When teaming my necro/dark I try to judge where I should be anchoring Darkest Night, i.e. if there's a shield scrapper and/or a stalker on the team the boss will probably go down first so I target a lieutenant. If there's a lot of AOE I'll DN the boss.
I don't know how much cash you have but the +DEF and +RES pet procs are a big help. Demons can slot all 4, yay!
Have you frankenslotted lots of -tohit on DN, FS etc? Those sets are dirt cheap.
My /dark is a mastermind and I tend to follow my pets into melee, trying to keep them within reach of my heal.
Soon you'll get Fluffy and that makes everything noticeably safer.
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I have to say it is a problem with the AT. Having a pet run the wrong way getting unwanted aggro. Having one lone pet chase some mob across the map for some crazy reason. Having to put pets on passive and then using follow me to stop them from chasing running mobs. I think having to repeatedly use commands or a combination of commands to have pets follow you or disengage mobs is troublesome. I use the keypad option with some additional added commands and it still can be a pain. Having Range Pets charging into battle with no Melee attacks. Without a doubt everyone always has that one pet that just runs off a bit to the right or left pulling another group. Why its always that one tier one pet I have no clue..|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
Calling that a problem on this AT is a bit much.
I call it a minor drawback. |
Since I am spending more time trying to control my pets it means its less time I am doing something else that is beneficial to my team or for myself and my pets when needed.
Pet AI needs fine tuning. Basically an ability to allow each player within certain constraints to determine what each command means to them. For example my Stay command for my Robots might mean stay here DON'T MOVE NO MATTER WHAT and just attack anything I tell you to attack that comes into range. For other players they might want to add some limited chase distance. Meaning okay stay but if something runs off I will give you 30 yard leeway to chase the guy down otherwise turn back and return. I think this can be accomplished with the addition of left clicking the power and adding radio buttons to the power.
As to the OP, I don't think Masterminds come to full fruition until the 40s. I think then when you have your full sets and IOs slotted that you start to see some finer control. I think for the most part for many masterminds the ride to 50 is either having pets start the attack by taking out the tough mobs. EG Nullifiers, Gunslingers, Wardens or firing off an attack to get aggro on yourself to provoke and have the pets attacks the group. Basically absorbing the alpha strike yourself. Once your at 50 and have your IOs set up with dark your pretty much flooring everyone's -ToHit and have one of the best AOE heals going. Granted -ToHit can be resisted, but Darkest Knight with defenses slotted for 20 to 25% give you defense cap. Which will pretty much push your attack style to always looking to get the aggro.
With my Robot FF just respeced I have everyone at defense cap and I still get one pet that runs off all the time and gets killed. I have no clue and it bugs me sometimes. But once that Tier one is killed the other 5 work well for the most part. I don't even bother resummoning unless another Tier one dies.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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100% correct. There was no such thing as bodyguard when it first came out, therefore the design was not meant to be a tank. I will say it was very hard to play them in the beginning, without Bodyguard. In fact, I abandoned them completely until bodyguard came along. While not meant to be the tank, they most certainly can function as one. However, no redside was meant to be anything blueside, it is a misconception many players have. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
You think you can simply say "Wrong" and that be that? How about some evidence to back up your theory?
Say, perhaps the fact that MMs were designed without bodyguard mode. Or maybe that none of their attacks carry any value of taunt. I'm sorry, but you're the wrong one here. There are no "tanks" of redside. Make all the hollow comparisons to blueside ATs you want, but redside was designed around sharing aggro. |
I "tank" with my rad/dark corrupter, aggroing with darkest night, that does not mean that she was made to be the tank of redside.
Pets dying is an issue of control, which is basically what most were saying. You have to learn when to send them, and learn when to reel them in. I only use bodyguard/attack/heel, because I probably would get too confused branching out further....but it works for me. Too many mobs/too high level, can also be a problem as said, though others may well be able to handle that.
Just ran a STF, and my thug/traps did better on team then I do solo, and I only have 4 IOs all the rest are SOs. 
The 4 IOs are resist and def auras ones
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I'm pretty sure that the devs intended for MMs to be the "tanks" of CoV.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
You think you can simply say "Wrong" and that be that? How about some evidence to back up your theory?
Say, perhaps the fact that MMs were designed without bodyguard mode. Or maybe that none of their attacks carry any value of taunt. I'm sorry, but you're the wrong one here. There are no "tanks" of redside. Make all the hollow comparisons to blueside ATs you want, but redside was designed around sharing aggro. |
Now, when I say "tank", I don't mean "Tankers", the City of Heroes Archetype with taunt auras, defensive primaries and melee secondaries. I mean something more along the lines of "meat shield".
If we think about the game purely on SOs (yes, IO game will change this greatly, but the game is balanced on SOs, plus villains were designed at the same time as the IO system, so the developers couldn't have known the long-term effects of such a system), If you have a team of 8 versus a mob size meant for 8, then the most dangerous time frame will be the alpha strike from the enemies.
With lower buff/healing numbers coming from MMs/corrs, and lower hp/resist/defense coming from brutes, brutes were really closer to DD, like scrappers with more HP.
MMs, however, had an endless supply of pets, and buff powers to keep them alive through the alpha strike, with no risk to any other player. MMs were probably expected to risk the life of a minion for a second or two, at which point the dominators would start dominating and the brutes could pull bits of aggro off the MM, stalkers take out hard targets, corrs blast/heal, etc etc.
As evidence (I have no proof, since the oldest posts on these boards only goes to 2008...), I show that pet upgrades used to be single-target and not AoE. Clearly, MMs were meant to lose pets on the fly and continuously replace them as the battles spanned out.
Of course, in reality, brutes became the tanks (this time, I can actually mean "tankers"), and MMs were given AoE upgrades to help with startup time at the beginning of missions (back when pets didn't go through instances). *shrug* my MM has no problem tanking for ITFs (besides Rommie at the end, who cheats
)A few other things: historically speaking, MMs were primarily given BG mode not b/c they were supposed to be tanking/not tanking, but rather b/c people kept complaining about ambushes that specifically target the player (those were nearly certain-death back in the day). Also, though Brutes have "Gauntlet", it's actually only single target, so if you find yourself chasing around runners, it's because you were too busy beating up on his friend to PunchVoke him.
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That works well, but one thing to keep in mind is that the pets tend to remain on "attack" rather than "follow" until either the entire spawn dies or they come out of combat (usually due to things running away). You won't get Bodyguard back immediately after the chosen target dies unless there aren't any others actively fighting the pets, so be ready to hit Follow, Goto or Stay to immediately restore Bodyguard if you start taking fire.
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Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
I use a handy Attack/Defensive macro that works like a charm. They attack the desired target and, lacking other targets, revert to BG. Obviously, once they've attacked a target, the rest of the spawn dives in, so there's no "idling" happening as long as enemies are still present.
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Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
On teams, the green "heel" button is your friend, and the team's friend too. I usually wait until the tank has his aggro, and then tell all my henchmen to attack a single target in the group, then let them do their thing after he drops.
Focusing your fire means your boys only really draw aggro from one bad guy. Their AOE's will hit other nearby foes, but probably not in a way that makes them take their attention off of the tank.
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I split my pets into two teams so I always have three fighting and three on Bodyguard. It works well I think
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
That works well, but one thing to keep in mind is that the pets tend to remain on "attack" rather than "follow" until either the entire spawn dies or they come out of combat (usually due to things running away). You won't get Bodyguard back immediately after the chosen target dies unless there aren't any others actively fighting the pets, so be ready to hit Follow, Goto or Stay to immediately restore Bodyguard if you start taking fire.
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How did you go about doing this?|
Originally Posted by Dromio
I split my pets into two teams so I always have three fighting and three on Bodyguard. It works well I think
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I sometimes try this as well, but the only way I could think of doing it was by naming three pets a certain way (eg, all begin w/ the letters "Ca"...), but I sometimes don't like restricting my pet names...
Macros. I have done it with my ninjas. The only issue you will have if pets switch names. Then again that bug has been fixed then bugged again. I don't currently know if they are still.
My Demon/Dark MM is awesome, I reconmend you keep at it.
In the last few days ive done a fair number of STFs, and never faceplanted on them, and tended to tank all the ambushes that came along, and led the charge sometimes.
Its fun sets, I don't know how /Traps will work with demons mind.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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My experience is that you will lose pets no matter what strategy you use on a team, unless it's just to stay out of the way and let everyone else have all the fun. I like to attack, and attack constantly. Every target that goes down is someone else who can't hurt me or my pets. Ranged pets will last longer than melee pets, so I pull them back to my position after a few attacks and consolidate.
I don't like ninjas, and I really really don't like zombies. They both feel extremely fragile, no matter what I do. Bots are great, even though they don't put out the damage so well, and Thugs are even better. Demons, however seem to be the best of all.
Don't run around in defensive/follow with demons - Kill everything you see and kill it a lot. And then some more. Demons are for attacking.
Don't lead with Dark, lead with Demons, and see what that gets you.
Mechanista 50 rad/rad Corruptor
Buster Braun 32 SS/Inv Brute
Mortua Manus 41 Bots/Dark MM
December Ashe 30 Ice/Fire Dominator
Umbra Sprite 32 Dark/Super Reflexes Stalker
Mister Large 30 Thugs/Bubbles MM
Dynamaxine 28 Electric/Stone Brute
Three-Alarm 19 Fire/Dark Corruptor
That's not a bad strategy, but I were going to focus on damage I'd play as a Blaster or Scrapper or Brute. Why take an AT that deals sub par damage like the MM, and try to out kill the killers?
I usually send my guys in a concentrated strike after a lieutenant or something, just to keep them busy, and then sit back and play healer for the rest of the team. If I'm having to heal a single ally too much, then I tell my boys to redirect onto whatever bad guy is damaging that teammate so much. But, for the most part, my henchmen are like neglected children most of the time.
edit: note: This is stark contrast to how I play when I'm soloing.
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What's your primary? My bots certainly aren't "sub-par damage": if I could find a way to measure it, I expect I'd find they're responsible for about a third of the typical team's damage output.
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Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA
That's not a bad strategy, but I were going to focus on damage I'd play as a Blaster or Scrapper or Brute. Why take an AT that deals sub par damage like the MM, and try to out kill the killers?
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I admit MM's aren't the AT I'm most experienced with, but I have noticed this as well,
my thoughts regarding this are:
-Purple Patch, on teams generally your fighting higher level mobs, your LT is -1 your level, and your minions are -2, so if your fighting +3's, your minions are fighting +5's.
-the larger spawns also mean something else, your more likely to have mobs who throw out AE's and a greater number of them than solo
-As someone mentioned you don't have the battlefield control you do when solo
Good news about the purple patch. If you get your lvl shift your pets con 1 lvl higher.
It was such a huge relief when test proved that it works on our pets too.
If your wondering about it here. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251119
Pets on Defensive will attack any foes that attack the MM OR ONE OF HIS PETS. That said, it's my guess that the OP is spreading out his henchmen too much. He is directing too many of them to take on targets on their own, and they are failing to work together.
My strategy is to direct one or two henchmen to attack specific targets, and then attack myself. That draws fire to myself and the henchmen while splitting it up so no one of us is overwhelmed. My henchmen still remaining in Bodyguard Mode then contribute to taking out the foes that the active henchmen have singled out.
Another large issue is the AoEs being generated around the Brute, and whether or not you are directing your henchmen to stand in them. You can usually send a tough henchman, like your Tier 3 in there if you watch his back. But if you are splitting up your henchmen to send your Tier 1s after three different targets with the AoE radius of the Brute, it's no wonder they're being killed.
The thing to remember is that your Tier 3s are relatively useless unless they are working together. They're two levels down from you, and splitting their share of the damage three ways. They're pretty much the equivalent of Minions, but one on one a Minion will have a bit of the advantage. This is why they get slaughtered so easily.
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One thing to remember is that you don't HAVE to have only two binds to have two teams. You can name your pets according to three different conventions, and direct two of them at different enemies (or the same one) while you leave the third in Bodyguard. |
Originally Posted by Zeh_Masteh
How did you go about doing this? [having half on Bodyguard and half attacking]
I sometimes try this as well, but the only way I could think of doing it was by naming three pets a certain way (eg, all begin w/ the letters "Ca"...), but I sometimes don't like restricting my pet names... |
An alternative is to simply use the Tiering system. Use petcom_pow <Tier 3> to direct your Tier 3 and petcom_pow <Tier 2> to direct your Tier 2s. You really only need to use names if you intend to split up a Tier. (Like splitting the Punks from the Arsonist)
The other thing is that the letter you choose doesn't have to be at the beginning of the name, and can even be a single letter. You can choose a command around the fact that all the henchmen you wish to command have a "y" in their name. You can also chain petcom_name commands in a keybind or macro, in case you can't find a common letter combo between them.
For my Thugs/Dark, I basically have an Aggressive command that sets only my Bruiser and the Punks to Aggressive (chaining two petcom_name commands) and then two separate Goto commands, once that sends the Bruiser, the other that sends the Punks. Since Goto requires a mouse click, it doesn't allow chained petcom_names, so I just have a common letter for my Punks, and the Bruiser I just spell out his whole name. I could have used petcom_pow if I wanted.
For my Bots/Traps I actually switch the Assault Bot and two of the Drones to Aggressive, but my Goto actually sends all THREE of the Drones to a spot. I usually use it to set them out of range of AoEs so they will fire from a distance.
For all of the above you can substitute Attack for Aggressive if you prefer that. It's just my preference to set Aggressive and use Goto to make a henchman attack. I have keys to switch them back to Defensive or make them heel if they get out of control, and since it's only three of the six henchmen I don't have trouble keeping track of them. 90% of the time, Goto will make them do what I want.
In both cases my Tier 2s are left in Bodyguard Mode at all times, and remain in place behind me. (Or they did before the AI got screwed with, but at least they still remain in Bodyguard) I do give them a key to Attack, or Goto, but almost never use them, and I don't even have an Aggressive key defined for them. The Enforcers actually provide the majority of the damage, once the Bruiser has drawn aggro, but the Proto Bots, of course, stay back so they can do their support thing.
I'm still working on Ninjas and Mercs, as I haven't gotten to 26 yet with either I do not yet have a full set of six henchmen I can split into teams of three. But I've done pretty good with picking a Tier 2 to draw aggro with, like my Bruiser, or sending both Tier 2s in at once. Previously I was sending the Tier 3s in as a group, especially when they were also paired, but they started to get too fragile for that around 20.
I'll add that it's probably more efficient to use the Tier 1 as Bodyguard, since you get exactly the same amount of Bodyguard from any three henchmen, but your Tier 2 and Tier 3 do more damage. Thus they are more useful in an offensive capacity. On the other hand, as the Tier 1 can't take as much damage your Bodyguard can fail faster. So it may be a matter of personal preference whether you choose all three Tier 1s, a Tier 1 and the Tier 2s, or 2 Tier 1s and a Tier 2 as your Bodyguard. You could even single out a Tier 2 and your Tier 3 to be your two offensive henchmen, and have four as Bodyguard, but IMHO two henchmen on Bodyguard is too few, and four is too many. If you really NEED that much Bodyguard, you should probably just switch them all over.
I find I have a hard time on speed TFs, you might have to keep up and pass mobs with your lil hp level. Then even with so much personal defense I can end up on the floor. I am way over soft cap. I don't know what it is but it feels odd. I went from a build that seemed sturdy without IO sets to a softcapped one and it just feels a tonne weaker.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
The advantage with single targeting them all on the same enemy, as far as I've noticed, is that the enemy AI isn't too smart about finishing a single target out of the group off. It will hit one of my henchmen with a solid attack, bring him down to 1/4 of his normal health, then immediately turn and attack another one while the first guy is still standing.
And, by the time the enemy's attention focuses back on that first guy, I'll probably have healed him already.
I should be more clear about what I'm saying about the AI. As near as I can tell, it makes decisions on a pure damage basis. So, if the enemy boss is equally aggroed at 2 henchmen, one with 48 hp left, and the other with 100 hp left, and it's next attack would deal 50 points,..... apparently the AI will prefer to hit the guy with 100 hp, so as not to waste any damage. Nevermind that dealing 50 hp to the already damaged one would kill him off. No. The AI refuses to waste those 2 hp.
This means, the big trick to keeping all your henchmen alive is to make sure each individual enemy is either aggroed to all of them, or none of them.
On the note of pet aggro, I just wanted to ask, do pets have some form of punchvoke? I've had pets take aggro from me despite not being in bodyguard mode and not touching the mob, and having me grab aggro first.
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No, however pets have a threat level of 3 compared to 2 for the MM so unless you grab aggro and then maintain it (generally with a combination of taunt and damage) your pets will tend to draw aggro from you.
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Originally Posted by Signpost
On the note of pet aggro, I just wanted to ask, do pets have some form of punchvoke? I've had pets take aggro from me despite not being in bodyguard mode and not touching the mob, and having me grab aggro first.
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I understand the threat level. But I was the only one attacking the mob when it decided to attack one of my pets instead (pets were facing away, so no AoEs could've hit the mob accidently). Does threat leach between linked mobs?
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
No, however pets have a threat level of 3 compared to 2 for the MM so unless you grab aggro and then maintain it (generally with a combination of taunt and damage) your pets will tend to draw aggro from you.
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Thanks for the replies everyone.
After some thought, I really think the issue I was having was twofold:
1) My friend had his difficulty set to high given the mobs we were fighting.
2) I'm just not used to teaming much on my MM's and made a few silly mistakes of my own.
The first issue would be easily enough addressed. One of my SG mates has a bad habit of setting difficulties too high and wondering why the team has troubles. It's an issue he and I have discussed before. I'll never forget the time we teamed up and his brute died instantly to the alpha strike of the first spawn. I'm just going to have to remind him (again) that not all teams can do +4x8.
The second I can only address by teaming more with my masterminds. I haven't much in the past because there are a couple of my online friends that absolutely hate teaming with MM's. They've never complained about teaming with mine, but every single time a PUG MM joins one of our teams they fuss about it, so it's pretty obvious how they feel about the AT.
You've all given me some things to think about. At this point I guess it will just be a case of practice makes perfect.