Please add Resistance to Defense Debuffs to Temperature Protection
Fiery Aura has no inherent defense, there's absolutely no reason to give it DDR. So you have trouble with Cimerorans. Eat inspirations.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
You can't expect to have an easy time tanking everything with the most offensive tanker primary.
That would be overpowered.
I recommend you build up your resists a bit. The SG base empowerment stations can give you a +5% lethal resistance buff for an hour, and there are always insps and the cardiac alpha..
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Different types of Tankers will have an easier or harder time than others on TFs.
No Tanker is expected by the Devs to run without support of others. Now I know people don't play the game as the game was intended and expect other players to defy game mechanics without them; endlessly giving their backseat driver idea of perfection; because they of course are giving it.
If for example you fail to have healing flames up in time because some Granite Brute is off somewhere with the only support, a kin for example making sure that granite brute is dam buffed at the expense of buffing the team (thus known as the brutes pocket kin or the brutes pet), thats just tough.
Cos the upshot is, the Devs are not to blame for how the game is played. A Firetank will get it if the whole of the team (includes self) is not team dynamically fit to keep the tank alive as well as everybody else.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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And you shouldn't. Fire armor is not a defense-based set. And I'm not just saying, "It doesn't make sense for fire armor to have def debuff resistance." (Which it doesn't.) I'm saying that the set SHOULD NOT have it. It makes sense for it to have NONE.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Why? Because while I can add Defense to my tank and I have now spent nearly a BILLION to try and make her durable - I don't have Resistance to Defense De-buffs.
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Different armor sets have different strengths. Fire is not the best set for the ITF. It's not unplayable - scrappers can tank Recluse with the right support - but it's not the best choice.
And this is as it should be. No tank should be the best at everything. A tank using Granite comes pretty close, but the price is that they suck at doing damage and even moving around.
So my vote is that fire armor should not have resistance to defense debuffs. And invuln should never get any defense or resistance to psi attacks. And so on.
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i dont think youll see anything in a buff for any tank in any of the near future...looking at the devs we have left in the company i dont think any of them actually know this forum exsists
and btw my soft capped fire/fire has no issue with an itf. clearly its your build.
While they're at it, add regen debuff resist to all regeneration powers.
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heh. I actually got into a discussion with F.Grubb last year about why the Regeneration Set didn't offer any Regen Debuff Resistance. As far as I'm aware the set is under consideration for that change, but I think F.Grubb left the final decision up to Synapse and Black Scorpion.|
Originally Posted by Elfis_Presley
While they're at it, add regen debuff resist to all regeneration powers.
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As to the OP's suggestions... um. Okay. I am one of the one's who suggested adding DDR to the Dark Armor set. I based that request on the inclusion of a Defense power, specifically Cloak of Darkness, to the Dark Armor Set. The lack of DDR and Cloak of Darkness's low defense rating made that tiny bit of defense pretty much... pointless.
I also understand why the developers said NO to that request. The Dark Armor set was not based around a defensive play-style. The Dark Armor set was designed as a Resistance Set.
For the same reason, you are not going to get DDR on a Fire Tank. The set is designed to be Resistance Base. Like the other Resistance Armors in the game, Fire makes some trade-offs on the concept of survivability.
Dark Armor, for example, has both a constant Stun Point-Blank Area of Effect power and a Constant Fear Point-Blank Area of Effect power. While these power's do make traditional tanking difficult... if not impossible, they give Dark Armor a different sort of survivability.
Electric Armor, for example, has both a combination regeneration / heal / endurance reduction power and an endurance drain power. These powers give Electric Armor some of the best endurance management in the game, as well as a powerful mob-debuff.
Fire Armor, by those same tokens, trades off taking damage for giving damage. It's own point blank area of affect attack, Blazing Aura, does more damage than all other point blank area of effect attacks. Fire Armor also gets a superior point blank area of effect attack in Burn. While Fire Armor is not the only set with a self-revive power, Rise of the Phoenix contains a damage component, a knockback component, and a stun component.
This fundamental shift in how a set plays is something that the player themselves have to figure out how to work with. Resistance based sets such as Fire, Dark, and Electric Armor are not supposed to sit in the middle of mobs and wait out indefinite amounts of incoming damage. Resistance based sets are, by and large, designed to DO SOMETHING.
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I'm curious. What is it about these powers that make traditional tanking difficult?
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Dark Armor, for example, has both a constant Stun Point-Blank Area of Effect power and a Constant Fear Point-Blank Area of Effect power. While these power's do make traditional tanking difficult... if not impossible, they give Dark Armor a different sort of survivability.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Well, my defense-built Fire/Fire/Pyre had no trouble at all tanking the ITF twice this week when I had the team with me. When I soloed large mobs during the "mop up for shards" phase, I DID have problems several times and had to run away (note it's feasible to run away when solo, I admit it's less tankly to run away if ditching teammates :P)
In a bizarre incident, the rest of the team went down (Scrapper-heavy, aggro-stealing team) in defeat during the huge ambush of Dark Novas and stuff when freeing the Oracle...but my Tanker stood up to it and at one point was fighting everything solo, defense debuffers and negative-energy enemies combined. I was pretty surprised and I'm not sure why she did so well there. I don't remeber much pressure to hit my heal although I think I did top off a few times.
Anyway, it may come down to random luck or perhaps you had just bad team support, but my current experience is that although defense debuffs suck even for resistance sets, they're manageable with a team.
And of course the defense sets get such DDR as they do get for a good reason; are we proposing to give them something else?
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*points you to: http://zerias.blogspot.com/2010/05/d...elee-tank.html|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'm curious. What is it about these powers that make traditional tanking difficult?
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Try reading through. I took several screen-captures showing the problem with the Stun Aura.
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It's probably because of how the aggro cap works. The Nictus ambush is pure bosses and don't have defense debuffs, so they'll crowd out the defense-debuffing Roman LTs and minions. You won't be facing strong defense debuffs, your defense will be intact, and all that negative damage simply won't be hitting.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
In a bizarre incident, the rest of the team went down (Scrapper-heavy, aggro-stealing team) in defeat during the huge ambush of Dark Novas and stuff when freeing the Oracle...but my Tanker stood up to it and at one point was fighting everything solo, defense debuffers and negative-energy enemies combined. I was pretty surprised and I'm not sure why she did so well there. I don't remeber much pressure to hit my heal although I think I did top off a few times.
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I've played the set. The stun doesn't last longer than the taunt. Where's the problem again?
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Originally Posted by je_saist
*points you to: http://zerias.blogspot.com/2010/05/d...elee-tank.html
Try reading through. I took several screen-captures showing the problem with the Stun Aura. |
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
What about offereing RDR (Resistance Debuff Resistance) to some of the Res sets (like Fire/Elec)?
What would this do for the ITF for those sets? Absolutely nothing.
Against Longbow Nulifiers - HEAPS.
Sets that rely the most on Resistance would get this (like Fire/Elec) where as sets like WP/Invul which have other means of staying alive (built-in Def, High Regen) would not.
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Resist already resits resistance debuffs.
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Originally Posted by cybermitheral
What about offereing RDR (Resistance Debuff Resistance) to some of the Res sets (like Fire/Elec)?
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Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I had no idea - ill look up paragon.wiki for the details.
Thanks
This is why I have a hard time committing to a defense buffed fire tanker. just as the OP mentioned, you can spend a billion on a build and it all goes to naught with just 1 good sword swing from a roman centurion
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
In a bizarre incident, the rest of the team went down (Scrapper-heavy, aggro-stealing team) in defeat during the huge ambush of Dark Novas and stuff when freeing the Oracle...but my Tanker stood up to it and at one point was fighting everything solo, defense debuffers and negative-energy enemies combined. I was pretty surprised and I'm not sure why she did so well there. I don't remeber much pressure to hit my heal although I think I did top off a few times.
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Erm, it's aggro sharing scrapper heavy team and since you were the last one standing..perhaps you or the scrappers didn't do a good job of turning the Novas cone attacks or keep over atleast an AoEs distance away from the team. I know it, hard anyway because despite a football fields worth of clear space one side of a group someone has to hurdle over to the otherside straight into the perception range of mobs the team doesn't need right now...(and so long herd pulling was invented. I blame all the other ATs.)
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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not enough for me though, i've gotten numbers into the negatives fighting longbow |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Resist already resits resistance debuffs.
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perhaps if not adding DDR to Temperature Protection, what about Weave ? It doesnt have to be a whole lot, after all weave isn't a whole lot of defense, but perhaps it should offer debuff resistance, otherwise, yet again a power is being made totally redundant by a single round from a council minion.
Also if you are indeed building for defense, Weave is a popular option.
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Super Reflexes is currently the only defense based set that can reasonably get to the DDR cap, and that's its major selling point over other sets like Shield Defense. I would be upset if I picked SR for that reason and suddenly SD could get to the DDR cap just as easily.|
Originally Posted by kangaroo120y
not enough for me though, i've gotten numbers into the negatives fighting longbow
perhaps if not adding DDR to Temperature Protection, what about Weave ? It doesnt have to be a whole lot, after all weave isn't a whole lot of defense, but perhaps it should offer debuff resistance, otherwise, yet again a power is being made totally redundant by a single round from a council minion. Also if you are indeed building for defense, Weave is a popular option. |
Also, Weave is an amazing power already. No need to buff it further.
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Not to sound like a dink here but... 1 Billion on a Biuld really isn't all that much. Even simple sets like Obliterations or Positrons blast can cost you a good 200 mil + for 1 power sloted with them.| you can spend a billion on a build |
Fire Tanker alone could slot 3 full sets of Obliteration without touching thier secondary. ( 600 mil ish already thier).
My Fire/Ice/En Tanker had 4 Sets of Obliteration. Back when I used to play him I ran a ITF, packing only 35% S/L Def and dont recall having any issues. This was well before Incarnate.
I would add that I feel Fire above any other tanker set is biuld around the use of healing flames. Make sure its sloted well for heals and up often and use it.
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Well, yeah, but if you've built it right, you still have good resistances AND a fantastic heal -- the same things a non-defense built Fire Tanker has, and the game was designed to make THAT viable. And in 8 seconds or so, the debuff from a machine gun wears off and your defense returns. It's not that I expect the defense to be solid in all cases and that I'll never be hit, it's that, if you do it right, the defense is on top of the existing mitigation and you don't have to give up too much to get it (in my case I went with 32.5% typed; might have to give up more to get 45% positional).|
Originally Posted by kangaroo120y
This is why I have a hard time committing to a defense buffed fire tanker. just as the OP mentioned, you can spend a billion on a build and it all goes to naught with just 1 good sword swing from a roman centurion
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Erm, it's aggro sharing scrapper heavy team and since you were the last one standing..perhaps you or the scrappers didn't do a good job of turning the Novas cone attacks or keep over atleast an AoEs distance away from the team. I know it, hard anyway because despite a football fields worth of clear space one side of a group someone has to hurdle over to the otherside straight into the perception range of mobs the team doesn't need right now...(and so long herd pulling was invented. I blame all the other ATs.)
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The team recovered quickly and got back into things; I held aggro much better after that, maybe because I got the (now smaller) group of bad guys clustered tightly around me and very mad at me before the team reassembled.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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Please stop going to the old - you do more damage so it's a trade off.......no it's not.
In a good team your damage is NOTHING on a fire tank. Don't believe me? Try this next time you are rolling along on an ITF don't use Burn - just use Blazing Aura to hold aggro and taunt.
I absolutely guarantee you won't add more than 5-10 seconds on the defeat time of the group. How long does it take you to solo a Roman Boss?
Yeah the blasters and scrappers can tear him apart in seconds.
You damage is always helpful but compared to the rest of the team you are not relevant. Fire tankers are tanks. If I wanted a scrapepr or a brute I would roll one. I want to be able to survive as a TANK.
Obviously some of you are godlike as fire tanks - or read to many of your own press releases while team with cold or FF buffs. I have heard the old I farm the wall thing a million times - guess what? I will absolutely guarantee my Fire/Dark corr can out tank and out damage you on any ITF you care to run. I also can farm the wall and I herd with a twist that lets you overcome the aggro caps and slaughter 3 or more groups at once in absolute safety.
I can pull both AV's and do the computer all at once - with no trouble. You see that is my problem I KNOW what my fire/dark corr can do and it far outstrips my Fire tank and that is silly.
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"Yeah your damage isn't that great if you don't use your attacks" - Is that seriously your argument? I suppose they shouldn't use Fiery Embrace as well right?|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Please stop going to the old - you do more damage so it's a trade off.......no it's not.
In a good team your damage is NOTHING on a fire tank. Don't believe me? Try this next time you are rolling along on an ITF don't use Burn - just use Blazing Aura to hold aggro and taunt. |
Fiery Aura tankers can achieve top end scrapper levels of damage, with the right build. Don't believe me? http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...postcount=1286
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Funny, on my invuln tanker, I can get hit by Nullifer sonic grenades and a rad warden and still be resist capped against smashing and lethal - long after my other resists have plunged into the negatives. It has something to do with 90% resists resisting 90% of the debuffs.
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Originally Posted by kangaroo120y
not enough for me though, i've gotten numbers into the negatives fighting longbow
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Trying to tank the ITF has shown me that fire tanks are still paying for the halcyon years of Issue 1-4.
I was slaughtered - repeatedly - on my Fire/Kinetics tank. I made 2 runs the last 2 days and was killed a total of 9 times. I had to be saved by Scrappers.
I wasn't herding or doing anything extra-ordinary just taunt, fight and die.
Why? Because while I can add Defense to my tank and I have now spent nearly a BILLION to try and make her durable - I don't have Resistance to Defense De-buffs. Future content - does it have MORE or LESS Defense De-buffs?
I ask that since Temperature Protection is such a weak power lets throw in a debuffs resistance. I mean how long do we have to pay for 4 Issues of godliness?