Strongest AoE potential on a Brute Primary

So, for the past several days I've been trying to construct a Brute. I've already had immense success with a Fire/Shield Scrapper, currently my main, but I wanted to take things on a slightly different bent. So this time I wanted to build a brute for serious survivability.

I'm already pretty set on WP, to remove anything resembling endurance management issues and to allow monstrous regen, which I hear is disgusting combined with a softcap or near-softcap, which I've got the budget to pull off. Soul would close any softcap gaps with a bit of -ToHit, and to allow Gloom to shore up any ST damage deficiency.

So that seems good to me. Now I just have one question, one I've been waffling on so hard that it comes with blueberries, boysenberry syrup and a side of bacon - Which primary do I run?

I tried Dark Melee, only to discover that not having significant area of effect drives me >crazy.< So I've learned the goal I should pursue - Massive area damage. Fortunately, the character is a hulking demon-tiger, so a lot of primaries fit. Actually, this may be unfortunate, because it's making me suffer from deer-in-the-Astrodome indecision.

Which of the Brute Primaries does the most?

Elec seems like the first answer, but Lightning Rod is capped at 400% damage and on a longish timer and Thunder Strike isn't as strong as Foot Stomp or Spin. SS can stack up Rage and Footstomp has a huge radius and recharges quickly, and that Rage bonus seems like could easily apply to Pool AoEs and increase the potential. Claws does a lot of damage with its AoEs, even if small, and permanent doublestacked Follow Up could increase the potential of epic attacks, but it's lethal, and what if lethal gets >resisted,< could I then use the Achilles procs to decrease resistance, which is voltage over current, which is a small kind of berry, so what if I spread it on a sandwich and Grandma chokes on it and dies because I took the wrong powerset aaaaaargh.

My thought process has been like this for days. Does anyone more experienced with a variety of Brute melee sets have potential advice?

Both SS or Claws would work, imo. SS has the best AoE for the most part but claws is up there. So really whichever you think fits the concept better.

I really don't get the hype about Claws damage being so resisted it's not worth rolling.

Funny that these same kind of threads pop up every few days. Your search fu is weak!

With that said, I would advise you to look at Super Strength, or WM/ Battle Axe. All those are new things for you, assuming you haven't done them on a tanker or a previous brute experiment. All three have strong AoE potential and are a fun ride.

You know full well from your fire/shield scrapper that your secondary can be tremendously influential on one's success as an AoE monster. Therefore, I would advise you against willpower and steer you in the direction of /FA, /ELA, /DA or maybe even toward /shield again. Adding damage auras into AoE is a great way to maximize damage. Of course with shield and fiery aura, you get nifty ways to not only maximize damage potential, but you even get attacks. /DA and /ELA are both very sturdy and will add AoE dmg fields.

/ELA and /FA have built in endurance recovery tools, and with cardiac alpha tree, energy mastery, and proper IO slotting, even the thirsty beast that is /DA shouldn't have too many issues with endurance.

SS, Claws, DB or WM for sustained AoE damage. ElM has uber burst AoE but less sustained potential than the others. So it all depends on what recharge you get for L-Rod. But as a caveat even then, the other sets listed here also have good ST DPS, which ElM doesn't. So I find it subpar.

Between SS, Claws, DB and WM the difference is mostly in play style. With SS you just jump in and start stomping till everything is dead. With Claws you maintain double-stacked Follow-Up and Spin Spin Spin, with Eviscerate in between if you're using it (I'm not because it feels so sloooooow). WM and DB require a little bit of legwork since two of their three AoEs are cones. But all of them can dish out great AoE.

Interesting piece of info - Spin on double-stacked FU outdamages FS on double-stacked Rage, and double-stacked FU is much easier to get than double-stacked Rage. FS has bigger radius though so makes the initial strike much easier.

re:The resistance thing

I did some testing last night with my broadsword scrapper and discovered what REALLY kicks lethal sets in the teeth is a combination of high resistance and con difference. Most orange con late game bosses I tried - Rikti bosses, Malta bosses, Arachnos Bosses, Longbow bosses, and Council bosses reduced my damage from headsplitter from 330ish to the 220s (rough numbers on both. Didn't write them down.). That's a 30% resistance by eyeballing. I'm sure someone has the real numbers but I was just doing the 'hit it with the sword and look at the damage' thing. Rikti in particular.

A red con Rikti boss reduced this to just below 200. Somewhere around the 45% damage resistance mark (more than 165 damage so less than 50%).

That's a lot of loss for a primary to deal with for a common enemy group.

Mind you it didn't stop me from making Rikti stew. Even being resisted by 45% STILL put my single target damage above most other ATs.

As for the original question Spin is positively awesome at low levels (because it comes at a low level) but I think Footstomp edges it out once it shows up... the damage is similar, the recharge is... similar(?), and Footstomp has knockdown.

Either are better than the set designed around AoE (Electric), which is too bad really.

Claws, Elm, FM, SS & WM are all good choices.

Personally, I find Elm so much better on a scrapper that I would feel let down playing it on a brute - the ST damage is also anemic.

Since you're going WP I like to pair it withprimaries that work to benefit RttC - i.e. something with KD.

SS/WP is a classic combo, you only get 1 AoE - but it is easily one of the best available.

WM/WP is a fun combo, you will need to use positioning more to make the most of your PBAoEs, but once you get a solid amount of recharge you can practically just chain the three of them together.

Both of those have decent to awesome ST attacks available, and can be built to do some very respectable ST DPS (with SS winning out if you add gloom and high recharge).

Last, don't discount the patron pools, the TAoEs you get access to aren't super hard-hitting but they hit 16 targets and can be used at range as a psuedo-taunt. The damage they deal, definitely adds up and is worth it, imo.

Okay! Thanks for the responses! \^.^/

From your descriptions of the sets, the fact that I think the character could get away with feeling very smashy easier than slicy, and the fact that I already have an SD/WM Tank, I think I'm going to take your advice and run with Super Strength.

So far the planned 50 build I've got worked up for it looks like this. I could easily have overlooked some obscure sets as this is my first time working for typed rather than positional defense, but I think this reasonably well balances power efficacy and set defense bonus:


Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Fyren Kashari: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Super Strength
Secondary Power Set: Willpower
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Punch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), Numna-Heal(11), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(13), GA-3defTpProc(34)
Level 2: Haymaker -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(11), Numna-Heal/Rchg(13)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), Ksmt-ToHit+(9), LkGmblr-Def(39)
Level 8: Knockout Blow -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(15), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(15), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 12: Mind Over Body -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(21), RctvArm-ResDam(23), RctvArm-EndRdx(25)
Level 14: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(21), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(23), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(34), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(34), Mocking-Rchg(36)
Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(19), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 18: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 20: Rage -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25)
Level 22: Quick Recovery -- EndMod-I(A), P'Shift-EndMod(40), P'Shift-End%(40)
Level 24: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RctvArm-ResDam(31), RctvArm-EndRdx(33)
Level 26: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(27), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(27)
Level 28: Heightened Senses -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(29), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(29)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 32: Foot Stomp -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(33), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 35: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(37)
Level 38: Strength of Will -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(40), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(42), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 41: Soul Tentacles -- Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg(A), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(42), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(42), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob(43), Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng(45), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(45)
Level 44: Dark Obliteration -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(46), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), Posi-Dam%(46)
Level 47: Darkest Night -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb(A), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(48), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(48), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Gloom -- Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 0: Born In Battle
Level 0: High Pain Threshold
Level 0: Invader
Level 0: Marshal
Level 50: Spiritual Radial Paragon
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(37)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), P'Shift-EndMod(19), P'Shift-End%(37)



Weird, no matter what I export it keeps exporting the Alpha Slot as Spiritual Radial Paragon rather than the more likely imminent Spiritual Total Radial Revamp, but whatever. Anyhow, the highlights include 42.5% S/L, 40.8 En/Neg, and 34.5 Fire/Cold. Darkest Night, RttC, Dark Oblit and Gloom should help make up the difference between those numbers and the softcap.

Regeneration is at 69.86HP with just one enemy feeding RttC, and a maxHP of 2470 with the accolades.

Whatcha think?

SS/WP is a good choice and works well with Gloom unlike weapon sets which causes redraw.

Yea "sadly" SS is the closest to what you're looking for, and it comes from only one power Foot Stomp (coupled with Rage also, but mainly FS).

- Fire is not bad with FSC, and slotted for range Fire Breath will be at best decent.
- Claws is fun but resisted alot, and it's biggest area AoE does KB.
- DB is fun too like claws, but its AoEs have small areas of effet.
- Stone Melee, I love this set, but its AoEs are more about control than damage.
- And of course there is Elec. Elec is fun for AoEs, even if sometime you end up waiting a bit too much for LR to recharge, but its single target dmg is heavily lacking and it's sometime frustrating.

Anyone saying Claws gets resisted too much in the end game aspect is welcome to look up my claw/wp softcap on pinnacle.

Claws/WP is more fun than se.....umm...okay, maybe not THAT fun, but it INVENTED sliced bread.

Well, lets throw some real numbers into the mix. All numbers are without enhancement of any kind (fury, Rage, build up, set bonuses, even SOs). Just raw unslotted powers.

We'll start with the three that are mentioned the most: claws, ss, and fire.

Spin does 78 damage per 14 seconds. 8 Foot radius.
Footstomp does 59 per 20 seconds. 15 foot radius.
Firesword Circle does 32 lethal, 32 fire, with an 80% chance of doing 4 ticks of 4 fire damage. 10 foot radius.
Breath of Fire does 2 ticks of 28 damage, with an 80% chance of doing 4 ticks of 4 fire damage every 10 seconds. 15 feet range/radius.

All numbers are from
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/

It could be noted that 'slotted for range' Fire breath is beyond 'at best decent'. It's animation time sucks but 80% of the time it's the best damage/recharge cycle here.

Footstomp may be great for SS but when comparing damage dealt per second of recharge, Tremor and Footstomp are equal. Less damage for shorter recharge, the same radius, same mob cap, and slightly longer animation. The Dev's have really balanced out the damage output of AT's if you look at them closely enough, though Fury would benefit Footstomp more because of the higher damage base. Even Fire Sword Circle only does max damage 80% of the time and also has a long recharge as well (My personal favorite as I also have a Fire/Shield Scrapper)

Nobody has mentioned it, but Kinetic Melee should probably be mentioned despite its small radius. The damage potential of Power Siphon, lower base recharge, and enough +global recharge may be able to challenge Fury + Rage.

Yeah, but footstomp has an advantage tremor can't hope to match. Rage. Superstrength's numbers are misleading like that... Rage is *meant* to be run permanently - that's why slotting 3 recharge does it. (Now, meant to be stacked is more questionable).

Exactly correct. Rage adds a constant bonus to other AoEs you may get in your patron pool that people seem to forget as well. Double rage is better than double blinding feint, double follow up, and perma soul drain.

With high recharge Footstomp can get close to damage per target on spin and affect a greater area in addition to adding higher bonus damage to things like Ball Lightning or Fireball when rage is calculated

you list the resists from order of most to least, but you forget the amount of recharge claws can actually put out and the DPS it can still match up with. Axe hits hard, but I'd take a claws any day due to the sole DPS of it all.

Even on Brutes, Claws is about middle of the pack for DPS before resistances are considered. SS, Stone, Fire, DM will all do better given similar effort.

The good thing about Claws is that it peaks early, you don't need much recharge to get going.

Honestly, if claws had the best AoE potential, don't you think you would see a ton of claws/whatever spamming their PL farms for money? Instead you see 15 guys with SS and one crazy guy with DM and another with Elec

That said, it's still one of my favorite animations in the game and part of the reason that stone melee is my favorite attack primary, despite it's low damage potential compared to other sets (though of course what it lacks in dps is makes up for with burst damage and control). With a second tier spiritual alpha and 125% global recharge with hasten running my pylon time is 18 minutes - a far cry from other sets with similar alpha and recharge.

But no... stone should not be in the running for 'strongest aoe potential' in the context of this thread.