What if Lois Lane was Black?
By
Antigonus,
Posted on: 2011-02-22 14:12 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
It's great that we're actually getting a discussion out of this and that was pretty much what I was hoping for with the original post, but I just wanted to touch on something real quick before I let the rest of the forum take this topic and run with it some more.
It doesn't seem like the argument of racial diversity vs established origins is going to get us anywhere in this particular case. I mean, you're going to have people saying that race in general isn't that big of a deal because for the most part it plays little into the character's background. Then you're going to have others come back by saying that race is just as defining as any other trait of the character and therefore must be preserved. Then the other side can just as easily say that there are going to be aspects of a character that's been around longer than most of us have been alive that are unsavory or simply leave a bad taste it one's mouth, and if we can salvage or rectify those elements then we should. Finally, we get back to the other guys saying that if it's okay to change that then nothing is sacred and if everything's on the table then why use that character in the first place.
I think we should be looking at it in a much more focused manner. If we get too distracted by any racial issues affecting our society we'll be talking about it forever. The reason I brought up Lois Lane in the first place is because the greatest compliment I can pay a woman is to say they're like Lois Lane. You know the type. They're willful and they stand up for what they believe in and they won't stand for injustice. That's what I think of when Lois Lane comes to mind; I think of a woman with strength and brilliance who takes those things and puts them to work in the name of something good. I think of a woman who represents some of the very best aspects of humankind and couldn't help but attract the love of a man who could literally have any female in the universe. That, not her physical appearance, is what I believe is iconic about Lois Lane.
And I believe finding an actress who can effectively pull that off and make it so no one even questions why Superman would love Lois Lane should be the focus.
So I guess to rephrase the original question: when you think of Lois Lane, what kind of affect would her being black have on what comes to mind?
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I was refering to at that time table of the 1930s as my example. Not as a general context for America as a whole as a biracial situation wouldn't be as remotely unheard of now as it would be by 1930s standards.
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Originally Posted by Furio
No, but my point was that you, in your hypothetical example, pointed to a black woman as being outside the norm. No other details about her, just black and a female. It's that attitude that explains why being white isn't generally seen as a defining character trait.
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When translating a story/character from one visual medium to another I expect them to look similar, that includes skin color. Like it or not, but how a comic book character looks is just as important as their personality.
Non-visual medium to a visual medium? Go nuts and use whoever fits (unless the story requires a character to be a certain phenotype or whatever).
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I wonder what the reaction would be if someone suggested that Shaft be casted with a white actor to promote racial harmony.......?
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You didn't read the thread, did you?
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Originally Posted by Last Post
I wonder what the reaction would be if someone suggested that Shaft be casted with a white actor to promote racial harmony.......?
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It would make no difference. That wouldn't stop the media from wildly overanalyzing the decision, though.
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Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
The reason I brought up Lois Lane in the first place is because the greatest compliment I can pay a woman is to say they're like Lois Lane. You know the type. They're willful and they stand up for what they believe in and they won't stand for injustice. That's what I think of when Lois Lane comes to mind; I think of a woman with strength and brilliance who takes those things and puts them to work in the name of something good. I think of a woman who represents some of the very best aspects of humankind and couldn't help but attract the love of a man who could literally have any female in the universe. That, not her physical appearance, is what I believe is iconic about Lois Lane.
And I believe finding an actress who can effectively pull that off and make it so no one even questions why Superman would love Lois Lane should be the focus. So I guess to rephrase the original question: when you think of Lois Lane, what kind of affect would her being black have on what comes to mind? |
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*Elbows Last Post in the ribs*|
Originally Posted by Last Post
I wonder what the reaction would be if someone suggested that Shaft be casted with a white actor to promote racial harmony.......?
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SHHHH!!!! You're not supposed to go there!!
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Originally Posted by Vox Populi
All things being equal, this would be an ideal solution. But things aren't equal. The "whites only" club of characters have a 50-plus year head start, making them more popular and profitable.
Saying "go start your own club" is kind of being a jerk. Just take down the "whites only" sign. |
That's a huge leap you made there, and isn't even close to what I said. Also a little insulting, but you know that.
So instead of creating new non-white characters that are well written and relevant and capable of holding their own against the old standbys of the "whites only" club, the publishers should just hand over all the old characters they have been writing for decades and change them in a way that completely ignores continuity and disrepects their history to make the "sides" even. In what way does this help anybody move foward? In what way does this really help to increase diversity? You can't increase by subtraction.
It's not about numbers, man. It's not about how many white characters vs. non-white. It's about the quality of the writing. Lets face it, most non-white characters written during the silver age of comics were little more than stereotypes who were there to support their white counterparts. The Golden age was even worse. It's really only in the last 20 years or so that things have turned around and non-white characters have been given substance. It's only when the publishers really work to integrate more non-white characters, and more female characters for that matter, that things will get better. Giving away old characters and turning them into something they aren't isn't the answer. That doesn't solve anything, it's just insulting.
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It's not an either-or situation. Of course creating new characters is also great.|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
So instead of...
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| ...creating new non-white characters that are well written and relevant and capable of holding their own against the old standbys of the "whites only" club, |
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| ...the publishers should just hand over all the old characters they have been writing for decades and change them in a way that completely ignores continuity and disrepects their history to make the "sides" even. |
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Sure did.... and if it wasn't obvious I'll spell it out for you.|
Originally Posted by Smersh
You didn't read the thread, did you?
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The topic is......passe, for the lack of a better term. Ultimately I think topics like these ie racism, affirmative action, discrimination are a big deal because people with special interests keep making them into a big deal.
What if Lois Lane was black? Then she would be black.... so what? What if Lois Lane was Louis Lane? Or Lois Li? or his sister Lois Kent?..... ok, that one went too far. But you get my point.
It is interesting to me as someone who enjoys history, the real history about putting things into historical context for the time, that something like affirmative action was first passed in the United States in order to promote equality based on merit and has become synonymous with something else entirely for today's generation. I'm not saying whether that's right or wrong, whether they had it right in the past or whether people are more "fair" today... just putting it out there. Some people like to stir things up.... and I won't say whether that's me or the fact that this topic got started.
I actually find the discussion interesting.
Wash: "I've been under fire before. Well ... I've been in a fire. Actually, I was fired. I can handle myself."
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Ahhh now that's a different story. Assuming she was black from the beginning? I wouldn't bat an eye. People are people as far as I'm concerned, it's only what people choose to be or portray about themselves that I look for. Now back in the 30's when the series was created? That would obviously change the story a lot.|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
So I guess to rephrase the original question: when you think of Lois Lane, what kind of affect would her being black have on what comes to mind?
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As for nowadays, I think it would be a neat story to have a contender against Lois for Superman's affections, and make her black, hispanic, whatever. Have her actually flirt with and like Clark for who he is, and agressively hot on the trail of the next Superman story. Have her beat Lois to an interview or two. Take a year or so of having her around, building up to Clark coming to the conclusion that he's starting to have feelings for her too. Heck, Lois and her may even be friendly rivals for the Superman interviews (Lois is after Superman, the other girl's chasing down Clark- she's just after the story and Lois can respect that... eventually).
The thing is, if Clark starts having feelings for the 'new girl', Superman flirting with Lois would become... awkward to say the least. He's just not a 'player' like that.
And at some point, race would probably get brought up. I'd love to see Supes (or as Clark, depending on situation) chewing a hole through that person for even bringing race into it. Why? Because when it all comes down to it, he's not even human, but someone would be down on another human because of their skin color?
I think it would be really good storytelling, but it needs to be a well written, seperate, independent character.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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Great point! Or from a historical perspective what if that story did take place in the 30's, how was it dealt with and would that change how people look at the character today if he was less than liberal in his thinking for that time. The old bugs bunny and such cartoons from WW2 that portrayed Japanese and their culture during the war are very interesting to watch now but mostly buried and forgotten. I would bet very few people have seen them in the past 40 or so years.|
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
Ahhh now that's a different story. Assuming she was black from the beginning? I wouldn't bat an eye. People are people as far as I'm concerned, it's only what people choose to be or portray about themselves that I look for. Now back in the 30's when the series was created? That would obviously change the story a lot.
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Originally Posted by Lycantropus
And at some point, race would probably get brought up. I'd love to see Supes (or as Clark, depending on situation) chewing a hole through that person for even bringing race into it. Why? Because when it all comes down to it, he's not even human, but someone would be down on another human because of their skin color?.
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Wash: "I've been under fire before. Well ... I've been in a fire. Actually, I was fired. I can handle myself."
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I do too. That's what brought me out of 'lurk mode' to actually take part in the conversation. Growing up I never really gave race much thought. I guess it was part of where I grew up/around. I dunno, maybe I just didn't pay any attention, but I feel kind of lucky for that. I've lived a lot more places and have seen a lot more racism (subtle and overt from many 'sides') over the years since though. I'm not sure how it is in Canada (I noticed your location) but in the American south, for example, well there's still some progress to be made.|
Originally Posted by Last Post
Sure did.... and if it wasn't obvious I'll spell it out for you.
The topic is......passe, for the lack of a better term. Ultimately I think topics like these ie racism, affirmative action, discrimination are a big deal because people with special interests keep making them into a big deal. What if Lois Lane was black? Then she would be black.... so what? What if Lois Lane was Louis Lane? Or Lois Li? or his sister Lois Kent?..... ok, that one went too far. But you get my point. It is interesting to me as someone who enjoys history, the real history about putting things into historical context for the time, that something like affirmative action was first passed in the United States in order to promote equality based on merit and has become synonymous with something else entirely for today's generation. I'm not saying whether that's right or wrong, whether they had it right in the past or whether people are more "fair" today... just putting it out there. Some people like to stir things up.... and I won't say whether that's me or the fact that this topic got started. I actually find the discussion interesting. |
I completely agree that it remains an issue until folks finally decide it's not, and the cultural subtext around that is changing slowly to reflect the new paradigm. Though it's slow. There's still folks operating in government who voted on segregation issues back in the day, and folks who were around when it was full swing. It takes time.
Luke Cage is married to a white woman and in all the stuff I've read they've never pointed out "Hey! They're a 'mixed' couple" or anything. More discussion was raised about the lifestyle they want to raise their kid in (super or not). I'll admit. I didn't read about him and Jessica getting together or married, I came in after, so I don't know how the story went leading up to that. However, they've done a beautiful job making them a married couple, not a black guy married to a white woman. Just a couple. That's good writing. People first, characters second. THAT's what we need more of.
It's happening.
Anyway, back on topic...
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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Oh, I read that 'What If..." before. It ends with Mermaid-Batman battling a sentient bulldozer for the presidency.
| What if Lois Lane was Black? |
Hehehe. I would be far more interested in a hispanic Superman. 
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Originally Posted by JohnX
*Elbows Last Post in the ribs*
SHHHH!!!! You're not supposed to go there!! |
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What if Lois Lane was a black man?
I'm guessing that would make for a pretty unpopular movie.
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Hi everyone,
The topic of casting actors and actresses of different races than their traditional comic book counterparts has been a hot topic lately, and while the issue falls under what is defined as "Comic and Hero/Villain Culture," these threads have the potential to become too racially charged for the boards.
While I thank everyone thus far for a measured and non-derogatory discussion, I must still close the thread as these types of discussions tend to wander into areas that are inappropriate for the board. Again, I apologize, but please do not discuss racial casting on the forum. Thanks everyone.
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