Peacebringers and Warshades and Numbers, Oh MY!

There's been more than a little debate lately as to whether Peacebringers have fallen behind warshades in terms of game balance, and in another thread numbers were requested to prove that theory.

Wait no more, because I have numbers! Exactly what they prove is open to debate, but what I've done is this: I took two more or less equal builds - one for the Peacebringer and one for the Warshade and compared them in Excell spreadsheets. The builds I used are pulled from Plasma's Ultimate Guide to Kheldians; specifically, I used his Gold Standard builds for both. Neither of them use stamina, and neither of them use IO's of any sort. The only change I made was to the Warshade build with regard to the Dwarf Mire: when Plasma created those builds Dwarf Mire was on the same recharge and duration as Sunless Mire. I changed it to make it more of an attack, and adjusted the damage on the other powers in the dwarf attack chain accordingly.

Speaking of IO's - or the lack thereof - in these builds, let me here state that the game is balanced around SO's. Whether or not anyone think's that's a wise decision is irrelevant, so please spare me any discussion regarding what you can do with IO's. IO's do not exist in this thread, and any attempt to bring them in will be summarily ignored. Enough said.

Before I go further, let me give a shout out and a huge thanks to Dechs Kaison. Without his Survival Analysis Spreadhseets the self mitigation portion of this comparison would have taken MUCH longer, to say nothing of the fact that he checked my math before I went live with any of this.

Without further adieu, here are the links to follow to view the spreadsheets in Google Docs:

Warshade analysis

Peacebringer analysis


First comes the damage analysis for each archetype. For this, I crafted the best attack chain for each form that I could, and weighted the burst damage attacks like Dawn Strike and Quasar so I could express their overall effect on damage in dps terms. I also assumed hasten was running for each build. I suppose I could have weighted hasten against the non-hastened recharge times, but I view this as more of a snapshot of each kheldian at the peak of each build's power. There are separate dps figures for single target and aoe, and all AoE in the damage comparison sheets are assumed to average out to three targets hit, which I think is conservative, but reasonable.

Like the burst damage powers, Build UP and Mire is weighted and applied to the overall dps. Mires were weighted both against single targets and AOE.

With regard to Pets, I weighted Photon Seekers as a straight up burst damage power and weighted it accordingly for human and Dwarf forms, but for Nova I took range into account and further weighted the figures based on how many would likely go off. For the Warshade's Essences I assumed an attack chain of the lowest power to the highest, cycling through powers as they recharged. I assumed two fluffies out on a permanent basis, since it is possible with just hasten and SO's, and in addition I assumed one fluffy was hasted as well, since I'm under the impression that - since you'll definitely have hasten running when you summon that second fluffy, and the hasten glow is transferred to that fluffy - that fluffy will be hasted. After going over it with Dechs, however, I'm not so sure that it does. I left it hastened, but can change if need be. The difference is only about 14 dps.

I also accounted for burst damage attacks like nukes, unchain essence and pets in forms as well as human, since dropping from form is so instantaneous. What I didn't take into account where that's concerned (and maybe I should have) was the effect of shifting back to form would have on the form's dps. I don't think it's that big of a deal, however.

Because I used Dech's mitigation sheets, I went ahead and did figures for one foe and ten foes (vise three foes) for powers like eclipse and stygian return. The Tier 9 defensives are weighted and accounted for in all relevant results (note that they are absent in PB Dwarf and Nova form results)The rest of that should be pretty self explanatory.

For those who hate looking at spreadhsheets, here's the skinny:

PEACEBRINGERS

Single Target:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 111.51
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 109.9
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 86.51

AoE:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 156.51
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 240.7
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 133.51

Self Mitigation
Human Average Survivable incoming DPS: 81
Nova Average Survivable incoming DPS: 42
Dwarf Average Survivable incoming DPS: 153

WARSHADES

Single Target:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 189.08
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 212.08
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 198.08

AoE:
Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 254.82
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 368.82
Dwarf damage potential (expressed in dps): 334.82

Self Mitigation
Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 81
Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 72
Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (one corpse): 313

Human Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 789
Nova Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 767
Dwarf Max Survivable incoming DPS (ten corpses): 1426


So there you have it, for the time being. I was mildly surprised to see many of my notions confirmed. For example, a Peacebringer up against a single boss is better off to stay in human form then go nova, from a strict damage potential perspective. Looking at the spreadsheets, I can also say with confidence that the real disparity between their damage lies not with the mires, but with the pets. I was also startled that Light Form didn't add as much mitigation as I thought it would, when compared to Eclipse.

Now it's important to note that none of this takes GROUP mitigation into account. Stuns, slows, holds and knockback all serve to slow the incoming dps, and I still intend to compare that, but it will take a bit longer to find quantifiable figures. I'll come back and edit accordingly when I do, but I wouldn't expect Peacebringers to fare any better when their Defense Debuffs and Knockback go up against the Warshade's Stuns and Slows. Just sayin'.

So feel free to download the spreadsheets and play with them. Let me know where I've erred and what you think could bear more study.

And thanks again, Dechs! The help was a lifesaver!

I'm such a doofus! I forgot to mention the most important thing!

Nowhere in any of that analysis is cosmic balance taken into account, and that's important to remember. The analysis is based on the archetypes alone, mostly because that was something that's easy to do in forum discussion.

In the meantime, let me just say that I expect a Peacebringer to close the gap somewhat between the two when teamed. A team of blasters and scrappers will have little use for the extra damage a warshade gains from their presence, but a Peacebringer's added toughness will be most welcome, allowing the PB to tank more effectively.

Thanks Joe

First, I'm glad to have been able to help with this.

*Shameless plug* The survivability analysis spreadsheets Joe refers to, and an explanation on how to use them, can be found on my blog. The link is in my signature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe Nowhere in any of that analysis is cosmic balance taken into account, and that's important to remember. The analysis is based on the archetypes alone, mostly because that was something that's easy to do in forum discussion.

I don't think it should enter into the analysis. Regardless of how the bonuses function, their magnitude is the same. On average, they will provide the same benefit. When it comes to comparing WS to PB, unless we can decide on what a "standard team" consists of, there cannot be a good way to include the effects of the inherent powers.

I see a pretty sad design in Peacebringer because:

Human damage potential (expressed in dps): 111.51
Nova damage potential (expressed in dps): 109.9

Why would anyone wants to be in Nova form then? I've looked at the builds and while Nova starts off having better dps but you sacrifice healing (yourself and others) and other utilities. PB also has combat hover to allow aerial fights.

To paraphrase Monty Python's King Arthur...

"You make me sad. So be it. My Peacebringers are Patsies"

Interesting numbers analysis, thanks for making the effort,
and here's hoping it leads to some beneficial dev scrutiny.


Regards,
4

I'm not a big spreadsheets kind of guy, so how are you weighting damage for Build-up and Mires? How many targets are you averaging as hit by Mires and Eclipse? I can't quite tell, so sorry if I should be able to see it. What kind of recharge are you assuming for this analysis? It seemed like you only had one set of numbers, so are you just assuming no recharge? Some higher number?

Having different recharge time comparisons is usually done in other DPS analyses that I have seen (and it usually yields a difference in how sets can perform), hence my curiousity.

Thank you for this analysis. Putting numbers to the gut feeling that Peacebringers were underperforming is.. a good thing.

Have you sent the links as a PM to Black Scorpion?

I would say two things:

1- The difference between PBs and WS is greater than I thought it was!
YOu did a great job with this post!


2- Nova form is weak as a damage dealer. It should get buffed.

It is lacking some punch in my point of view.
It trades a lot just for that ability: to deal damage. And I don't think the tradeoff is for the better.

I could see an argument being made for improving the ST powers slightly, maybe, but Nova form has scads more AOE damage to offer to a team (or solo), which is often more useful in CoH than ST damage. I don't know that "trading a lot" is entirely fair, given that analysis. Especially with Forms benefiting from Cosmic Balance as well. Each form is equal in that regard (its base buffs), so you have to look at what it can do in the form. Flight is some means of mitigation, as is ranged damage, and then you have a lot of AOE potential the other forms do not have.

Mitigations:
Nova has flying but so does human form (inherent)
Nova has KB but so do human form attacks
Nova benefits from Cosmic Balance, but so does Human form.
Nova benetits less from Build Up than human form does (time spent in the animation to change to Nova)

Nova has higher range than human --> I think this is the only thing that nova has for it


So, most things that Nova form has, human form also has and sometimes it's the same, others Human form benetits more than Nova and only in one thing (range) Nova comes out on top.
Nova also trades ALL versatility (Pulsar, Shields, BU, Hasten, Self Heal and Heal other from Human Form, Essence Boost, etc etc etc etc....) for damage.


Again, it trades it all for damage. Now, tell me, do you think with ALL the things that Nova form sacrifices in order to deal damage is a good trade off?
Why is it that most PBs prefer to play Human form for damage rather than nova (aesthetics aside)?
Sure, Human Base Damage is inferior but in end, it doesn't really matter does it? Because ALL the other stuff that Human Form has more than make up for that slightly inferior base damage.


Just to be crystal clear: I don't think Nova form is useless. I Just think that, considering the things it sacrifices in order to be a "damage dealer form", I don't think the damage is on par with the sacrifices required to be in Nova.


It's just that. Nova form sacrifices a lot just to deal damage and those damage numbers are not good enough to justify the tradeoff.

I see your point and I rather agree. I don't mean that nova doesn't have its uses and its strenghts.
My point is simply that, for all the things that you sacrifice to play in Nova form, what you get in return is not good enough.

Does Warshade's nova form have -fly resistance too, or is it just peacebringers?

I ask because I remember doing a mission with Hydra on my ws, and they brought me down so quickly that it was pointless to even try to maintain vertical separation.

Good job SJ, nicely done