you the same amount of bonuses as a very rare of the other slots and thus should entail the same amount of work.

maybe I haven't read this correctly. I did the first 12 and I think there is another layer but they only require notices and some incarnate components. Are you talking about the new slots(Gravitic, Judgement, etc?) I'm halfway through the tier 2 alphas now playing weekly with 1 weekend a month dedicated to CoH. I have changed my strategy though, I'm not trying to get all the slots because you can shortcut and get to the top with less steps on tier two. Frankly because of the notices, I can't really see past the tier 2 right now. I think by the end of May I'll have enough shards but the notices I won't have until July/Aug. The notices and favors are my bottleneck right now. The shards I could brute force if I had to.

I just took my last character from 35-50 running nothing but ITFs the week it was the WST.

I will happily do the ITF again, anytime.

As I have posted many times recently, I just like killing bad guys. Personally, I do not focus on the rewards I am gaining while doing so, no do I focus overtly on the enemies I fight, although I do avoid a few enemy groups depending upon the weaknesses of the character and/or team.

The entire idea of 'grind' to me is actually kinda funny. I simply play the game, I get rewards, over time they add up and I get more powerful. Somehow, I call this playing the game and others call it a grind, using the term in some derogatory way, while I just have fun playing.

*shrug*

MajorPrankster likes to Grind :-)

MajorPrankster's wife would agree....

"Casual" as in "limited playtime per week/day"? "Casual" as in "unable or unwilling to team"? "Casual" as in "cannot possibly guarantee they will be available for more than one hour at a stretch, ever"? "Casual" as in "will not do anything raid-like because raids are not 'casual' "?

Ah, but you *could* have done it in a similar time by playing other content, so what you did was not a grind.