New AT idea brainstorming: What else is there?
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2011-02-08 21:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I am 100% on board for a Melee/Support or Support/Melee combo. I'd also go for Support/Assault, ala a Dominator with buffs/debuffs instead of control.
Re: ATs and power combos that solo AVs / Tankmages
The thing is I'm pretty sure that, at this point, most all ATs have soloed AVs and some have soloed GMs. The only ones I'm not certain have done it are Stalkers and HEATs, and I think even those two are capable of it (if they haven't already done it). Of those ATs, several of them can do it with just about any combo of power sets available to them, but most of them require heavy investment or some level of skill to do this. I guess that helps level the playing field in a way... If we're all capable of being tankmages... "When everyone's super, then no one will be."
What that means is, so long as their performance wasn't wildly out of proportion with the other ATs, then we probably wouldn't see any new AT eclipse the rest. More than being overpowered, I'm almost worried that any new AT would end up feeling like a jack of all trades, master of none, without the "often better than a master of one" line. Almost worried. And that's only because I am very much the sort who likes fulfilling a role or fitting into a niche. Looking at the VEATs, those fears are eased. 
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So, Scrappers and Brutes primarily, then? Followed by controllers and doms, defenders, corrs...|
Originally Posted by Rhysem
I'm.. pretty sure any of the various AT and powerset combos that solo AVs count as tankmages. I say this as a former Asheron's Call player, where the mages... were tankier than the melees with shields and out-damaged both them and the archers. Trust me, I know 'em when I see 'em, and I'm seeing 'em.
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Oh, wait, pretty much every AT and set combo in this game has the potential to be nasty.
So that arguement doesn't hold up so well.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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That's nine powers, or rather, one power set. I would imagine that most ATs get two power sets per character, at least.
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Originally Posted by Signpost
It's not tank level offense when your offense consists of temp powers, power pool attacks, and brawl.
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Oh, easy one!
The Pack - since we now have animals in the game you can make a pack of characters you design.
The number of the Pack differs on which ones you choose.
Select a Herd style pack and you get only 2 an attack/defense character and a buffing/debuffing one.
Choose Hunting pack you get damage doers with little to no protection but lots of damage some ranged and some melee I could see 4 or 5 of these as the level increases.
Hard mode: Slugger, aka street-fighter, aka bar brawler. No fancy-pants martial arts moves, just straight-up knuckle-sandwiches served piping hot. There are plenty of punching, hitting and slugging animations to make a full set already. Add in the existing kick animation for flavor, the "nutcracker."
Easy mode: Staff fighting, two flavors. 1. Natural-themed martial arts type of guy using a bo staff or kendo stick. 2. Magic dude (any type of classic sorcerer type such as Gandalf) using it as a projectile weapon or a buff/debuff doohickey.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
My favorite character at the moment is my crab spider because I a build where I have good ranged attacks coupled with decent defenses and status protection.
I would like an AT that allowed that. It would be blaster/corrupter/defender ranged sets coupled with scrapper/etc armor sets. You pick appropriate sets and pick appropriate scalars for the two sides to make it all reasonably balanced.
This wouldn't have to be rocket science. Just cook it up during a beta and start with a low point on the scalars and buff from there.
Too many alts to list.
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Yes, Melee/Summon - or perhaps Ranged/Summon too; what I think of as the Leader AT. The counterpart to an MM, where your pets support you (with either extra firepower or buffs/debuffs) while you go in and lead from the front. You could even mostly reuse the MM pets, perhaps tweaking their powers or swapping out some for new versions to enable them to work better as support.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I only really care about two potential frameworks:
Assault/Defence and Melee/Summon. |
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Here is the brainstorming I have been doing on and off the past couple of weeks. The next "Epic AT" (Special. unlockable. etc)
Origin ATs
Starting with tech that is in game. Look at the VEATs. How they basically have 4 powersets after lvl 24 + pool powers ti build their characters. I was thinking of using something like those. At Level 1 you choose 2 of 6 power sets.
In that attacks sets, you get a default power. Using similar tech to Change ammo. Using Technology for example the 4 options are: Hand, Pistol, Rifle, Tech Staff
Hand - the attack would be similar to Ironman or what is in most powersets.
Pistol - the attack fires from a pistol
Rifle - the attack fires from a rifle
Tech Staff - ala Nemesis
Also one of the powers in this set would be change ammo type option. Cold Rays, Heat Rays, Rad attacks, etc. Maybe not as a power. Maybe it should be locked down like the deilivery system. We don't want to make them overpowered.
Just using this as a basis, you get mose customization of your character.
I have not really thought too much about the other sets, but I would like to see Special Travel Powers available to them, Jet Packs, Jump Jets, Glider Wings, etc.
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I like the idea of melee/support.
I also like the idea of buff/buff.
Buff/Buff would have to be a veteran AT, as one could very easily make themselves unable to do damage and thus unable to solo (except with veteran powers). But it would be fun to play on a team. The Primary would have buff values like Defenders and the secondary would have buff values like corrs or controllers.
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That's more or less what I had in mind, yes. I say melee and not ranged because I want to force this character to take an active role, not stand behind his pets and shoot at range. I also want to rob a melee/support character of his actual Support powerset, meaning that he'll have to be in there, mixing it up, or otherwise play on one powerset alone.|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Yes, Melee/Summon - or perhaps Ranged/Summon too; what I think of as the Leader AT. The counterpart to an MM, where your pets support you (with either extra firepower or buffs/debuffs) while you go in and lead from the front. You could even mostly reuse the MM pets, perhaps tweaking their powers or swapping out some for new versions to enable them to work better as support.
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As for pets, the last time I suggested this, I envisioned mostly buffer pets, or at least pets on the order of Assault Bots, who do provide firepower, but mostly provide support. That way, the "Leader" will be the one doing the grunt work, but his pets will be with him to support him. The reverse of a Mastermind, as well.
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One thing we have to remember with these new ATs is that it's not just how WE envision the AT would be played based on how WE want to play it, as much as how the average player will try to break it and leverage some extra advantage. With a melee/summon AT, we'd ideally want the character to be in the melee, fighting, but players may want to let the henchmen fight and so avoid personal risk. Therefore, the AT must be designed to encourage people to fight, not just give them the opportunity to.
This is also true with assault/defence characters. We want to find a way to encourage people to fight both at range and in melee, and not fight like Scrappers or Blaster. That is to say, we don't want the character to just melee all the time and fire ranged attacks at point-blank range, but we also don't want the character constantly kiting and ignoring ranged attacks. If I had to redesign my old system which didn't work, I'd use the Fiery Embrace mechaninc, which is to say:
Have a power which gives an added damage component to ranged attacks and nothing to melee attacks. The more you use ranged attacks, the more that added damage component to ranged attacks drops and the more of an added damage component melee attacks get. And as you use melee attacks, that balance shifts back to ranged attacks. The idea was for damage to see-saw from ranged to melee to ranged to melee so as to encourage players to dive in for a scrap, pull back for a strafe, then dive back in. I'm not sure if that's possible.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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MM: Sonic indeed. Yes. Sonic. And Cold.
I'd also like it if they used the doppleganger tech to make a "Clone Summoning" power set, but that's a bit out of bounds of htis thread I guess...
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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The problem with the multiple selves idea is that it lacks any means defined means for the selves to attack. In comics and cartoons, a character who can create copies of himself, such as Billy Numerous from the Teen Titans, will usually just create thousands of copies and swarm his enemies with sheer numbers. Masterminds are limited to six henchmen in three tiers, which means those henchmen HAVE to have some sort of powers of their own.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
I'd also like it if they used the doppleganger tech to make a "Clone Summoning" power set, but that's a bit out of bounds of htis thread I guess...
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Powersets in City of Heroes tend to be defined by what they do. Assault Rifle shoots an assault rifle, Energy Melee hits things in melee with energy and so forth. A multiple selves Mastermind does... What, exactly? Yes, he summons henchmen just like every other Mastermind, but they do what to hurt the enemy? Punch and kick like unpowered individuals? Shoot energy and fire like Phantom Army? Use guns? There are far too many possibilities for a set this open to interpretation.
Now, if you're suggesting we get customization options where you can replace, say, Soldiers minions with copies of yourself, that I could get behind.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Here's an idea I just had. First, give the Leader an innate taunt like Brunt "Punchvoke" that draws aggro each time they attack - that helps keep the pets alive. And second, give them an AT Inherent power called 'Inspiration' which acts sort of like Blaster Defiance/Brute Fury, but it boosts their pets damage instead of their own. The more they wade in and fight, the longer their pets live and the more damage the pets do.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
With a melee/summon AT, we'd ideally want the character to be in the melee, fighting, but players may want to let the henchmen fight and so avoid personal risk. Therefore, the AT must be designed to encourage people to fight, not just give them the opportunity to.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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I thought this as well. Night Widows are a good example. Fortunata, Crabs etc. Im newly working on a Warshade so I wont comment there, but it seems Assault/Defense is available upon unlock.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Assault/Defense (ie tankmage) is already in the game: VEATs.
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However, the Dom assault Style as primary with a Defense based secondary would be great, although I feel as though it would either dwarf the blaster, or be very tank mage oriented.
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The way to get around that is to make it the equivalent of Illusion control:|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The problem with the multiple selves idea is that it lacks any means defined means for the selves to attack. In comics and cartoons, a character who can create copies of himself, such as Billy Numerous from the Teen Titans, will usually just create thousands of copies and swarm his enemies with sheer numbers. Masterminds are limited to six henchmen in three tiers, which means those henchmen HAVE to have some sort of powers of their own.
Powersets in City of Heroes tend to be defined by what they do. Assault Rifle shoots an assault rifle, Energy Melee hits things in melee with energy and so forth. A multiple selves Mastermind does... What, exactly? Yes, he summons henchmen just like every other Mastermind, but they do what to hurt the enemy? Punch and kick like unpowered individuals? Shoot energy and fire like Phantom Army? Use guns? There are far too many possibilities for a set this open to interpretation. Now, if you're suggesting we get customization options where you can replace, say, Soldiers minions with copies of yourself, that I could get behind. |
Tier One: Phantisms. Miniature phantasms that do much of your damage. Up to 3 of them. Blasters.
Tier Two: Dopplegangers. Illusions that mimic your every move. They do no damage but have a taunt feature that draws agro away from you and your team. They are either quickly recastable or very difficult or impossible to hit. You get two of them.
Tier Three: Spectral Terror. A dark/dark (with the scary faces power effect amplified) brute. You get one.
Niether VEATs nor HEATs are anything approaching the horrible 'tankmage' level, especially not Kheldians with thier lack of mez shields outside of the clunky Dwarf form (I hate the transformation time it takes and I dont care who knows it)
Here, HEATs are powerful, but fully dependent on their non-HEAT teammates to BE powerful, as their buffs are reflections of the team's composition.
VEATs, on the other hand, stack buffs nicely with each other, but these buffs also stack on non-VEAT teammates... so while a team of 4 widows makes all 4 widows rather nicely buffed, it doesn't marginalize the brute that wants to join-- it makes the brute a GOD-- all his powers PLUS 4 sets of widow team buffs.
Both were great ways to make something with the feel of a tankmage that made the other classes more valuable, rather than more marginal.