Please add Resistance to Defense Debuffs to Temperature Protection
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IN a game where people have abandoned their favorite level 50s because one or two attacks had their animation times extended a bit over two seconds, 5-10 seconds sounds like an eternity to me. Don't people spend tons of Inf shaving a few tenths of a second off their recharge?|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
I absolutely guarantee you won't add more than 5-10 seconds on the defeat time of the group.
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
How long does it take you to solo a Roman Boss?
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Obviously some of you are godlike as fire tanks - or read to many of your own press releases while team with cold or FF buffs.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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Matter of opinion. My experience is that the character (properly built) does indeed waste things fast enough it provides mitigation. I've had Blasters express surprise at how fast the character can lay down the hurt.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Please stop going to the old - you do more damage so it's a trade off.......no it's not.
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The Fiery Aura set is a compromise between damage dealing and durability. As to your complaint that a tanker more specialized for durability works even better when coordinated with characters more specialized for offense -- well duh, so to speak. Is that a surprise?
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The most recent time I ran the ITF with my level 50+1 Fire/Fire tanker I did so at +2. The character is soft-capped for S/L defense. My hit points never went down and the only time I used Healing Flames was when I pressed the key by accident. Scrappers on the team got defeated but I never did.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Trying to tank the ITF has shown me that fire tanks are still paying for the halcyon years of Issue 1-4.
I was slaughtered - repeatedly - on my Fire/Kinetics tank. I made 2 runs the last 2 days and was killed a total of 9 times. I had to be saved by Scrappers. I wasn't herding or doing anything extra-ordinary just taunt, fight and die. Why? Because while I can add Defense to my tank and I have now spent nearly a BILLION to try and make her durable - I don't have Resistance to Defense De-buffs. Future content - does it have MORE or LESS Defense De-buffs? I ask that since Temperature Protection is such a weak power lets throw in a debuffs resistance. I mean how long do we have to pay for 4 Issues of godliness? |
However, I'm not bragging about this: other times I have run the ITF at the same difficulty and got defeated once or twice.
The difference was team support and proper tactics. On the most recent run there was a Cold defender that kept me buffed -- I had 80% defense most of the time between the cold shields and Maneuvers. There were also a couple of debuffers on the team that attacked the spawn just after I went in. That coordination -- basically me not getting too far ahead of the team -- was what kept completely unscathed while taking the bulk of the aggro.
The thing about a soft-capped Fire tanker is that you can take the alpha from the Romans fairly successfully, especially if you use a purple inspiration before leaping in. But you can't get too far ahead of the team, and over the long haul your team is what will keep you alive as your defense is debuffed.
But that's pretty much true of any kind of tanker, if you run off alone and don't use proper tactics. Today we ran a Kahn TF at +0 and the stone tanker on our team ran off by himself and got defeated by Council. Council, for gosh sake!
If you can run missions against Romans solo at +2/x8 your Fire tanker is as tough as you can expect it to be. Admittedly you'll have a harder time of it than my Fire/Fire tanker because you won't have quite as many AoEs to quickly take out all the minions with their -def attacks. But if you can do that successfully, you'll be able to tank the ITF with a decent team behind you without ever taking a scratch.
Defense-based characters get defense debuff resistance because they don't have damage resistance. You don't need DDR because you already have damage resistance. But remember, all that DDR comes to naught when the enemies have high accuracy. Try running a shield tanker against Devouring Earth when a Quartz is out to see what I mean.
Pretty much all power sets have some weakness. The devs just aren't going to change that basic equation.
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Obviously some of you are godlike as fire tanks - or read to many of your own press releases while team with cold or FF buffs. I have heard the old I farm the wall thing a million times - guess what? I will absolutely guarantee my Fire/Dark corr can out tank and out damage you on any ITF you care to run. I also can farm the wall and I herd with a twist that lets you overcome the aggro caps and slaughter 3 or more groups at once in absolute safety.
I can pull both AV's and do the computer all at once - with no trouble. You see that is my problem I KNOW what my fire/dark corr can do and it far outstrips my Fire tank and that is silly. |
One thing a Fire/Dark corrupter doesn't do is tank. It would need to nigh on guarantee keep aggro off of other people whilst they attack the mobs you would be debuffing, fearing etc. What this tells me is that if I was on my Firetank and you were playing your Fire/Dark corrupter with the inside knowledge of Firetanks then I should be able to tank it easy. On my own and I have done ITF mishes on a x8 setting this morning to feel the pain of no support (soloed GW to get to them using one insp I think) and it represented a challenge. I like challenges, being solo x8 won't give me the feeling of the ambushes but then I am without team mates. It gives me an idea of how to move with lack of the right support say someone like your Fire/Dark would make. I play with taunt duration and presence. Something in away makes me want my old burn back but still end result remains same I think.
There are key members in the team who its imperative to keep attacks off of so that they do not get affected by controls, embroiled in their own personal battles and able to concentrate on looking out for the whole of their team whilst getting a couple of preferably aoes out. If they're not able to help then it can be like taking the bottom middle card from the bottom of a pyramid of cards.
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Why are you taking Burn away from the equation and then saying Fire tank damage is "nothing"? Well, no sh**. That's like saying Stone tanks should never touch Granite, and see how well they fare on the ITF... oh wait, I already do that. Bad example |
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
In a good team your damage is NOTHING on a fire tank. Don't believe me? Try this next time you are rolling along on an ITF don't use Burn - just use Blazing Aura to hold aggro and taunt.
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, but seriously, Burn doesn't give you any penalties, so please tell me why you shouldn't count it towards Fire tanks' contributions.My softcapped Fire tank has zero problems on ITFs. Zero. Don't need Cold/FF/Emp/whatever support, though they're well appreciated. Last time I died was on a speed run where we all split up hunting cysts on the 2nd map. I got around 3~4 of them on my on (all buffs had worn out by the 2nd cyst or so), got smothered by too many mobs and finally went down after almost finishing the last one. RotP, and down it went. Next cyst and done. Romans? I'd have to be standing hip deep in them w/zero support (and that includes just extra damage, i.e. blaster support) for a loooong time to get in trouble. Hell, I go through whole ITF runs w/o even touching HF once, tho those usually include decent (not great, just decent) buff support.
I'm happy your corr can clear spawns faster, so can my controllers, but that's not tanking, i.e. setting up fights for your teammates. Tanks are best at that, and Fire tanks do the job just fine on ITFs. Non-IO'ed Fire tanks might suffer a bit, but they wouldn't take advantage of any DDR anyway. Your "solution" would be optimal for those of us who IO the hell out of our tanks, and we already do fine.
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Huh, it must be the percentage, as those nullifiers really get me down when there are just two of them... and my Fire Tank has mid 70s resists to S/L. We're talking maybe 20s% resist to S/L. |
Originally Posted by Smersh
Funny, on my invuln tanker, I can get hit by Nullifer sonic grenades and a rad warden and still be resist capped against smashing and lethal - long after my other resists have plunged into the negatives. It has something to do with 90% resists resisting 90% of the debuffs.
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I still kind of think the resist sets (Fire, Dark, and Elec) could use with a little bit of a resist to resist debuffs above and beyond what their armors give them, as some of the -res powers we can face are really nasty, and they do need their resists to make it tanking. Not sure if it's even possible, but I still kind of feel that way. Probably not going to happen, but those -res powers are kind of ridiculous... if defense sets were getting nailed like that, we'd be hearing more howling.
Still, Fiery Aura does just fine on the ITF. Resists do make a big difference there: Tough is a must, and the Cardiac Alpha really makes a difference. My Tank soloed on the wall more smoothly before the level shift, even: from 69 to 75% resist to S/L makes that big of a difference on him. You can be fighting a lot more on the actual ITF, but the resists still help, and it's usually a good thing to be running with teammates, anyway.
All the Dark powers getting tossed around hurt me a lot less than defense debuffs, actually. The second mission is always noticeably less rough than the first one on a Fiery Aura character.
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Not that I think it's necessary, but I always thought that Tanks would have had some added debuff resistance to either Defense or Resistance as their inherent. Separating them from Scrappers and Brutes a little.
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Place your bids before you need the IO's. Patience is worth money at the consignment house. Your example is the Obliteration set. I love this set. I know I'm going to slot it often. I put bids up weeks before I need the pieces. I routinely get the *QUAD* for under 35 million. 200 million for the set? Not for me.
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Originally Posted by Breog
Not to sound like a dink here but... 1 Billion on a Biuld really isn't all that much. Even simple sets like Obliterations or Positrons blast can cost you a good 200 mil + for 1 power sloted with them.
Fire Tanker alone could slot 3 full sets of Obliteration without touching thier secondary. ( 600 mil ish already thier). |
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I don't have any particular problem with an arbitrary set having debuff resistance to an arbitrary debuff, provided it didn't break concept, and that it didn't imbalance the set.
You could argue that every tank set benefits quite a bit from def debuff resistance, even if they have no native defence... I'm not saying they should get it, just that the benefit is going to be real for everyone.
Having some alternate out of set source for anyone to grab such would be fine.
Still, that's not really what I want to write about... It takes a hell of a lot of inf to hardcap SL res on a fire tank, and you have to overslot both tough and fire shield a lot, but maybe you might want to think about getting as close as you can. Even the cardiac alpha can get you decently close, and if you ever really grow attached to that character and decide it's worth the (very significant) effort to stack on 2-3 gladiators strike sets and the +3 res you actually CAN get there.
Capped sl res and healing flames on a decent recharge would make almost all of the ITF a pretty serious snoozefest.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
Funny, I was just thinking, "Man, my INV Tanker could really use Burn." 
Though I'm not opposed to adding DEF debuff resistance to Fire Tankers (or even all Tankers as an add-on to Gauntlet), it's hard to see how Fire Tankers especially deserve it. Given the ease with which you can build up DEF to middling levels and use Inspirations to cover gaps, if anything I've been wondering whether Fire Tankers aren't the best of the entire AT these days.
Get a few Inspiration-combining macros going and a couple of Temp powers and you should be golden. By contrast, there's not a whole lot that a more defensive build can do to improve its offense to Fire-Tanker levels. Even popping Reds only does so much when you lack AoE attacks to enhance. And let us never forget a godly little power called Fiery Embrace, which circumvents the damage cap entirely.
All of that said, I'm finding that Bruising makes any Tanker a joy to play in team content.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Hey, yeah, Fire Tankers who feel squishy on the ITF could try acquiring the Kinetic Dampener temp power. The few times I've used it it seemed like a very nice addition.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
and a couple of Temp powers and you should be golden.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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There is also the Wedding Band from Peeble's Story arc in Striga. The original version can hard-cap Fire Tank resistances.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Hey, yeah, Fire Tankers who feel squishy on the ITF could try acquiring the Kinetic Dampener temp power. The few times I've used it it seemed like a very nice addition.
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The bad news is that the Ouro versions is far less powerful.
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Oh good, you're back. Perhaps you can answer my question now.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
There is also the Wedding Band from Peeble's Story arc in Striga. The original version can hard-cap Fire Tank resistances.
The bad news is that the Ouro versions is far less powerful. |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I've played the set. The stun doesn't last longer than the taunt. Where's the problem again?
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There are benefits to such an armor toggle that you're completely missing as well. Mobs that are stunned are controlled aggro, but do not count against the aggro cap, allowing the tanker to effectively control more than his 17 mob "limit."
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Yeah Mind controllers can probably control upto 70ish mobs at a time and only aggro 17. I would always as a Dark Tank try for no more than 17 despite anything, same with Icetanks.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
There are benefits to such an armor toggle that you're completely missing as well. Mobs that are stunned are controlled aggro, but do not count against the aggro cap, allowing the tanker to effectively control more than his 17 mob "limit."
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I am equipped with only SO enh, yet I have managed an 80% res to s/l. Thats a whole lot of res. And I have like, 7% def total from weave. Once I get my very-rare cardiac, I will have even more res to s/l, plus my 90% fire and 60% energy. That is pretty dang spiffy if you ask me. I am not sure where survival is an issue, except that if I had some reasonable amount of defense I would be pretty tough to kill. I expect to get ~20% def, maybe a little more, once I have IOs instead of SOs. Plus I get to burn things and use my axe attacks, so I do pretty good. I am certainly no god of firearmor.
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Its not even possible. There's no such thing as resistance to debuffs. There is just resistance. Technically, SR does not have resistance to defense debuffs. That's just what we call it. SR has resistance to defense. That means SR resists any and all changes to any of the attack types: melee_attack, ranged_attack, etc. It would resist its own toggles if those were not unresistable buffs.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Huh, it must be the percentage, as those nullifiers really get me down when there are just two of them... and my Fire Tank has mid 70s resists to S/L. We're talking maybe 20s% resist to S/L.
I still kind of think the resist sets (Fire, Dark, and Elec) could use with a little bit of a resist to resist debuffs above and beyond what their armors give them, as some of the -res powers we can face are really nasty, and they do need their resists to make it tanking. Not sure if it's even possible, but I still kind of feel that way. Probably not going to happen, but those -res powers are kind of ridiculous... if defense sets were getting nailed like that, we'd be hearing more howling. |
Damage resistance is resistance to that type. So smashing resistance is not resistance to smashing damage its resistance to smashing, period. Smashing resistance resists changes to your smashing attribute. Smashing damage attempts to change that attribute, and smashing resistance resists that change**. Resistance debuffs attempt to lower your resistance to that type. They are, in effect, changes to that type. Smashing resistance debuff attempts to lower your res to smashing. Smashing resistance itself attempts to resist that change.
There's no way to make something that resists smashing debuffs that wouldn't also resist smashing damage. So the only way to make something more resistant to a resistance debuff is to increase its resistance to that damage type, because the two resistances are literally the exact same thing.
** Decreasing our smashing attribute reduces our health automatically. Think of your smashing attribute as a shortcut or a symlink to your health. Editing smashing edits health. Same for the other damage types. That is how each damage type can have its own attribute - and by extension its own resistances - and yet all of them ultimately affect your one health bar.
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That's not why. To understand why Fire is unlikely to get DDR, or Dark Armor for that matter, its important to understand why SR *did* get it. There are two reasons, one that justifies an addition, and one that quantifies the addition.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
As to the OP's suggestions... um. Okay. I am one of the one's who suggested adding DDR to the Dark Armor set. I based that request on the inclusion of a Defense power, specifically Cloak of Darkness, to the Dark Armor Set. The lack of DDR and Cloak of Darkness's low defense rating made that tiny bit of defense pretty much... pointless.
I also understand why the developers said NO to that request. The Dark Armor set was not based around a defensive play-style. The Dark Armor set was designed as a Resistance Set. |
There is really only one ultimate reason SR got DDR: it was underperforming. Period. If you're not underperforming, the odds of getting a buff are slim, especially for melee anything. Dark Armor doesn't underperform, if anything it overperforms. So good luck getting DDR added to the set. You couldn't get swift added to the set at the present time. You could sooner get Cloak of Fear nerfed. Oh wait: they did that to Brutes.
If SR needed a buff, why DDR? Answer: cascade failure. Cascade failure is *not* defensive breakdown. In defensive breakdown, you are hit by enough defense debuffs to nullify your defense. Cascade failure is a special case of defensive breakdown. In cascade failure debuffs reduce defense, which makes additional debuffs significantly more likely to land, which makes even more debuffs land reducing defense even more. The effect cascades and causes an accelerating drop in defense. What's more, this comes automatically with a corresponding drop in damage mitigation.
5% defense cannot really cascade fail. It can fail, but that's what defense debuffs are *supposed* to do: hurt defense. Furthermore, Dark Armor cannot suffer a cascade defensive mitigation failure because it doesn't get very much protection from defense. Knocking out Cloak of Darkness means about as much to Dark Armor as knocking out combat jumping on a blaster.
So Dark Armor doesn't need DDR, and cannot justify DDR. The only way for Dark Armor to get enough defense so that it could possibly *see* cascade failure is with huge power pool and invention defense buffs. And we don't balance set requirements like DDR around those. If we did, blasters would get it if they range capped. That's ludicrous from a design perspective.
You could argue Fire underperforms. It might. That would suggest tweaking the set. But you cannot justify DDR, because the set simply cannot experience what DDR is intended to mitigate without resorting to things that we explicitly don't account for in powerset balancing of this form. Playstyle really has nothing to do with it. This is a case where its actually mathematically provable that Fire should not have DDR, because DDR is intended to prevent something Fire can never see.
If the devs ever gave DDR to Fiery Aura, they would just be admitting they put too much defense debuffs into the game and don't want to remove them, and would also be opening the door to *everyone* asking for defense debuff resistance. Because the only reason to add DDR to Fiery Aura is "why not?"
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I just read that myself. Lets just say that my testing of Dark Armor has been nothing short of excessive. I have, to put it bluntly, issues with the analysis of Dark Armor therein.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I read your linked blog. It shows mobs start to get away from the tank. It doesn't show what happens next. They wake up and come back because they're still taunted.
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Also, critters do not perform perception checks when they have aggro. They only perform perception checks when they have nothing on their hate list. If a tanker taunts a critter, there is no amount of invisibility that can make the critter fail to notice the tanker. The only way for Oppressive Gloom to cause critters to "wander off and them start shooting at your team mates" is if you somehow managed to slot Oppressive Gloom with a placate procing IO from the future.
As to giving Dark Armor recovery and 80% s/l resistances?
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Wow. I love reading Arcanaville posts because they are not only informative, but educational, too!
I didn't realize the game treated Resistance this way - it's a peek into the underlying logic of the game and the game designers.
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For mixed,WP for example, sets would it then be possible to have typed resistance to defense so that it could have good defense resist for F/C/N/E where it is almost entirely defense based and lower defense resist for S/L where it is more resist than defense?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its not even possible. There's no such thing as resistance to debuffs. There is just resistance. Technically, SR does not have resistance to defense debuffs. That's just what we call it. SR has resistance to defense. That means SR resists any and all changes to any of the attack types: melee_attack, ranged_attack, etc. It would resist its own toggles if those were not unresistable buffs.
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My understanding is no - you either have the attribute that is DDR or you don't. It's because defense does not get debuffed by type, it just gets debuffed across the board. There's no mob that only debuffs your fire defense, for example.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
For mixed,WP for example, sets would it then be possible to have typed resistance to defense so that it could have good defense resist for F/C/N/E where it is almost entirely defense based and lower defense resist for S/L where it is more resist than defense?
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Basically yeah. You can have resistance to a particular defense type, but nothing debuffs just one type. All defense debuffs are base defense debuffs - you can see that in the combat monitor. So all DDR powers grant resistance to base defense (debuffs).|
Originally Posted by Smersh
My understanding is no - you either have the attribute that is DDR or you don't. It's because defense does not get debuffed by type, it just gets debuffed across the board. There's no mob that only debuffs your fire defense, for example.
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Its a handy shortcut and reduces both the workload of the devs and makes the game engine faster. They would debuff resistance in the same way if they could, but they cannot because there is no such thing as "base resistance."
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Using purple inspirations as you take debuff hits usually prevents "cascade".
Of course you need to monitor your def to see it take said hit...not just wait for health to drop.
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Fact is, on a good team, you could take away ANY ONE of the 8 people, and "you won't add more than 5-10 seconds on the defeat time of the group". That doesn't apply to just tanks.