Want a Notice of the Well solo? That'll be...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-02-10 19:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
I've seen more people opposed to the general spirit of the system, such that it seems designed for and around teams, much more so than people are directly opposed to teaming at all ever. Once or a few times ever, I'm sure even hardcore soloists will concede, but it's the principle of it that bothers me, in particular. Large-team raid grind is something that doesn't sit will with quite a few people, and forced teaming - a prospect which seems like it will only get more pronounced - is a large part of that.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
I'm not being facetious when I say that I believe that refusing to team up long enough to get a Notice of the Well is absurd. That was precisely my point. It would take a couple of hours, frequently much less time. This is a MMORPG, whose genre is based on the concept of a lot of people playing a role-playing game together. It boggles my mind that some people expect to be able to get these rewards without ever teaming up, literally never.
|
Furthermore, the Rares and above require not "just teaming," they require very specific teaming for very specific tasks. I have a friend of mine with whom I team half the time simply because we often end up playing at the same time, but just teaming with him won't get me a NotW, because it's not the right kind of teaming. It's not just the act of socialising and playing with others that's required, it's a specific TF every week, and usually not a very good one. And I have a sneaking suspicion that the WTF will stop handing out NotW once the proper Trials show up, which means it will require proper raid grind to get.
My personal stance has always been this: I want to team. When I feel like it, for what I feel like, when I feel like doing it. That, it seems, is not teaming enough for the end game.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Yes. You're asking for too much stuff. You're calling in more favors than you're actually owed. It's political capital, and it can be used up if you try to take more than you give.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
An influential person can ask for stuff and just get it. If Superman shows up at the Governor's office and asks for something, chances are it'll just be given to him. But as he asks for more and more things, people start to think 'why am I doing all this for him instead of him going out and doing it?' When Superman has asked the Governor for 20 yachts, the governor is likely to start considering saying 'no' to the 21st.
e: Phrased better by Bosstone, above. |
Why does a magical character need to ask someone else for certain charms if they are self tuaght? Or use a unique hybrid of spells?
Why does a tech character need to scrounge stuff off people when he's, say, a millionaire who can just buy or manufacture the materials?
Why does a ninja need anything when all his 'powers' come from intense training and focus of his inner-chi?
Answer; Enhancements are a totally OOC and Meta-game mechanic. The stuff we use to pay for these things is a totally OOC meta-game monitary system.
And, as Sam points out; the Market.
It's money. You can call it Happy Pixie Stardust and it will still be what it is; In Game Money.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
Quote:
No.
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Are you saying Reward Merits are magically different?
|
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Quote:
Didn't we have this 'discussion' earlier in the thread? In game mechanics terms, yes, it's 'money'. In-universe, though, it's a measure of how much 'pull' you have. Whether it's fame, notoriety, information on the skeletons in everyone's closets, whatever. In-universe it's not money, it's a measure of power (for various definitions of power).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
INF is money. It may not have been at one point, but with the advent of the Market, it became money. Trying to pretend it isn't is on the same level of wrong as the Church of Unitology continuously trying to pretend that the Markers aren't evil.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by TonyV
I'm not being facetious when I say that I believe that refusing to team up long enough to get a Notice of the Well is absurd. That was precisely my point. It would take a couple of hours, frequently much less time. This is a MMORPG, whose genre is based on the concept of a lot of people playing a role-playing game together. It boggles my mind that some people expect to be able to get these rewards without ever teaming up, literally never.
|
Quote:
Look: I do not like the fact that Inf is money. Believe me when I say this. I liked Jack's original interpretation, and everything they've done with it since then has been a mistake. I want you to be right, I want to agree with you. But I can't. The developers simply made sure that Influence is money. They don't call it money, but then Final Fantasy games don't call Gil money, yet it IS money.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Favors are currency just as much as dollar bills. And while I've been trying to respect your viewpoint throughout the whole solo debate over the past few weeks, I find it increasingly harder to give you much credibility when you're going to make patently ridiculous statements like that last sentence.
|
I'm not saying you're stupid. If anything, I'm glad you can accept that. But I can't. Not with the rampant disregard with which Positron has been treating lore and canon while jackhammering his new systems into the game. Invariably, they smash some cool idea in the process of going in, and the fate of Inf was one of those.
I simply cannot suspend my disbelief enough to accept "influence" being bid in a silent auction. This IS wrong, and if feels wrong.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Since the auction house is pretty much as meta-gamey as the enhancement system I don't see an issue here.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I simply cannot suspend my disbelief enough to accept "influence" being bid in a silent auction. This IS wrong, and if feels wrong.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
If Superman shows up at the Governor's office and asks for something, chances are it'll just be given to him. But as he asks for more and more things, people start to think 'why am I doing all this for him instead of him going out and doing it?'
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
I really wish you would treat your opinion as your opinion instead of objective fact. You can't accept it; that does not mean it is wrong.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I simply cannot suspend my disbelief enough to accept "influence" being bid in a silent auction. This IS wrong, and if feels wrong.
|
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Quote:
So what your basically saying is...It's fine for Inf to be meta-game when used for enhancements, IOs and marketing...and the suddenly not so for the Notices?|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
Since the auction house is pretty much as meta-gamey as the enhancement system I don't see an issue here.
|
That makes less than no sense whatsoever.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
If that's the case then, Arcana, then I'd have to agree with the idea others have posted that call for a cool down on crafted Notices of the Well to match that of one earned.
Either a crafted Notice should be allowable once a week in tandem with an earned Notice, or it can replace the earned Notice slot so that only one Notice can be earned a week either way.
Even so, that's a lot of hours to earn all the shards to craft from scratch on a level 50 that's not really doing anything that's very new. At least with I20 shards can be earned while exemplared, even if at a leasser rate. If the low end rate is less than 1 per hour, I'd really hate to see what the low end exemplared rate is.
I wonder, does that also means while doing Flashbacks? If so, at least someone can take their 50 and hit up all the content they missed along the way, even solo.
Then again, I seriously question the need for a rare alpha for someone who (doesn't want to team for whatever the reason) and plays at the lowest possible difficulty. I wonder if such players still use SOs, or even common IOs and then wouldn't their build benefit more from working towards some set IO bonuses, which would probably be more possible to obtain, than trying to earn the rare alpha.
Quote:
My apologies, then. I did not think anyone still held to that interpretation, but if you can, then I can respect that.
|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
I really wish you would treat your opinion as your opinion instead of objective fact. You can't accept it; that does not mean it is wrong.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Okay, let's revamp the entire system so that some things are 'bought' with Inf* and other stuff is bought with the new currency, Cash. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
So what your basically saying is...It's fine for Inf to be meta-game when used for enhancements, IOs and marketing...and the suddenly not so for the Notices?
That makes less than no sense whatsoever. |
The Well thing happens to be an example where the game mechanics and in-universe lore regarding Inf* just happen to match up.
Quote:
We're going to need to agree to diagree, again. Because I cannot disagree with that, and using Inf in the crafting of a Notice, strongly enough.
|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
Okay, let's revamp the entire system so that some things are 'bought' with Inf* and other stuff is bought with the new currency, Cash.
The Well thing happens to be an example where the game mechanics and in-universe lore regarding Inf* just happen to match up. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
You could make it so any Notices crafted rather than earned don't actually COST inf, but if your inf total falls below the cost you lose access to the power you made with that Notice until your total gets back up to however much you'd spent on Notices.
You could get out of this debt by earning Notices through the WST.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Quote:
Their having attached a badge for attending 50 WST runs that you didn't have to be on all but guarantees that this is not the case.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And I have a sneaking suspicion that the WTF will stop handing out NotW once the proper Trials show up, which means it will require proper raid grind to get.
|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I do have to admit that imagining Captain Dynamic running up to a hot dog stand and going "Gimme a dog with mustard and relish! (-5 Inf)" is causing me to giggle right now.
e: From now on I am going to imagine inspirations as snacks. Blues are hot dogs, fuel for crime fighting. Reds are donuts, the sugar rush gets you pumped up for punching bad guys. Purples are sports drinks...
Quote:
I suppose the difference is that I can separate the game fiction and the game mechanics pretty easily. The concept of influence as capital is not a difficult fiction to swallow; at the same time, the actual mechanics of trading between players is a game mechanic that may or may not intersect with the actual fiction. It should line up where it can, but it doesn't always. That's the trouble with design by committee and a game that outlives its original creators.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
My apologies, then. I did not think anyone still held to that interpretation, but if you can, then I can respect that.
|
The game needs more money sinks. The Notice conversion is an attempt at introducing one. As it happens, existing fiction works with that. It's not really justification in and of itself; the fact that the game needs money sinks is all the justification I require to be content with that. It just happens that the mechanic can be rationalized into the fiction as well.
Mechanically, adding inf to the Notice conversion is no different from being able to trade reward merits + inf for alignment merits. I think that's a bit harder to line up with fiction, since there is no given fiction for merits, but eh.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Quote:
To some degree I actually agree with you. I like the original idea of Inf being whatever you want it to be (i.e. for Bruce Wayne it's dollars, for Superman it's actual Influence).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Look: I do not like the fact that Inf is money. Believe me when I say this. I liked Jack's original interpretation, and everything they've done with it since then has been a mistake. I want you to be right, I want to agree with you. But I can't. The developers simply made sure that Influence is money. They don't call it money, but then Final Fantasy games don't call Gil money, yet it IS money.
I'm not saying you're stupid. If anything, I'm glad you can accept that. But I can't. Not with the rampant disregard with which Positron has been treating lore and canon while jackhammering his new systems into the game. Invariably, they smash some cool idea in the process of going in, and the fate of Inf was one of those. I simply cannot suspend my disbelief enough to accept "influence" being bid in a silent auction. This IS wrong, and if feels wrong. |
On the other hand for a market to work you need a currency of some sort (for an interesting example of a game that tried to do without see Diablo 2) and using Inf makes a lot more sense than introducing some new currency.
Personally I just ignore the illogic of Inf being traded but if you really wanted to you could no doubt find an in-character explanation. For example, WWs isn't actually a market, it's a means by which Heroes help each other improve their skills whether by providing new gear of some sort, or helping each other hone their skills. All heroes are welcome to request assistance but a hero is expected to "pay it forward" either by helping other heroes in turn or by aiding the city (completing missions). A hero who repeatedly asks for help but never offers it picks up a bad reputation, however, which means other heroes are unwilling to help him (lack of inf) whereas a hero who freely assists others but never asks for anything in return builds up a stock of goodwill so if he asks for something very specialized he is more likely to get it (i.e. buying purples).
In this context your market slots are an abstract representing the amount of time your hero has available to participate (participating more makes him more efficient which is why the market badges increase your slots). Marketeers meanwhile are the administrators of the system, prioritizing help to those who put in the most effort (flipping) and coordinating the efforts of multiple heroes (crafting).
EDIT: For Villains it represents the same basic concept but is instead based on a complex system of favors, money and blackmail. For Praetorians it represents the Powers Division cross-training policy. Don't think to hard about why the three markets are linked, however.
Quote:
Honestly I still consider it like that. Then again I ignore a lot of the lore for various reasons anyway. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
To some degree I actually agree with you. I like the original idea of Inf being whatever you want it to be (i.e. for Bruce Wayne it's dollars, for Superman it's actual Influence).
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
EDIT: For Villains it represents the same basic concept but is instead based on a complex system of favors, money and blackmail. For Praetorians it represents the Powers Division cross-training policy. Don't think to hard about why the tree markets are linked, however.
|
Quote:
....That is an utterly, utterly horrible idea. Theres no precedent. It makes no mechanical or in-game sense. It an abitrary and ultimately stupid 'incentive' that is less incentive and more outright penalty.
|
Originally Posted by Vanden
You could make it so any Notices crafted rather than earned don't actually COST inf, but if your inf total falls below the cost you lose access to the power you made with that Notice until your total gets back up to however much you'd spent on Notices.
You could get out of this debt by earning Notices through the WST. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
I'm going to agree with Tech here. Again, let me use the car example.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
....That is an utterly, utterly horrible idea. Theres no precedent. It makes no mechanical or in-game sense. It an abitrary and ultimately stupid 'incentive' that is less incentive and more outright penalty.
|
It would be like buying a new car, but since you may not have enough money, they'll give you the car but not the keys to use it. Stupid.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
Close. More like buying a car when you have a bank balance of, say, two million.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I'm going to agree with Tech here. Again, let me use the car example.
It would be like buying a new car, but since you may not have enough money, they'll give you the car but not the keys to use it. Stupid. |
When they balance dips below 1.5, they suddenly come along and take off the wheels and steal your keys. And when you get back to 2 million, they suddenly give them back.
It's just stupid, and ultimately pointless. I think this entire discussion has just degraded into 'How much punishment are you willing to take and what funny ideas can we come up with to make people rage' from certain people...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
I may not be a big fan of Jack these days, but one thing I'll hand that man - he kept his lore straight. Things made sense, things had an explanation, things had a story behind them. It felt like a living, breathing world. The story hasn't been as... Complete since the guy jumped ship.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
I suppose the difference is that I can separate the game fiction and the game mechanics pretty easily. The concept of influence as capital is not a difficult fiction to swallow; at the same time, the actual mechanics of trading between players is a game mechanic that may or may not intersect with the actual fiction. It should line up where it can, but it doesn't always. That's the trouble with design by committee and a game that outlives its original creators.
|
To me, however, it's just physically impossible to see abstract power over other people bid in a blind market environment, unless we want to say the Market is somehow influential enough itself. The original vision behind trading Influence was the concept of endorsement - an influential hero backs up a less influential one, so shops give the less influential hero credit as a favour for the more influential one. On the flip side, a very influential hero couldn't afford to hand out too many favours before his welcome wore out and he had to earn more respect by saving the city some more.
I could buy that. I've rationalised it. But when we started paying "Influence" at the Market and being charged listing fees and being taxed a trading fee and... No. My brain cannot compute that. I spin out and call it money, if for no reason other than because then I don't have to think about how much they've perverted the concept.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
For a market to work you need a currency of some sort (for an interesting example of a game that tried to do without see Diablo 2) and using Inf makes a lot more sense than introducing some new currency.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
When we level up, we get new powers. They can't really raise the level cap due to various mechanical reasons, so they're instead allowing us to get new powers without, technically, leveling up.|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
I don't consider the above post to be representative of any argument that's actually been put forward in this thread.
|
So, if Incarnate powers are locked off from a certain segment of the playerbase, then yes, it's very much like "I get level 30, you get level 50".
Now, they aren't technically locked off if we can get everything in the system via shards, but depending upon the costs associated with unlocking and slotting the other incarnate powers, they may be locked off in practicality. A lot of people are assuming that the other Incarnate powers will cost the exact same amount of shards for each level as Alpha powers. I think this is pretty presumptuous given the tradition for each successive increase in power taking longer in MMOs. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we still have no idea what it takes to unlock the slots themselves, since Shards aren't used to unlock the Alpha. Maybe they have a way for Shards to do that, but we don't know the number required for that, either.
That being said, I know that Arcanaville is not a proponent of locking (whether literally or practically) Incarnate powers off from players that don't want to/don't have time to team, so that response wasn't really very fair to her. She may be a proponent of locking the Rares or Very Rares off, however.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.