Basically anything over 45% is a waste. For a shielder, you may want 47% just so your DDR can soak some stuff and keep you at the softcap, but really anything over that is a complete waste.
Most critters' base to-hit chance is 50%. The minimum chance to hit after defense is calculated is 5%. This means anything past 45% is wasted. Accuracy modifiers (including critter level bonus) are calculated after to-hit and defense.
There are a few critters with higher to-hit or to-hit buffs. Battle Maiden, Lord Recluse, and Devouring Earth are a few. Against those, you can just pop an inspiration.
If you don't want to feel like you wasted time going overkill on defense, redo your build for 45% defense and attempt to get close to 95% defense debuff resistance by getting Active Defense on a 60 second cooldown.
Quote:
This part jumped out at me. Just in case you didn't know, if your Positional defense is at the soft cap or higher, it really doesn't matter what your typed defense is outside of Psi.|
Originally Posted by DeathHarvester
Here is what I've got, Melee 62%, Ranged 66%, AoE 64% and all other defense is low to mid 30's.
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The reason for this is that when checking defense, an attack checks against the highest applicable number. So, if a ranged attack comes in that has both fire and smash damage types, here's how it would check to the numbers you gave: Ranged 66, Fire 30~, Smash 30~. Since Ranged def has the highest number then it would ignore the other two and check against range. A few Psi attacks don't have a positional flag on them, so that's about the only time it would matter to have a typed def outside your positional defense.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
I think it's reasonable for a SD tanker to get some buffer defense. However anything over 50% defense would be a waste.
Take a look at your build and decide what you think you could use other than Defense. Recharge, HP, and Regen for example.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Also kind of depends on how much Incarnate content you're wanting to run with. If you're going to be fighting a lot of +4 mobs, you may even want more than 50%. Probably not too needed, but something to thinka bout.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I thought +4 mobs got +0% to hitbuff but +1.4 ACC mod.
So, since the equation is ACCmodx Clamp (Tohit - Defense)
The tohit will still be 50%, defense still 45%
50-45=5% (it can't get any lower than that).
So, if my calculations are correct it doesn't matter having more than 45% defense even against Incarnate content (unless specified mob as some kind of specific tohit buff, say like Nemesis vengeance, etc...).
Arcanaville, am I correct?
Not Arcanaville, but yes, you're correct. Higher level stuff up to +5 AND higher ranked stuff (Lieutenants, Bosses) has the same chance to hit you if you have 45% defense as it would if you have 100% defense -- anything over 45 is not improving your protection against that sort of threat.
Some mobs get bonuses to-hit. Against those, even a LOT of extra defense doesn't tend to help, because the bonuses are generally very high.
Summoned pseudo-pets (notably Malta auto-turrets) have a higher base hit number, and as far as I've heard, one faction of enemy in the Incarnate task forces does as well. Against these threats, defense above 45% might be useful...but they're very rare (or largely inconsequential, in the case of turrets).
Lastly, defense debuffs that you can resist (some are not resistable) will be blunted by your defense debuff resistance, which Shield can get in sufficient quantity to be significant protection. In that case, a little extra defense (2-7% or so) can be worthwhile; getting more is seldom useful and tends to limit the rest of your build options, so I advise against it.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Hmmm, good to know. I thought there was a bit more to-hit on their part, as it sure seems like higher level NPCs are able to hit noticeably more. Of course, their damage IS higher, so maybe that's why I notice so much. 
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
Some of this is repeating what others have said, but:|
Originally Posted by DeathHarvester
I've got a SD/SS tank that I've built for defense. I see alot of people say just go for 45% for soft cap and leave it at that. Here is what I've got, Melee 62%, Ranged 66%, AoE 64% and all other defense is low to mid 30's. My S/L resistance is at 42%. So what I'm wondering did I overkill on my defense?
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Yes and no. For most critters that exist today, yes. Most critters have base 50% chance to hit, possibly with accuracy bonuses, and that means you cannot benefit from more than 45% defense (due to the 5% intermediate floor before accuracy).
However, before you go ripping out that defense, keep this in mind: you're a tank. You will be drawing more than the normal amount of aggro. You will be in situations you cannot just run and reset from. These things all create problems for a "soft-capped" player that a tank cannot easily escape from (that a scrapper, say, could just run and temporarily break off contact to mitigate):
1. Summoned pets and turrets. Like the turrets created by Malta engineers, or Frostfire's pets: stuff like that. These things all have 75% chance to hit.
2. Tohit buffs. Some you can't do anything about, like the +100% tohit from DE quartz crystals. 45% defense, 65% defense, either way you're screwed. But another common source of tohit buffs is Vengenace, aka Nemesis Lts. Having more than the soft cap can help against one or two stacks of Vengeance before it all goes pear-shaped.
3. Praetorian DE. There's a new critter in town, and the first we're seeing of him are the DE in tip missions. They are the new Praetorian special class critters that have base 64% tohit, not 50%. Walk into a full team-scaled DE tip mission, and you will be in serious trouble if your primary source of protection is soft-capped circa 45% defense. Even con DE bosses will be hitting you like 25% of the time: nearly four times more often than a truly soft-capped player would get hit by an even con boss. Your current positional defenses would floor these guys (at least until something spawned a quartz) and believe me: you will notice the difference. My MA/SR can tank the aggro cap of an assortment of minions, LTs, Bosses, and EBs in something like the ITF, and she melts in these DE missions in seconds unless I use lucks (at x8).
You'll have to decide if the build choices you've made are reasonable to get that defense, or if you want to give some of it up to build for other things. But on a tank, I would be cautious: the soft-cap is situational, and could get more situational over time.
Even if you choose to go for "the soft cap" I would leave some margin for debuffing. My MA/SR goes for about 47ish defense because even with 95% DDR I want some leeway for defense debuffs. At 47% I can eat up to -40% defense debuffs without noticing (against standard critters). -40% * 0.05 = -2%. That's still useful: defense debuffs will still hit you occasionally, and there are autohitting ones out there (i.e. Antimatter).
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My SD/SS Tank is at ~52% to all positions. 30-somthing to PSI I think.
The click power to get DDR is always double stacked.
I STILL get debuffed to nothing against some mobs, but in general Percy is not going to die unless the RNG decides its time, which does happen.
So, I am of the opinion that over 45 is not a waste, but that more above 45 than you expect to get debuffed is a good sweet spot.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
Quote:
Higher level critters hit more because they get an accuracy bonus which is applied after defense and to-hit are calculated. For example, 5% * 1.10 = 5.5%. I don't know the exact numbers but that 5.5% chance to hit you would be something you might see in your combat log against +1s.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Hmmm, good to know. I thought there was a bit more to-hit on their part, as it sure seems like higher level NPCs are able to hit noticeably more. Of course, their damage IS higher, so maybe that's why I notice so much.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
My SD/SS Tank is at ~52% to all positions. 30-somthing to PSI I think.
The click power to get DDR is always double stacked. I STILL get debuffed to nothing against some mobs, but in general Percy is not going to die unless the RNG decides its time, which does happen. So, I am of the opinion that over 45 is not a waste, but that more above 45 than you expect to get debuffed is a good sweet spot. |
You probably don't have 95% defense debuff resistance if you are dying to heavy defense debuffs. Are you running Grant Cover? Can you post your build?
Quote:
I do not use the membranes as that is considered to not be WAI.|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
... (you should if you double-stack AD with at least 2 membranes in it)... Are you running Grant Cover? Can you post your build?
|
I am running grant cover.
I do not have Percy's build handy.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
Quote:
Maybe not as intended, but it's certainly as designed and it makes a very noticeable difference. Tohit debuffs are something you can almost completely ignore; I've never had my Shield/Fire tanker debuffed by more than about 4-5% even on an ITF.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
I do not use the membranes as that is considered to not be WAI.
I am running grant cover. I do not have Percy's build handy. |
On the flipside most Hami-O's are getting pretty expensive so if your budget is limited then that may be a factor.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Quote:
Its not as designed: its as implemented. Its considered a bug, just not a priority bug to fix.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Maybe not as intended, but it's certainly as designed
|
Its worth noting the technology to fix this bug has not existed in the game for the entire history of the existence of multi-aspect enhancements.
Until now.
Take that for whatever its worth. I have no knowledge of the devs going back to fix these, but I wouldn't bet on them never doing so eventually.
And just to be clear, a lot of people will probably complain if they ever do, and they'll say once its been like that for a long time without the devs specifically saying they will fix it and give a timetable for it and sign it in blood, the devs have no right to change it and they need lessons in how to run a company and with everyone quitting the game they should spend their time fixing the real problems in the game. And I will, without passion or compassion, explain that bugs have no statute of limitations, and that this fix should have come as a surprise to no one, because everyone is supposed to know its a bug. Inferring that a bug unfixed is a statement that its working as intended has *always* been wrong in the whole history of the game. No one should expect that inference to suddenly be right now.
The only thing you can say is that using membranes in this way is not an actionable exploit. There's no punishment coming for someone that does this. But there's no guarantee the devs won't change how it works in the future to eliminate this feature. Use it this way only if you're willing to take the risk of expending influence on something that might change later.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Hmmm, good to know. I thought there was a bit more to-hit on their part, as it sure seems like higher level NPCs are able to hit noticeably more. Of course, their damage IS higher, so maybe that's why I notice so much.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
Higher level critters hit more because they get an accuracy bonus which is applied after defense and to-hit are calculated. For example, 5% * 1.10 = 5.5%. I don't know the exact numbers but that 5.5% chance to hit you would be something you might see in your combat log against +1s.
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For example, a +0 minion hits you at 5% when you're soft-capped; a +something minion might hit you at 6%...but you can't change that with extra defense. It's like the 5% minimum floor got moved on you. So you're correctly perceiving increased hits, but you don't need to / aren't able to offset it with more defense slotting. I usually use a technique called "punching" to deal with those cases.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Quote:
What, punching your monitor and cursing the NPC that just hit you through all your defense? Sure, I do that already. |
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Exactly. Up to +5, higher level critters do have a slightly higher chance to hit you -- but defense won't do anything to reduce that, once you've reached the soft cap.
For example, a +0 minion hits you at 5% when you're soft-capped; a +something minion might hit you at 6%...but you can't change that with extra defense. It's like the 5% minimum floor got moved on you. So you're correctly perceiving increased hits, but you don't need to / aren't able to offset it with more defense slotting. I usually use a technique called "punching" to deal with those cases. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
If that's not enough, you mouse makes a mean flail.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
What, punching your monitor and cursing the NPC that just hit you through all your defense? Sure, I do that already.
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An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Quote:
NERD RAGE|
Originally Posted by dave_p
If that's not enough, you mouse makes a mean flail.
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(sorry, it had to be said)
Quote:
Levels and ranks.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Hmmm, good to know. I thought there was a bit more to-hit on their part, as it sure seems like higher level NPCs are able to hit noticeably more. Of course, their damage IS higher, so maybe that's why I notice so much.
|
Increased Levels get an added acc boost; as do each rank - the percieved rank adds akin to the level so you see a color diff of a ltn even level being the same as a +1 minion. A +2 boss is +4 and so on.
Cimoreans are a cruel example in the ITF.
An example of it comes into play in this and on what you face.
The critter's base tohit is 50% - with most mobs not having a tohit buff. Devouring Earth and Nemisis are two examples of ones that do go beyond it with Quartz and Veng.
The minimum chance to hit is allways 5%, but those variables change that - and ought to inffluence you in what level of def you want.
For example, and AV or +5 will have a 1.5 acc boost (invented number, but close enough). Their minimum chance to hit will be that 5%x1.5=7.5%
Why would this matter? Repeated hits. Cimoreans specifically you need to watch out for.
If they have a -def effect, their next chance to hit can change. If you only have 45% def and a -5% def is applied, that's down to 40%. That means 10% chance on the minions; 15% for that painful AV or EB.
Tanks do have a defdebuff resistance, so that may only be -2 or -3%, but we're talking 16-18 opponents swinging. It adds up. 45% drops to 42% to 39% to 36%... keep it up and you'r toast.
That is why I run high. EA lets me run close to or around 80% during double-stacks, Cims can whack and land hits repeatidly, but they won't get at me more than that bare min chance till -35% def debuff or more is stacked somehow. At those odds, its hard to hit that - one thing to be thankful of a aggro cap limiting 18 to trying to kill you.
The other side of it is the Dark Dwarves you'll face in the ITF. They gain a tohit buff per hit on the mire; if they are hitting anyone else, even you they'll have a better chance per try. What was 50% critter ToHit could be up to 60% - you'll need 55% def to softcap that, not to mention dodging the -def from Cims... see where I am going?
Sure, you can softcap def at 45% and be safe at first; but you can't claim there is too much. More will just help ensure you can keep safer longer - where a tank at 45% will keel over fast, one at 55% will last longer, and if you are 65% and further above, it only leaves tless to worry about so you can do what you need to do easier.
Quote:
So help me, Recluse, if you two-shot me again, I am going to have to go Simon Belmont on this computer! Don't make me do it! |
Originally Posted by dave_p
If that's not enough, you mouse makes a mean flail.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Big_Chill
Levels and ranks.
Increased Levels get an added acc boost; as do each rank - the percieved rank adds akin to the level so you see a color diff of a ltn even level being the same as a +1 minion. A +2 boss is +4 and so on. ... Sure, you can softcap def at 45% and be safe at first; but you can't claim there is too much. More will just help ensure you can keep safer longer - where a tank at 45% will keel over fast, one at 55% will last longer, and if you are 65% and further above, it only leaves tless to worry about so you can do what you need to do easier. |
However, I think you are missing something if you are still arguing for about 55 or even 65% defense: other than in certain encounters, that is going to be way overkill. And heck, in certain encounters (like the jokingly referred to Recluse fight earlier in this post), tower-buffed Recluse can still hit you when your defense is higher than 65%. Thinking 75-80% defense is what you need to go as high as you can against him. Darn to-hit tower, anyway.
In other words, ~50% is enough for most fights. Anything more, well, that's what inspirations and teammates are for.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
It can't be overkill. I still can't do a damn thing about DE Quartz or Rularuu Eyeballs. I need moar def.
Quote:
I'm not sure if you're serious or if you're tongue in cheek there. You cannot get enough def to matter against those; both are I believe a +100% tohit buff. You'd need 100% defense just to bring them down to normal base tohit and 145% to soft cap. The only way you're going to see numbers approaching that is with multiple purple inspirations or multiple defense buffs from teammates.|
Originally Posted by Big_Chill
It can't be overkill. I still can't do a damn thing about DE Quartz or Rularuu Eyeballs. I need moar def.
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That being the case there's no point in trying to build that level of def; you can't get there anyway and it's way overkill for the mobs you can do something about.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Quote:
Piffle! You only need thirty-eight complete Touch of Death sets plus a single complete Gaussian's to get there.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
You cannot get enough def to matter against those; both are I believe a +100% tohit buff. You'd need 100% defense just to bring them down to normal base tohit and 145% to soft cap. The only way you're going to see numbers approaching that is with multiple purple inspirations or multiple defense buffs from teammates.
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For melee only.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Quote:
But then you've gone over the rule of 5.... WAY over. |
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Piffle! You only need thirty-eight complete Touch of Death sets plus a single complete Gaussian's to get there.
For melee only. |
No, even further over then that...
Yeah, WAY over there over------>
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I've got a SD/SS tank that I've built for defense. I see alot of people say just go for 45% for soft cap and leave it at that. Here is what I've got, Melee 62%, Ranged 66%, AoE 64% and all other defense is low to mid 30's. My S/L resistance is at 42%. So what I'm wondering did I overkill on my defense? Should I try to work towards something else at the expense of losing some of my defense to get? Also after certain point on defense is anything over that just a waste? Thanks in advance for any thoughts and suggestions you might have!
I reworked my build and here's the new build I came up with, let me know what you think needs changing around or suggestions you might have to improve it. Thanks!
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(3), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(3), RedFtn-Def(5), RedFtn-EndRdx(5), LkGmblr-Rchg+(42)
Level 1: Jab -- Hectmb-Dmg(A), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(17), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(19), Hectmb-Dam%(19)
Level 2: Battle Agility -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def(13), RedFtn-EndRdx(13), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(15), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(15), LkGmblr-Rchg+(42)
Level 4: True Grit -- Dct'dW-Heal(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(9), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(9), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(11), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(11)
Level 6: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(7), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 8: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(21), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(21), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(23), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(23), Mocking-Rchg(29)
Level 12: Phalanx Fighting -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 18: Grant Cover -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(29), Acc-I(33), Dmg-I(33)
Level 22: Boxing -- Stpfy-Acc/Rchg(A), Stpfy-EndRdx/Stun(42), Stpfy-Acc/EndRdx(43), Stpfy-Stun/Rng(43), Stpfy-Acc/Stun/Rchg(43)
Level 24: Tough -- ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpArm-ResDam(25), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), ImpArm-EndRdx/Rchg(27), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(27)
Level 26: Shield Charge -- Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(34), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(34), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(40)
Level 28: Rage -- ToHit-I(A)
Level 30: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(31), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(31), RedFtn-EndRdx(31), RedFtn-Def(33), LkGmblr-Rchg+(40)
Level 32: Maneuvers -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 35: Tactics -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(36), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(36), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(36), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(37), GSFC-Build%(37)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(39), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Armgdn-Dam%(40)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Haymaker -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(45), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(48), Efficacy-EndMod(48), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(48)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50), RechRdx-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Heal(A), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(7), Mrcl-Rcvry+(46)
Level 2: Stamina -- Efficacy-EndMod(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(46)