What if Lois Lane was Black?
By
Antigonus,
Posted on: 2011-02-22 14:12 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Comic book characters do not exist. They are as real as talking animals. Actors and actresses can easily portray both. You lose.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
It is absolutely not.
Animals are not people. Talking animals do not exist. You're positing a hypothetical with a negligible chance of occurring within our lifetimes as an argument. Actors of every race and background do exist, and even work for a living in Hollywood in the real world. Also, acting is not purely voice - there is a physical presence that has to be considered unless you go to voice acting, which is outside the discussion here. Try again. |
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Be as cynical as you want. I'm not the one suggesting another persons intellectual property should be changed because of my personal prejudices.
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
So long as you don't mind the implication that Superman likes dogs in that way, sure.
Then again, if I wanted to be very cynical, I could point out that you're saying changing Lois Lane to a non-white race is equivalent to changing her to an animal. Rather unfortunate implications. |
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There's that word again.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Be as cynical as you want. I'm not the one suggesting another persons intellectual property should be changed because of my personal prejudices.
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I would argue that her race is an integral aspect of the character given the era that the character was created and the accomplishments that character achieved during that time and the time since. Lois Lane was never envisioned as black in anything but one "what if?" type issue. There is decades of continuity to the character that has in essence given the character a life of it's own, and that continuity must be respected. If a biopic of Lady Bird Johnson were being made, nobody in their right mind would even consider casting a black woman in the role. Why would it be an option for a character with the kind of history that Lois Lane has? |
Originally Posted by Smersh
Conversely, is there any overarching reason why Lois Lane has to be caucasian? Is it a key, defining part of her character? Is it integral to understanding who she is?
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I'm not saying it can't be done. I saying it shouldn't be done. In large part because nobody would take it seriously as the given character. Even if the actress in question gave an amazing performance that garned awards, it would still be dismissed as not being the right character. Why? Because Lois Lane is caucasian, and that is indelibly imprinted in the minds of anybody that has ever read or even heard of the character.
Alot of people in these discussions like to bring up the Nick Fury race change. It should be pointed out that the Nick Fury of the Ultimate Universe is not the Nick fury of the 616 universe. They are completely different characters occupying completely different universes. About the only thing the two have in common is the name and their affiliation with SHIELD. In all other respects they are completely different people and as such the comparison does not apply.
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And black is not white. To me, drastically changing Lois' racial appearance would be like changing Superman's colours to orange, green, and purple rather than blue, red, and yellow. People try to make it out to be a big racial issue, when it's an aesthetic matter as simple as the difference between casting an old versus a young person, or a fat versus a thin person for a particular role.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
Animals are not people.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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...seriously?|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Comic book characters do not exist. They are as real as talking animals. Actors and actresses can easily portray both. You lose.
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Fictional characters do exist. We read about them and see them in the movies every day. In that sense, they are much more real than talking animals, which do not exist outside of fictional sources. Which is why we use real people who exist (actors) to portray fictional characters. It's quite hard to use people who do not exist (talking animals) to portray fictional characters. Talking animals, here, are a subset of fictional characters. But actors and actresses portray fictional characters all the time on film - you don't see fictional people playing fictional people in film yet.
And, before you go there, I'm not going into animation, I'm only discussing live film at this juncture. That likewise covers CGI creations in their entirety for the purpose of this discussion. (Though to date, all CGI creations that function as fictional people are based, at some point, on real people.)
Real person portraying fictional person - possible.
Real person portraying talking animal - possible.
Fictional person portraying fictional person - impossible.
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I get they like to add some variety to the casting, usually with secondary characters since majority the characters upon conception were white. I don't blame the comic creators for it, as they were working with what was acceptable, as over time more and more characters have been given more diverse backgrounds.
But on the same token how come being white isn't considered a defining trait? It reminds me of This. Why is being white always considered blank slate characters that we can easily interchange and somehow the character remains the same, but if we change say Luke Cage into a white guy it's a problem?
I think with in my own life my ethic background has contributed to who I am, as if I was born hispanic would probably radically changed my experience growing up an heavily hispanic neighborhood. Whether I was taller I might be it might changed my life. If I was really fat it might have radically altered my life. So many variables to just say taking a character and flip flopping their race is unimportant is a gross over generalization. It's not that cut and dry.
My thoughts are if you really wanted to make a alter version of a character with simliar powers, Why not create a brand new character? Say if you wanted to character a black superman, we saw this a bit with Hancock.(which during the middle of the movie when he saves the bank he really came across as a bonefid super hero, as he was damn heroic. Something I could have really got behind.) In the case of we didn't see them beat us over the head with the fact Will Smith is black all film. It was an aspect of his character, but he was still a 3 dimensional character not a sterotype to the end. It suffered from some hang ups from a disjointed story but it had nothing to do with race.
I can understand people wanting to see more diverse characters, as my heart went out to the obituaries when I read the article about Perry Moore, producer of chronicles of Naria, and author of the book hero about a gay super hero. He expressed frustration with watching most gay characters always being secondary characters and often suffering from girl in the fridge effect. I think everyone should have a character they can identify with too, and not feel like who they are can never be the hero of a story. That they are destined to always be saved, trampled and over all insignifigant to world unless the white male lead does it first. There's definitely room for improvement but toss to a few hand out secondary characters to minorities isn't exactly the right answer. There needs be something geniuely compelling to the character on it's own to appeal to a wider audience.
It's a tough postion as some change is probably in order to diversify things to get everyone into the story. It's a hard call as you don't want to tick off anyone but not everyone is going to be happy with whatever you do. Why going with original compelling characters is probably the best solution.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
...seriously?
Fictional characters do exist. We read about them and see them in the movies every day. In that sense, they are much more real than talking animals, which do not exist outside of fictional sources. Which is why we use real people who exist (actors) to portray fictional characters. It's quite hard to use people who do not exist (talking animals) to portray fictional characters. Talking animals, here, are a subset of fictional characters. But actors and actresses portray fictional characters all the time on film - you don't see fictional people playing fictional people in film yet. And, before you go there, I'm not going into animation, I'm only discussing live film at this juncture. That likewise covers CGI creations in their entirety for the purpose of this discussion. (Though to date, all CGI creations that function as fictional people are based, at some point, on real people.) Real person portraying fictional person - possible. Real person portraying talking animal - possible. Fictional person portraying fictional person - impossible. |
Who said anything about fictional people playing fictional people. My position is that there is no valid reason to suddenly change a characters race/gender/species.
Personally I wouldn't raise any objection to Superman discovering a new love interest other than Lois Lane who could be black, asian, latino whatever. I wouldn't even object if the love interest was gay.
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Yes! I agree with this entirely!
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Originally Posted by Lastjustice
My thoughts are if you really wanted to make a alter version of a character with simliar powers, Why not create a brand new character? Say if you wanted to character a black superman, we saw this a bit with Hancock.(which during the middle of the movie when he saves the bank he really came across as a bonefid super hero, as he was damn heroic. Something I could have really got behind.) In the case of we didn't see them beat us over the head with the fact Will Smith is black all film. It was an aspect of his character, but he was still a 3 dimensional character not a sterotype to the end. It suffered from some hang ups from a disjointed story but it had nothing to do with race.
I can understand people wanting to see more diverse characters, as my heart went out to the obituaries when I read the article about Perry Moore, producer of chronicles of Naria, and author of the book hero about a gay super hero. He expressed frustration with watching most gay characters always being secondary characters and often suffering from girl in the fridge effect. I think everyone should have a character they can identify with too, and not feel like who they are can never be the hero of a story. That they are destined to always be saved, trampled and over all insignifigant to world unless the white male lead does it first. There's definitely room but toss a few hand out secondary characters to minorities is exactly the right answer. There needs be something geniuely compelling to the character on it's own to appeal to a wider audience. It's a tough postion as some change is probably in order to diversify things to get everyone into the story. It's a hard call as you don't want to tick off anyone but not everyone is going to be happy with whatever you do. Why going with original compelling characters is probably the best solution. |
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Exactly. It is a far more ellegant solution and actually adds new continuity rather than just paving over the old and pretending it doesn't exist.|
Originally Posted by Lastjustice
My thoughts are if you really wanted to make a alter version of a character with simliar powers, Why not create a brand new character?
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Yes, racism is bad. Pretending a persons race doesn't influence who they are is worse.
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There is no other species on this planet that acts. There is unlikely to be one in the next 50 years. You are making an argument that is deliberately obtuse and outrageous, and is logically indefensible.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Who said anything about fictional people playing fictional people. My position is that there is no valid reason to suddenly change a characters race/gender/species.
Personally I wouldn't raise any objection to Superman discovering a new love interest other than Lois Lane who could be black, asian, latino whatever. I wouldn't even object if the love interest was gay. |
Talking animals are fictional. They don't exist. Your argument is flawed.
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Because reducing diversity is bad. Increasing diversity is good.|
Originally Posted by Lastjustice
Why is being white always considered blank slate characters that we can easily interchange and somehow the character remains the same, but if we change say Luke Cage into a white guy it's a problem?
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Seriously, 95% of the best known superheroes and their supporting cast are white. It's an embarrassing reminder of the past, and any chance to alter some characters (like starting a new movie franchise) should be jumped at.
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Whether his side arguement with his analogy flies or not is not what he was ultimately getting at. This is what he was getting at...|
Originally Posted by Smersh
There is no other species on this planet that acts. There is unlikely to be one in the next 50 years. You are making an argument that is deliberately obtuse and outrageous, and is logically indefensible.
Talking animals are fictional. They don't exist. Your argument is flawed. |
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| Yes, racism is bad. Pretending a persons race doesn't influence who they are is worse. |
Taking Foamy's original point of having being like superman being born and raised in the 30s and dating a black woman(as someone who feels like an outsider may be they find comfort in another who doesn't belong to the norm too.) probably would be an interesting story. If someone were to create a completely new character and explore this what if it probably could be a worthwhile story. A biracial couple back then was not taken well at all. Particularly lets say his parents were against it too adding more layers to the plot. The story however wouldn't look anything like the current iconic version of what every knows of Lois lane and Superman we have now. Why it would be best left to a new character or else world.
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No, it should not be jumped at. Taking the opportunity to create new characters that embrace their heritage should be jumped at. We should increase diversity by created the future, not by destroying the past, however ugly it may be. |
Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Because reducing diversity is bad. Increasing diversity is good.
Seriously, 95% of the best known superheroes and their supporting cast are white. It's an embarrassing reminder of the past, and any chance to alter some characters (like starting a new movie franchise) should be jumped at. |
Learn from the past, don't erase it.
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Removing diversity by altering existing characters would be bad. Increasing diversity by arbitrarily altering existing characters is also bad.
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Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Because reducing diversity is bad. Increasing diversity is good.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Very true.|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
Exactly. It is a far more ellegant solution and actually adds new continuity rather than just paving over the old and pretending it doesn't exist.
Yes, racism is bad. Pretending a persons race doesn't influence who they are is worse. |
My major quibble with Hollywood is that, when it comes to actors, the people who do the hiring are able to discriminate freely based on race, gender, age, height, weight, and a variety of other factors. In any other industry, this would be a cause for an outcry, but we seem to accept it in our entertainment.
My basic premise is that, when looking for an actor or actress, the major determining factor should be ability - how well they are able to pull off the role. If a role requires gravitas, you look to Anthony Hopkins or Laurence Fishburne, because they do gravitas well. If a role requires significant physicality/stunt work/martial arts, there are any number of actors you could look to, from Wesley Snipes (when he gets out of jail) to Jet Li to Jason Statham. Race shouldn't be a consideration.
My rule about whether a fictional property should worry about changes to the race of any of the actors is this: If it is *about* race and racism, you may want to look carefully at the casting. If it is about historical figures, you want to find someone who can act the part and look it with minimal prosthetic alteration. If it's based on a novel, comic book or television series, why the heck not? Wild Wild West had its issues, but they weren't predicated around Will Smith's race; it just wasn't that good a movie and didn't really capture the feel of the show. Why would a black or hispanic actor playing Conan be bad? If Conan does the requisite smiting of bad guys and gets the girl, who cares?
The problem, and Lastjustice said this first, is that for too long the default setting for characters was white. The problem with switching Luke Cage to a white actor is that the character is, at least in part, about race - that's how he was conceived and portrayed in comics for years. He's from Harlem, was in a street gang, et cetera. He was deliberately conceived to be a black character, and his race is an important facet of who Luke Cage is.
But, let's take Angel for example. His story is that he's from a wealthy family and was disowned for growing wings. Nothing in that story cares whether his wealthy family is white, black, Asian, or purple. Race just isn't important to Angel's story - he's about class and being rejected for being a mutant. It wouldn't make any difference if he was cast in a race-blind manner.
For some characters and some stories, race does matter. For some, it doesn't - and if it isn't important, why not cast whoever fills the role best, regardless of race?
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See that bold bit right there? You just answered your own question from your other post. In America, being white isn't generally seen as a defining trait because it's long been considered "the norm".|
Originally Posted by Lastjustice
(as someone who feels like an outsider may be they find comfort in another who doesn't belong to the norm too.).
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edit Also, what Smersh just said.
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All things being equal, this would be an ideal solution. But things aren't equal. The "whites only" club of characters have a 50-plus year head start, making them more popular and profitable.|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
No, it should not be jumped at. Taking the opportunity to create new characters that embrace their heritage should be jumped at.
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Saying "go start your own club" is kind of being a jerk. Just take down the "whites only" sign.
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Image is often a large part of a fictional character, and thus appearance is an important criterion for 'filling the role best'.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
For some characters and some stories, race does matter. For some, it doesn't - and if it isn't important, why not cast whoever fills the role best, regardless of race?
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Originally Posted by Lycantropus
...
I actually remember hearing folks complain about the Kingpin. I think Michael Clark Duncan did a good job with the character, but if you were a Daredevil fan, the change was obvious and without any transitional reasoning. I think the change was contextually incongruent. ... |
I remember when I saw the trailer for that and was like, "hey he's not black in the cartoons (okay so I only watched the Spider-Man cartoons and remember King Pin being white guy but still
)."After watching the movie, yes I agree I think the actor did a great job and fit the role well...as far as he was 'black' and not 'white' like in the comics? meh...I never read any comics so it didn't bother me 'too much'.
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At what cost? So it's perfectly ok to steam roll and crow bar in any secondary character's background if they re white but changes to minorities aren't? Im sorry that's bunk. I mean makes it seems like there's something wrong if everyone in a story is white.(sure there's plenty of stories where it happens still.) Which in real life it's highly common for there to be a ton of people of the same race flock together. Why can't we just have characters be what they are for them being compelling first and for most. If they happen to be diverse secondary.|
Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Because reducing diversity is bad. Increasing diversity is good.
Seriously, 95% of the best known superheroes and their supporting cast are white. It's an embarrassing reminder of the past, and any chance to alter some characters (like starting a new movie franchise) should be jumped at. |
Embarrassing past? Sheesh white guilt much? I've been on the receiving end of racism as a white man, and it cuts both ways. People who outnumber the others and have power trample the minority, its just life as power is color blind. I don't feel the least bit guilty for whats been done as there's tons of awful things in the past. I didn't cause them, and people have collectively gotten better about it.(and I currently don't have the ability to travel thru time to change them heh.) Unlike spiderman I don't get to inherit the sin of my father. I take full responbility for my own wrong doings and try to do right by people regardless of their background. White people are not indebted to world or the super villain race just because all the wrong doings of the past are well documented.
I come up with characters for stories and in game, and being a white male majority of them are white.(in terms of gender I'm probably about 50/50.) I don't see as racism , so I can understand comic book writers writing what they know. To automatically say all done out of racism is not quite the case. I feel comfortable writing what I know, as most the character I come up with are based off people I know. I don't have that many black friends, so I don't have as many sources to draw inspiration from. Does that somehow make me a bad person? I don't think so.
So to just toss all the older generation comic book writers under the bus like that is wrong. They were products of their time for better or worse. All we can do is learn from them and try to be better. To lord it over people now isn't right as it's just compounding the original problem. Which is actually an idea I have for a story...but thats another thread heh.
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Ironicly the king pin was voiced by a black man in the cartoons heh. I guess was one of the prophetic moments where voice actors predicted something accidentally. (wolverine being an aussie, visionaries peter cullen voiced a character that transformed into a gorilla.)
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Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
I remember when I saw the trailer for that and was like, "hey he's not black in the cartoons (okay so I only watched the Spider-Man cartoons and remember King Pin being white guy but still
)."After watching the movie, yes I agree I think the actor did a great job and fit the role well...as far as he was 'black' and not 'white' like in the comics? meh...I never read any comics so it didn't bother me 'too much'. |
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I don't feel being an outsider is something unique to other races. I was named after the book stranger in a strangeland, and that's how I felt my entire life.
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Originally Posted by Furio
See that bold bit right there? You just answered your own question from your other post. In America, being white isn't generally seen as a defining trait because it's long been considered "the norm".
edit Also, what Smersh just said. |
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If race shouldn't be a deciding factor neither should species.
Then again, if I wanted to be very cynical, I could point out that you're saying changing Lois Lane to a non-white race is equivalent to changing her to an animal. Rather unfortunate implications.
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