Threat depends on a number of factors, and it's not just a binary thing.
In short, the formula for Threat (in a very minimalized fashion) is this:
Threat = Damage * AT Mod * AI Mod * RangeMod * DebuffMod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000).
Now, given your scenario, I would imagine that a few things happened. First, the Tanker jumped in, and got sight aggro, or maybe even a single tic of damage from his damage aura hit Reichsman, and then the Tanker started leading him away (possibly not having Reichsman in his aggro aura in the transit period). Thus, when you hit him with the Debuff, the Tanker's aggro had decayed to the point where you could steal aggro from him.
Does that sound possible?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
It happens. It sucks when it does, but I wouldn't worry about it to much.
This is why when I run Master of Taskforces, I always say "Attempting a MoTF" so people know it's an attempt not a promise, and hopefully have them not feel as bad if they do die.
As for the stealing aggro. You're a Brute, you generate aggro as well, not to mention, don't believe the hype.
Aggro can be ripped off any tank with the right factors.
My Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker couldn't keep aggro on Romi, with 2 aggro auras, taunt and attacking before anyone else did anything, once the Shield Scrapper got into range of Romi, who immediately said "Haha Ice Tanker pffft. I want the Shield Scrapper"
I've also seen Blasters just pull off aggro on my ice tanker.
My main was Confronting/Range Blasting Recluse for a good 3 minutes, a shield scrapper just ran by Recluse on the way to the next tower, didn't attack him, Recluse was just hit with the Shielder's AAO, aggro was ripped that easily.
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Tankers need to be active to ensure that they hold aggro. This seems especially true on entities like AVs and GMs, though I haven't looked into why. (If they have Taunt resistance, for example, taunts would last less long against them.) If a Tanker or other aggro-holding character goes too long without dealing any damage, and/or does not refresh their taunts in some other way, the mob in question could get to a point where it "hates" some other character more. The more stuff that character is doing to the AV, the more likely that is.
Which is just a more wordy way to say what Aett did.
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Let me guess: you're a shield def brute? If so your AAO is going to strip aggro off the tank easily enough by itself, not to mention adding Darkest Night on top of it. If you have a strong single-target attack set on top of it, I'm not sure I think the tank could get aggro back.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Threat = Damage * AT Mod * AI Mod * RangeMod * DebuffMod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000).
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Being a Brute, you could have also had a Taunt aura yourself. So if you did and you hit Romi with it you could have negated the Taunt Duration factor there. After that, it's just AT Mod vs. Damage vs. DebuffMod.
Just to clerify, if the tank is taunting and attacking, nothing is going to pull agro of the tank. However, some tanks think they don't need taunt, or don't need to use it. Running a MoKahn with a tank who isn't taunting taunt would be rolling the dice to begin with.
That said, you probably should have waited until someone said go, or until others were going if you were unsure.
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While I agree that a Tank on any Master run should be using Taunt, in regular gameplay, I don't think it's as important.
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Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Just to clerify, if the tank is taunting and attacking, nothing is going to pull agro of the tank. However, some tanks think they don't need taunt, or don't need to use it. Running a MoKahn with a tank who isn't taunting taunt would be rolling the dice to begin with.
That said, you probably should have waited until someone said go, or until others were going if you were unsure. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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A brute with the same threat mods as the tank, better damage and their own ST punchvoke, and AAO/DN could easily pull aggro. Heck, my BS/SD scrapper with lesser threat mods and no DN is more than capable of pulling aggro off a tank who is taunting but may have it weakly slotted and/or isn't chain-taunting, so...
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Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Just to clerify, if the tank is taunting and attacking, nothing is going to pull agro of the tank.
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My aggro stealing story -
During 2xp weekend, some of my peeps decided to try a +4 KHTF, to see what kind of inf it generated. There was a Stoner on the team, using Granite, I brought my Traps/ Def. When Mary got to level 40 (in other words, +6 to team), she gave me her full attention. The tank was spamming Taunt and attacking, not to mention Mud Pots. Dangdest thing I've seen. I'm guessing the purple patch made Taunt duration short enough that my debuff hate took precedence.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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If the tank didn't start off with the Dimensional Grounding Ray then Reichsmann would be immune to everything, including Taunt effects. Your Darkest Night would have had him switch aggro onto you easily.|
Originally Posted by Breth
Ok, this has been bothering me for a week now. I was invited to join an MO Khan, i join and tell the team it's my first Khan TF, theres another Brute on the team, so i state that i will follow him and do what he does. I'm also the only non level 50 character on the TF. It all goes fine until the blaster dies and i realise that MO means no deaths. We finish the TF regardless.
Later in the day i'm invited to join another one, a lot of the same peeps in it too. I'm more confident now but still play with caution. We get to the final room, the leader says let' s do it but carefully. Stone armour tank jumps in and starts leading Reichs toward one of the other held AV's, i place Darkest Night on Reichs, bam he hits me, i die and a few jokes about my paper armour ensue, then a couple of comments as to how i should have let the tank take full aggro. I thought he had it, i certainly didn't wail on him straight away, not before others and the tank was leading him somewhere. Did Darkest Night take the aggro off the tank? I'm a melee toon, was i just unfortunate that i got hit? I felt so responsible for letting the team down in the final hurdle but really didn't see what i did wrong or what i could have done differently. It really shook my confidence and made me fear ever joining another MO TF. Any thoughts? |
Always open with Dimensional Grounding Ray so your normal powers work against Reichsmann, then do what you need to do.
There are some enemies that taunt just seems super weak against. Mary Macomber and the war walkers in the new taskforces come to mind.
Also, shield scrappers have a ridiculously strong taunt aura, as strong as the tank version last I checked. Brutes probably share it.
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Presumably due to their higher level. Chances are the taunt duration was reduced by this.|
Originally Posted by Elfis_Presley
Mary Macomber and the war walkers in the new taskforces come to mind.
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While the Taunt (and Confront, and similar) powers wouldn't be bothered significantly, a taunt aura could fade out nearly in its entirety as its potency is based on duration remaining. Especially Willpower.
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Amen!|
Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Just to clerify, if the tank is taunting and attacking, nothing is going to pull agro of the tank. However, some tanks think they don't need taunt, or don't need to use it. Running a MoKahn with a tank who isn't taunting taunt would be rolling the dice to begin with.
That said, you probably should have waited until someone said go, or until others were going if you were unsure. |
Too many Tanks do not even bother to acquire Taunt, and solely depended on their powers and inherent taunt abilities. While these forms of taunt can be effective, they are not that strong and Blasters can easily rip aggroe away from them, healers can out heal the tankers damage and inherent taunt and find themselves in a pickle real fast, etc.
I would suggest, before you "open up" on something that a Tank has alledgedly gotten a mob's aggroe to observe if the tank is actually taunting, the graphic for taunt is quite unique. If you don't see them taunting, then you know that they are depending on their inherent and power specific secondary taunt effects, and then as the saying goes: "Buyer Beware"
When I play my tank, I close in with the greatest threatening mob and swing first with my hardest hitting power, then I follow with my Taunt power. So it would be unwise to open up immediately after I swung with an area attack for instance, for while I may hold the aggroe from biggest meanie the others are not firmly taunted. But next round after I taunted, go for it! I tend to re-taunt cycle after 3 attacks...
Hugs
Stormy
Not that a shield tank would be as likely to need it as say, WP, but... taunt is worth picking up on a shield/metal weapon set tank just because of what it does: *clink* *clink* *clink*
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Except that there is no heal aggro in this game. There is not enemy that wants to kill somebody for using a healing power. So that is moot. Also, because of the Threat formula, the only enemies a Blaster can pull off of a Tanker's aggro aura are the ones that aren't hit by it. Here's a tip to everyone out there: the aggro cap is 17, and Tanker aggro auras have a target cap of 10. That's 7 enemies potentially that the Tanker might not have much threat from. And even if he uses Taunt, he might not be hitting the ones that he doesn't have aggro on. Just because a Tanker has Taunt doesn't mean he knows who to target with it.|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Amen!
Too many Tanks do not even bother to acquire Taunt, and solely depended on their powers and inherent taunt abilities. While these forms of taunt can be effective, they are not that strong and Blasters can easily rip aggroe away from them, healers can out heal the tankers damage and inherent taunt and find themselves in a pickle real fast, etc. |
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| I would suggest, before you "open up" on something that a Tank has allegedly gotten a mob's aggro to observe if the tank is actually taunting, the graphic for taunt is quite unique. If you don't see them taunting, then you know that they are depending on their inherent and power specific secondary taunt effects, and then as the saying goes: "Buyer Beware" |
Let's use some numbers here. A Blaster deals 200 damage with an attack with no debuffs, and a Tanker does 100 damage.
Blaster Threat: 200 * 1 (AT Mod)* 1 (DebuffMod)* RangeMod * AI Mod * 1 (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000) = 200 Threat
Tanker Threat: 100 * 4 * 1 * RangeMod * AIMod * (13.5 * 1,000) = 5,400,000 Threat.
You're telling me that the blaster would pull aggro from him? IF you can show me that in-game, then it shows that something in the formula is broken, not that the Tanker needs Taunt.
Taunt just gives the Tanker a higher modifier. It is not an instant and permanent aggro-gaining tool.
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| When I play my tank, I close in with the greatest threatening mob and swing first with my hardest hitting power, then I follow with my Taunt power. So it would be unwise to open up immediately after I swung with an area attack for instance, for while I may hold the aggroe from biggest meanie the others are not firmly taunted. But next round after I taunted, go for it! I tend to re-taunt cycle after 3 attacks... |
Taunt isn't an "I win aggro" button. It helps, for sure, but you've still got to be smart about aggro.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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If the formula is based on Taunt Duration Remaining, however, and the Target has been out of Aura for 13.4981 seconds (quite possible when trying to draw one AV to another), then the blaster wins Aggro. Furthermore, if Taunt is shaken off faster on account of level differences, a +4 AV would lose said Aggro in about 7 seconds. A strong "kill the squishy" AI mod (which is an unknown in strength, AFAIK) could also potentially overwhelm taunt, if such a thing were programmed.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Except that there is no heal aggro in this game. There is not enemy that wants to kill somebody for using a healing power. So that is moot. Also, because of the Threat formula, the only enemies a Blaster can pull off of a Tanker's aggro aura are the ones that aren't hit by it. Here's a tip to everyone out there: the aggro cap is 17, and Tanker aggro auras have a target cap of 10. That's 7 enemies potentially that the Tanker might not have much threat from. And even if he uses Taunt, he might not be hitting the ones that he doesn't have aggro on. Just because a Tanker has Taunt doesn't mean he knows who to target with it.
Yes, because it's easy to strip a Tanker of aggro when he's got (13.5 * 1,000) more threat than you than (45 * 1,000) more threat than you. Let's use some numbers here. A Blaster deals 200 damage with an attack with no debuffs, and a Tanker does 100 damage. Blaster Threat: 200 * 1 (AT Mod)* 1 (DebuffMod)* RangeMod * AI Mod * 1 (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000) = 200 Threat Tanker Threat: 100 * 4 * 1 * RangeMod * AIMod * (13.5 * 1,000) = 5,400,000 Threat. You're telling me that the blaster would pull aggro from him? IF you can show me that in-game, then it shows that something in the formula is broken, not that the Tanker needs Taunt. Taunt just gives the Tanker a higher modifier. It is not an instant and permanent aggro-gaining tool. Fantastic. Even if you hit completely different targets with gauntlet and Taunt, you're only up to about 15 targets. If the Blaster opens up with an AoE and hits 16 targets, that's still one guy who could potentially turn and shoot the Blaster. And heck, if you do hit the same exact targets (especially since your first attack and Taunt are both hitting at least one person in common), then there are potentially six - seven enemies that could turn and hit the Blaster. Taunt isn't an "I win aggro" button. It helps, for sure, but you've still got to be smart about aggro. |
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I agree with all of this, and I do not argue against these points. My only point was that using the Taunt power inefficiently isn't going to help things. Basically, if someone is in your aggro aura, the Blaster is highly unlikely to strip aggro from you, and using Taunt isn't going to change that.|
Originally Posted by Korith
If the formula is based on Taunt Duration Remaining, however, and the Target has been out of Aura for 13.4981 seconds (quite possible when trying to draw one AV to another), then the blaster wins Aggro. Furthermore, if Taunt is shaken off faster on account of level differences, a +4 AV would lose said Aggro in about 7 seconds. A strong "kill the squishy" AI mod (which is an unknown in strength, AFAIK) could also potentially overwhelm taunt, if such a thing were programmed.
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If they wander out of the aggro aura (which should be apparent to everyone on the team, since they can see where the mobs are), then the blaster should be accounting for that. In 'normal' missions, you won't experience a +4 AV. If you are at the point where you are going to encounter them regularly, you should have Taunt, and I won't argue that either. At that point, Taunt is going to be the only truly reliable way to hold the aggro (both due to its autohit nature and it's length of duration). But on a minion? Taunt isn't needed, and unless it's used intelligently, provides much less usefulness than people give it credit for.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
With going into the formulas, I'll just add that my /WP Brute pulls aggro off tanks regularly enough. Usually the Tank can get it back relatively quickly but sometimes I'm suprized at how long an AV will stay on me even as I hear the plink plink of the Tank's Taunt going off.
I've never been satisfied with the aggro formula the devs gave. There are times in game where you can plainly see a 6-slotted taunt with tier 4 nerve for extra taunt enhancement fail to take aggro from a character that doesn't have taunt, which by their formula, should be impossible. I have done this on my tank while also affecting the enemy with my own darkest night debuff, gloom debuff, -fly from hurl boulder, and still had an enemy not turn around. Only against some taunt-resistant enemies though, like the war walkers I mentioned earlier.
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Oh heck yes don't even worry about it. Sounds like you were on a good team that didn't take the failed attempt badly so why should you? I took my SD/SS tank on a Master Of Kahn when it was the WST. We not only got to the final room but down to the last AV.. then one of the Squishies (not sure if it was a Defender or a Controller) got a bit too close to Reichmann when the lightning hit and "FAILED CHALLENGE" .No big deal about 1 minute later we had mission complete and everyone was happy|
Originally Posted by BrandX
It happens. It sucks when it does, but I wouldn't worry about it to much.
This is why when I run Master of Taskforces, I always say "Attempting a MoTF" so people know it's an attempt not a promise, and hopefully have them not feel as bad if they do die. As for the stealing aggro. You're a Brute, you generate aggro as well, not to mention, don't believe the hype. Aggro can be ripped off any tank with the right factors. My Ice/Ice/Arctic Tanker couldn't keep aggro on Romi, with 2 aggro auras, taunt and attacking before anyone else did anything, once the Shield Scrapper got into range of Romi, who immediately said "Haha Ice Tanker pffft. I want the Shield Scrapper" I've also seen Blasters just pull off aggro on my ice tanker. My main was Confronting/Range Blasting Recluse for a good 3 minutes, a shield scrapper just ran by Recluse on the way to the next tower, didn't attack him, Recluse was just hit with the Shielder's AAO, aggro was ripped that easily. |
As to what BrandX mention I can personally attest to the fact that a Blaster can steal aggro from even the best of tanks. I just finished up an ITF earlier and was on my Fire/Fire Blaster. I managed on several occasions to draw off the Elite Bosses with my attacks. In most of those cases I was able to survive long enough to rush over close to the tanker and give the aggro RIGHT BACK.. cause I have no desire to TANK with my Blaster. Her motto is "If anyone wants me I'll be the one in the back setting everything on fire and running like heck if anything gets past the rest of you" LOL
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In a team of seven Tankers and one Blaster, the Blaster will steal all the aggro. All of it. If the Blaster doesn't, he's not doing his job right.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
As to what BrandX mention I can personally attest to the fact that a Blaster can steal aggro from even the best of tanks.
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Mmm...
I see aggroe stollen all the time, and I seen healers stealing it. In fact, there is a TF, want to say STF, were several experienced leaders had adviced Emps to not use their max heals or they will steal aggroe.
And yes I was playing my Psi/Emp Defender and was providing my weak heals to the tanker holding LR enterteined, a spider crawled over my keyboard, which I immediately rproceded to freak out and scream, but my son valiantly ran to me and disposed of the hairy yucky critter. Unfortunately by then, my charge, the tanker was about to die, barely alive by a hair's width, and I went pow with my strongest heal and taking damage to myself in the process, next thing I know I am dead. LR took insult of my denying his impending kill and took it out on me, with the all too common one-shot-kill.
While I keep being told, there is no anti-healer code, I keep seeing healers getting aggroe and getting of course auto-killed since they are overly-fraggile. If there is no code, there must be instead a combination of events or circumstances, that does a great impression of such an imaginary code.
Hugs
Stormy
I have never, ever witnessed "heal aggro". Never.
The more likely scenario with Recluse is you got caught too close to one of his PBAOE(s) and/or when the Tanks hp took a dive, he focused more on chewing insps/self healing than continuing to taunt.
The "experienced" tf leaders are quite simply, in a word, wrong. I'm going to suspect this "heal aggro" is more that when they use AP, they get hit by other aoes and are unable to heal back due to using AP.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Provide video of this happening that doesn't show any other reason for the "healer" to die, and I'll believe you. I've never seen evidence of this, though.
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Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Mmm...
I see aggroe stollen all the time, and I seen healers stealing it. In fact, there is a TF, want to say STF, were several experienced leaders had adviced Emps to not use their max heals or they will steal aggroe. And yes I was playing my Psi/Emp Defender and was providing my weak heals to the tanker holding LR enterteined, a spider crawled over my keyboard, which I immediately rproceded to freak out and scream, but my son valiantly ran to me and disposed of the hairy yucky critter. Unfortunately by then, my charge, the tanker was about to die, barely alive by a hair's width, and I went pow with my strongest heal and taking damage to myself in the process, next thing I know I am dead. LR took insult of my denying his impending kill and took it out on me, with the all too common one-shot-kill. While I keep being told, there is no anti-healer code, I keep seeing healers getting aggroe and getting of course auto-killed since they are overly-fraggile. If there is no code, there must be instead a combination of events or circumstances, that does a great impression of such an imaginary code. Hugs Stormy |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Ok, this has been bothering me for a week now. I was invited to join an MO Khan, i join and tell the team it's my first Khan TF, theres another Brute on the team, so i state that i will follow him and do what he does. I'm also the only non level 50 character on the TF. It all goes fine until the blaster dies and i realise that MO means no deaths. We finish the TF regardless.
Later in the day i'm invited to join another one, a lot of the same peeps in it too. I'm more confident now but still play with caution. We get to the final room, the leader says let' s do it but carefully. Stone armour tank jumps in and starts leading Reichs toward one of the other held AV's, i place Darkest Night on Reichs, bam he hits me, i die and a few jokes about my paper armour ensue, then a couple of comments as to how i should have let the tank take full aggro. I thought he had it, i certainly didn't wail on him straight away, not before others and the tank was leading him somewhere.
Did Darkest Night take the aggro off the tank? I'm a melee toon, was i just unfortunate that i got hit? I felt so responsible for letting the team down in the final hurdle but really didn't see what i did wrong or what i could have done differently.
It really shook my confidence and made me fear ever joining another MO TF.
Any thoughts?