Peacebringers and Warshades and Numbers, Oh MY!
Does Warshade's nova form have -fly resistance too, or is it just peacebringers?
I ask because I remember doing a mission with Hydra on my ws, and they brought me down so quickly that it was pointless to even try to maintain vertical separation. |
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Hey! I helped too!
... A little. Sort of. Maybe a smidgen. No, this was a great undertaking by Joe. All I did was give him a spreadsheet that did half of what he needed. Joe put some serious effort into this project, and deserves all the credit for these results. |
I'm glad someone is looking at #s for us...apply online and see if the two of you can get positions as interns implementing Kheld changes
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
I'm glad someone is looking at #s for us...apply online and see if the two of you can get positions as interns implementing Kheld changes
![]() |
Hell, I'd do the changes myself for free if it meant I could enjoy my Peacebringer again.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Nova's don't have -Fly resistance. If you got hit by it you are reduced to a pitiful slivering and hopping Nova. But no pityful not with Inherent Swift and Hurdle. A Nova can hop quite a distance now.
![]() |
Kheldian Epic Archetypes Peacebringer / Combat Flight, Peacebringer / Bright Nova, and Warshade / Dark Nova are now resistant to -Fly effects. |
@Dechs and Jersey - thanks for the compliments, and I very much DO consider it a team effort between Dechs and me. Wouldn't have gotten very far with out Dech's sheets or his math checking!
I'm currently playing around with the spreadsheets to try and come up with some reasonable suggestions. I'm closest right now to a suggestion for Photon Seekers that might just close the damage gap between the two considerably without violating the cottage rule, but I want to consider a few alternatives first before posting.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I just checked on this last night. Hover, Combat Flight and Nova forms all have the same -fly resistance. The in-game details show this as mag 4 fly (unresistable). Fly has mag 1. I didn't think to check what the magnitude of typical -fly powers was, but yeah... any hover/Nova variant has the most -fly resist you can get in the game.
|
Patch notes from may 2008
This is what I was talking about by -fly resistance. Can't believe I remembered the nova but not combat flight. Sheesh. @Dechs and Jersey - thanks for the compliments, and I very much DO consider it a team effort between Dechs and me. Wouldn't have gotten very far with out Dech's sheets or his math checking! I'm currently playing around with the spreadsheets to try and come up with some reasonable suggestions. I'm closest right now to a suggestion for Photon Seekers that might just close the damage gap between the two considerably without violating the cottage rule, but I want to consider a few alternatives first before posting. |
That and having Solar Flare and the Dwarf's version of the power requiring you to be on the ground, when the inherent travel of one is flight, the other teleportation (which forces several seconds of hovering) is just... horrible.
Since the major difference in damage numbers comes from build up vs mires, wouldn't the solution involve a change to the PB damage buff?
Peacebringer build up could be swapped for a clone of super strength's rage. It would give PB's a perma build up power like Warshades. It would follow the theme of PB's having self buffs and carry the damage to other forms like the WS mires. I don't think this would break the cottage rule since both powers are a "build up". Photon seeker recharge/dmg would need to be altered to match Warshade pet dps. A few other powers might need to be tweaked but I think these changes would close the dps gap.
@Dawun
Old School
Renegades
Since the major difference in damage numbers comes from build up vs mires, wouldn't the solution involve a change to the PB damage buff?
|
Remove pet damage from the equation, and you've got the following:
Peacebringer damage potential:
Human Single Target: 103.24
Human AoE: 131.71
Nova Single Target: 105.3
Nova AoE: 226.71
Dwarf Single Target: 75.52
Dwarf AoE: 125.24
Warshade damage potential:
Human Single Target: 75.08
Human AoE: 87.82
Nova Single Target: 98.08
Nova AoE: 100.82
Dwarf Single Target: 84.08
Dwarf AoE: 167.82
Note that the above figures still takes build up and mire into account, along with all burst damage powers. With the notable exception of Black Dwarf (which is benefiting from more attacks and dwarf mire), the Peacebringer's burst damage and build up combination wins out every time.
But let's look at those figures without the burst damage, leaving only the raw dps damage weighted by build up and mire:
Peacebringer damage potential:
Human Single Target: 99
Human AoE: 119
Nova Single Target: 101
Nova AoE: 214
Dwarf Single Target: 74
Dwarf AoE: 96
Warshade damage potential:
Human Single Target: 68
Human AoE: 68
Nova Single Target: 91
Nova AoE: 177
Dwarf Single Target: 77
Dwarf AoE: 143
So it looks like Peacebringers actually get more out of Build UP than Warshades get out of mire *on average*.
The argument could be made that a fully saturated mire would make more of a difference between the two, but IMHO not enough to warrant the criticism build up has received at the expense of mire.
Changing the Photon Seekers is almost all that's needed to close the dps gap. The current suggestion I'm currently running the numbers on gives photon seekers the Fiery Embrace treatment, where their self destruct power also grants the player an extra 15% energy damage buff on each of his attacks PER SEEKER for 30 seconds, giving a total damage buff of 45% for 30 seconds after the seekers explode, provided they all explode at the same time. This, along with lowering the recharge to somewhere around 120 seconds (and if I'm calculating correctly you'll have to have considerable IO investment in recharge bonuses to bring that recharge down to 30 seconds, and I don't think you'd bring it down much lower). Flag the photon seekers the way MM tier 1 pets are flagged - making them unique after 3 - and call it a day.
Theoretically. I'm still on the fence about it. I've got the numbers plugged into my master spreadsheet, and it brings peacebringer damage potential ALMOST to Warshade levels, but I'm currently uncertain about how much the recharge could be abused and how doable the unique flag is.
I've also thought of an alternative being a 30 second recharge boost granted (with the same figures per seeker) that might help the Peacebringer in ALL areas, from damage to team support to self mitigation. Haven't had much time to think about that one, though.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Except the major difference in damage numbers DOESN'T come from build-up vs mires. The difference is in the pets.
Remove pet damage from the equation, and you've got the following: Peacebringer damage potential: Human Single Target: 103.24 Human AoE: 131.71 Nova Single Target: 105.3 Nova AoE: 226.71 Dwarf Single Target: 75.52 Dwarf AoE: 125.24 Warshade damage potential: Human Single Target: 75.08 Human AoE: 87.82 Nova Single Target: 98.08 Nova AoE: 100.82 Dwarf Single Target: 84.08 Dwarf AoE: 167.82 Note that the above figures still takes build up and mire into account, along with all burst damage powers. With the notable exception of Black Dwarf (which is benefiting from more attacks and dwarf mire), the Peacebringer's burst damage and build up combination wins out every time. But let's look at those figures without the burst damage, leaving only the raw dps damage weighted by build up and mire: Peacebringer damage potential: Human Single Target: 99 Human AoE: 119 Nova Single Target: 101 Nova AoE: 214 Dwarf Single Target: 74 Dwarf AoE: 96 Warshade damage potential: Human Single Target: 68 Human AoE: 68 Nova Single Target: 91 Nova AoE: 177 Dwarf Single Target: 77 Dwarf AoE: 143 So it looks like Peacebringers actually get more out of Build UP than Warshades get out of mire *on average*. The argument could be made that a fully saturated mire would make more of a difference between the two, but IMHO not enough to warrant the criticism build up has received at the expense of mire. Changing the Photon Seekers is almost all that's needed to close the dps gap. The current suggestion I'm currently running the numbers on gives photon seekers the Fiery Embrace treatment, where their self destruct power also grants the player an extra 15% energy damage buff on each of his attacks PER SEEKER for 30 seconds, giving a total damage buff of 45% for 30 seconds after the seekers explode, provided they all explode at the same time. This, along with lowering the recharge to somewhere around 120 seconds (and if I'm calculating correctly you'll have to have considerable IO investment in recharge bonuses to bring that recharge down to 30 seconds, and I don't think you'd bring it down much lower). Flag the photon seekers the way MM tier 1 pets are flagged - making them unique after 3 - and call it a day. Theoretically. I'm still on the fence about it. I've got the numbers plugged into my master spreadsheet, and it brings peacebringer damage potential ALMOST to Warshade levels, but I'm currently uncertain about how much the recharge could be abused and how doable the unique flag is. I've also thought of an alternative being a 30 second recharge boost granted (with the same figures per seeker) that might help the Peacebringer in ALL areas, from damage to team support to self mitigation. Haven't had much time to think about that one, though. |
I'm just trying to understand how you got these numbers or if my suggestions would help the issue. I know your numbers are based on SO performance but I'm used to comparing the two based on IO's and lots of mobs so the results seem a little odd.
@Dawun
Old School
Renegades
Do these Warshade numbers represent one enemy or two? What are the numbers with the extra mire? Is Unchain Essence included in the WS human AOE number? The extra 20 seconds of mire build up isn't helping the warshade pull ahead? Are you saying a change to PB pets would be fine without a change to build up since I suggested combining the changes?
I'm just trying to understand how you got these numbers or if my suggestions would help the issue. I know your numbers are based on SO performance but I'm used to comparing the two based on IO's and lots of mobs so the results seem a little odd. |
The AoE damage numbers aren't so much a true reflection on actual dps so much as they are a loose measure of damage potential against simultaneous multiple targets. In those figures, Mire is weighted to hit what I consider to be a conservative three enemies on average. I suppose I could do a separate set of numbers showing maximum saturation on the mire, but then I'd also have to assume maximum targets hit on all powers.
I'm not saying that the extra 20 seconds doesn't serve the mire well, so much as I am saying that the 72% damage boost from build up serves it a little better than the 11.5% boost per target yielded by Sunless Mire. The gap closes once more targets are taken into account, and widens again in Build Up's favor at higher recharge rates attainable by IO's. Looking at the numbers, I'm not sure a significant advantage is ever reached with Sunless Mire's longer length.
So yes, I am saying that putting the extra damage in photon seekers is more advantageous than changing Build Up. Build Up as it is is balanced with Sunless Mire fairly well, and to me it makes more sense to change the power that's out of balance: Photon Seekers.
Thematically, it's like the character absorbs the energy of their explosion and uses it to increase his or her own damage.
The idea also lets you get in a very good burst against hard targets by casting buildup after unleashing the photon seekers. Casting the nuke afterward on a full spawn or two would be... well... gratutitous.
Having said all that, however, I'm not completely sold on the damage buff idea as I've laid it out. It may be that more or less of a damage buff is a better balancer, and it may be something besides a damage buff that will help us. I'm intrigued by the prospect of the recharge bonus granted in lieu of extra energy damage, because it will help with everything from team buffs to damage via better attack chains to better mitigation via faster heals. Haven't really started to think that one out yet, though.
Better mitigation is another area where we've fallen behind, and it's noteworthy that my +damage suggestion for Photon Seekers does nothing to help that. How much the +recharge suggestion would help it is debatable, depending on what I come up with (when I get some more time).
EDIT - Here's the spreadsheet that reflects my suggestion, if you're interested. It assumes a 120 second recharge on Photon Seekers that, slotted for 95% recharge and benefiting from Hasten's 75% recharge bonus, comes out to 44.4 seconds of recharge. As before, Nova's damage considers that not all photon seekers go off at range, and is weighted as such.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
The mitigation discrepency is due to one simple fact: Eclipse is a unique power. It is a permable crashless "tier 9", click power that carries over into forms, that also recovers end on activation.
VS.
Lightform: Unstoppable clone, non-permable, severe crash (hp+end) "tier 9" click power that does NOT carry over into forms.
Here is an area where I think WSes might see a nerf coming as opposed to PBs getting a buff, unfortunately, as this power is significantly better than any other tier 9 defensive power (if only because it's permable) regardless of AT.
The mitigation discrepency is due to one simple fact: Eclipse is a unique power. It is a permable crashless "tier 9", click power that carries over into forms, that also recovers end on activation.
VS. Lightform: Unstoppable clone, non-permable, severe crash (hp+end) "tier 9" click power that does NOT carry over into forms. Here is an area where I think WSes might see a nerf coming as opposed to PBs getting a buff, unfortunately, as this power is significantly better than any other tier 9 defensive power (if only because it's permable) regardless of AT. |
Move along, folks! Move along!
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Whoah, now. Let's not start any talk of nerfing anything. Live and let live where eclipse is concerned, I say. Nothing to see here.
Move along, folks! Move along! |
Be Well!
Fireheart
Agreed. Nerfs lead to catastrophic screams of horror and random acts of nerd-rage. Better to Buff-for-balance, instead.
Be Well! Fireheart |
I warned of this (possibility of WS nerfs) when I challenged this forum to come up with a numbers analysis. You cannot, having provided said numbers, ignore one conclusion (Eclipse is TOO good) and just focus on another (Lightform needs help) without some kind of rationale.
The numbers show a discrepancy. I offered an explanation of that discrepancy as well as a valid way of resolving it. If we're taking that option off the table, and only allowing for buffs...I have several other ATs (scrappers and tankers, but brutes and stalkers and any other AT that shares those sets are welcome to join the petition) that equally deserve an Eclispe clone, TYVM.
Realistically, Eclipse is the outlier, not Lightform (aka Unstoppable, aka Power Surge), and thus the power most likely to get "looked at". Personally, I'd be ok if Eclipse got the Strength of Will, or Moment of Glory treatment (partial crash, doesn't accept recharge buffs, slightly weaker +resistance) as the Dev's deem those powers to be balanced with Unstoppable/Power Surge.
Again, don't mistake my intention: I would LOVE for Lightform to be more like Eclipse. I just can't logically say that ONLY Lightform deserves it. From there, logic takes a dangerous turn
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
[edit] At the very least, Lightform should carry over into the "forms" though. There is no real reason for that limitation on it. I say "forms" because Lightform is it's own character model, and I doubt that can be altered. However, it's a model with ZERO animations, so, it doesn't really matter what powers you activate while in it. (This, by the way, is an oft overlooked perk that only Lightform gets: no animations = no ROOTING animations. Activation times remain unchanged though as Activation Time includes Animation Time. Just because no animation displays doesn't change the fact that a power has an animation time).
Eclipse is also the tier 9 that requires you to put yourself in a dangerous situation before you can activate it, even if only briefly. It is the only tier 9 I can think of that is based on body count and is really pathetic against things like AV's. It also offers no mez protection, which lightform does. It does not provide +recovery like most tier 9's and lightform, but rather a one time endurance gain, which is a lot less valuable. Eclipse is balanced.
Edit: I really don't think Lightform is the problem or even has a problem, other than the fact that it should carry over to forms as well. PB's have some other stuff that helps them survive which Warshades don't, as in +hp and better healing.
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
Eclipse is also the tier 9 that requires you to put yourself in a dangerous situation before you can activate it, even if only briefly. It is the only tier 9 I can think of that is based on body count and is really pathetic against things like AV's. It also offers no mez protection, which lightform does. It does not provide +recovery like most tier 9's and lightform, but rather a one time endurance gain, which is a lot less valuable. Eclipse is balanced.
Edit: I really don't think Lightform is the problem or even has a problem, other than the fact that it should carry over to forms as well. PB's have some other stuff that helps them survive which Warshades don't, as in +hp and better healing. |
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
I, for one, think that Lightform IS great (while it's up). Eclipse is much better, most of the time. A teamed tri-form PB should very rarely be in Lightform. A teamed tri-form WS, should be Eclipsed as often as possible. That alone should tell you something is wonky (which many have said, and most agreed on, but now we see just to what degree of wonkiness).
[edit] WSes have the best heal in the game (variant of Dark Regeneration). I wouldn't say PBs have better healing... PBs have non-variable, non-circumstantial healing, which can be situationally better, but in ANY situation where the WS CAN use Stygian Circle, the WS will have the better healing.
Eclipse is also the tier 9 that requires you to put yourself in a dangerous situation before you can activate it, even if only briefly. It is the only tier 9 I can think of that is based on body count and is really pathetic against things like AV's. It also offers no mez protection, which lightform does. It does not provide +recovery like most tier 9's and lightform, but rather a one time endurance gain, which is a lot less valuable. Eclipse is balanced.
Edit: I really don't think Lightform is the problem or even has a problem, other than the fact that it should carry over to forms as well. PB's have some other stuff that helps them survive which Warshades don't, as in +hp and better healing. |
For anyone who's curious why I say that, do this: download the Warshade spreadsheet and enter "0" in the boxes for Stygian Circle on one of the mitigation pages. Even weighted for Eclipse, the survivable dps plummets to right around Peacebringer levels.
Eclipse and Light Form are pretty balanced, if I'm reading my spreadsheet right. Stygian Circle, however, is up more often than its PB counterparts and gives more bang for the click with minimal slotting.
HOWEVER, it is also the most risky of any of these powers to use, in that it gets used when you are (a) low on health or stamina, and (b) generally right in the middle of losing said health or stamina. With a PB's click heals you can jump away and use them and get the same results as if you were still in the thick of things. SC requires you to stay right in the thick of things right when you're most vulnerable.
EDIT - I don't have nearly as much heartburn with the discrepancies in survivability as I do with the discrepancies in offensive effectiveness (which actually include more than just damage, but then I didn't have the math or the time to compare spawn mitigation in addition to raw damage potential). One thing to take into account here is also the way in which a Peacebringer's inherent affects survivability vise a Warshade's. When a WS needs survivability on a team the most is when there aren't enough damage soakers/mitigators on the team. What does a Warshade get? More damage that really isn't needed. When a Peacebringer needs it the most (same situation), then all those other damage dealers push his resistance numbers to the ceiling. The mitigation spreadsheets should probably have taken that into account, but see what I said above about having the math and the time.
Maybe some other enterprising soul would be so good as to pick up the torch...
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
HOWEVER, it is also the most risky of any of these powers to use, in that it gets used when you are (a) low on health or stamina, and (b) generally right in the middle of losing said health or stamina. With a PB's click heals you can jump away and use them and get the same results as if you were still in the thick of things. SC requires you to stay right in the thick of things right when you're most vulnerable. |
EDIT - I don't have nearly as much heartburn with the discrepancies in survivability as I do with the discrepancies in offensive effectiveness |
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
Keep in mind those are single target numbers. When faced with a group, the nova's damage potential far exceeds that of the human form.
EDIT - it's more a testament to the power of Incandescent Strike and Radiant Strike than it is a condemnation of Nova's damage. |
And your comment about human form being the best for AVs, that's quite applicable as that was what I was doing yesterday.
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
I will add that any talk about changing Light Form needing to be carried over to Unstoppable and other Tier 9s should keep in mind that Unstoppable is not unusable 2/3 of the time, and does not prevent the AT using it from using 2/3 of his powers while it is running. While it SEEMS like a direct comparison between Kheldian powers and other AT powers should be straightforward, in fact it is not.
Just as a for example, it's been discussed either giving the three shield powers a toggle that will turn them all on at once, or allowing the shields to automatically be turned on by a toggle that would be added to turn off Forms. This suggestion led immediately to the observation that the other ATs will likely complain that THEY can't get a toggle to turn on all of their defenses at once. However, the Kheldian introduces a new element that the other ATs don't have to deal with, which is that changing forms turns off all of their toggles. Giving them a mechanism to counter this would not be unfair to the other ATs, as the other ATs don't have to deal with this limitation.
If Light Form carried over into the other forms, or granted some other type of advantage (such as, high defense in Nova form, but a large damage and recharge boost in Dwarf form) that would balance out some of the discrepancies.
Well...now that we have numbers and "proof" of the discrepancies, how do they go about fixing them? Will they go about fixing them? I mean they've pretty much maintained the status quo for the past 7 years...they can also run/find these numbers way better than we can and haven't done anything so far.
Smiling Joe, did you ever get hold of Black Scorpion? Any kind of response?
Me, to put Kheldians in line with both each other and VEATS, I would:
1) Give Dwarf Form Glinting Eye/Ebon Eye (epic tanks get Laser Eyes, so should Kheldians)
2) Give Nova Form its own 100% Build-up, shared cooldown with Human form 80% Build-up/Sunless Mire so you can't stack both (blasters get 100% build-up)
3) Give each Human Form shields 1 piece of mez protection, sleep, hold, stun (in line with VEATs and Sonic/FF defenders/corruptors)
4) Upfront 40% of the 140% potential damage bonus from Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance inherent (ala Domination/Invincibility-Unyielding episode), letting Human Form Kheldians base dmg go from 0.8 modifier to VEATs 1.0 (dmg buff solo)
5) Get rid of Dwarf form 20% damage bonus (dmg unchanged solo)
6) Keep the Nova form 40% damage bonus (dmg buff solo)
7) Cut the inherent team potential damage bonus in half, from 20% to 10% per respective AT teammate, from 140% max to 70% + 40% max if you're teaming with 7 tanks/blasters (dmg nerf in ideal 8-man teams, dmg nerf to Dwarf in ideal 8-man teams).
Changes, of course, apply to BOTH Peacebringer and Warshades, the only ATs in the game left behind by the circle of buffs that have been sprouting since ED.
1) Give Dwarf Form Glinting Eye/Ebon Eye (epic tanks get Laser Eyes, so should Kheldians)
|
2) Give Nova Form its own 100% Build-up, shared cooldown with Human form 80% Build-up/Sunless Mire so you can't stack both (blasters get 100% build-up) |
I honestly dont know why we cant. Technical limitation? Someone with a bug up their behind over letting us use things like hasten in forms?
3) Give each Human Form shields 1 piece of mez protection, sleep, hold, stun (in line with VEATs and Sonic/FF defenders/corruptors) |
4) Upfront 40% of the 140% potential damage bonus from Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance inherent (ala Domination/Invincibility-Unyielding episode), letting Human Form Kheldians base dmg go from 0.8 modifier to VEATs 1.0 (dmg buff solo) |
Also, just imagine all the shenanigans you could get up to if all the click powers could be used in forms. Hasten, Conserve energy, build up, the boatload of click heals...
Also, just imagine all the shenanigans you could get up to if all the click powers could be used in forms. Hasten, Conserve energy, build up, the boatload of click heals...
|
Or for Bright Nova to approach being like an actual Blaster.
That's why they'll never allow it.
...
A little.
Sort of.
Maybe a smidgen.
No, this was a great undertaking by Joe. All I did was give him a spreadsheet that did half of what he needed. Joe put some serious effort into this project, and deserves all the credit for these results.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.